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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2007 : 10:28:52
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Dave,
I've been doing the Sarno work for over four years, a long time by any standard. The seven months referred to the time in therapy. Up until just a few months ago, I never thought I had anything physicallly wrong with me. Always believed 100% in the TMS diagnosis. 100%. But in did not resolve my problem.
As I said, the responses to my post have been most helpful. My problem began as TMS and has resulted in a very stiff torso. I don't think I'll be 100% normal if the TMS goes away tomorrow. I'd still be very stiff due to the inactivity. Why is that so hard to accept? My stiff, shortened muscles will not magically go back to normal.
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 10:49:11
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TrueNorth, You seem to talk about your pain as if you have experienced it different or worse than other people. Most of us appear to be almost flip about pain b/c we believe that focusing at all on the pain (adjectives, significance etc.) actually empowers it--fuel on the fire.
I try hard not to talk about my pword very much --here or otherwise-- but I'll digress for a moment. When I was bedridden last year due to pain and near paralysis of FMS(before TMS awareness) in retrospect I see now that the pain was serving me--at least at a primal level. It was removing me from my family: The very people with whom I didn't want to experience emotions about. Everytime I tried to go downstairs and sit with my kids, I got panic stricken and got stabbing pains all over my body. I had uncontrollable twitches. It was so humiliating and raw I had to retreat back upstairs away from them so they couldn't see how unlike myself I was. Serving the subconscious purpose ... avoiding the scary emotions I was harboring.
When I probed the complex emotions I was denying I started to end the pain cycle. It literally was like looking for something I absolutely believed was not there. but I found some stuff. It has been dreadfully painful emotionally, but I committed to keep looking and not blame my therapist for not moving me along at a faster pace.
I think it may be easier for some of TMSers to live with the physical pain than to continue to look for a needle in a haystack (emotions or contributing patterns/relationships). Perhaps this is your story? It has been nearly a year for me, and I'm still not completely there yet, but I keep trying and peeling the layers and changing my patterns.
Pain sucks ... plain and simple--emotional AND physical. I don't think my pain was any more severe or less than yours, but I choose to not let it vicitmize me anymore.
I know my ideas oppose yours, but I just thought I'd throw this out there to see if it can help you.
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have."
song lyric, America |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 11:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by truenorth
My stiff, shortened muscles will not magically go back to normal.
Not magically, but if you resume physical activity, they will. Our bodies adapt. The muscles adapted to limited use by shrinking. They will adapt to increased use by growing.
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 11:56:14
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TrueNorth, I want to add to what I wrote and explain why I went off on a seeming tangent: While I was Dxed with fibromyalgia doctors were thinking I had MS or Lupus. I was convinced I did too, but such Dxes are not always 1+1= disease. (I'm glad for myself, otherwise I would have been erroneously Dxed.) FMS is a symptom of MS and Lupus. For 2 years I was a die-hard believer that I had lupus, although I was never definitively diagnosed. I many other sx too, but as soon as I learned about TMS I stopped thinking "disease" and "Sx" and committed instead to drilling down emotionally. Even today, once in a while I will think for a moment that I really have some unDxed disease, but I let the thought pass and continue to believe in TMS. I do not have a disease, just harmless but equally painful TMS.
Our brains are so screwy ... they can make us believe or disbelieve whatever the unconscious perceives serves us.
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have."
song lyric, America |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 11:59:58
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| Sorry, duplicate post |
Edited by - truenorth on 06/19/2007 12:01:15 |
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Lizzie
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 03:00:39
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Dave
I see the logic of your Sarno "purist" views and wanted to ask if you did stretches before exercise? I have recently plucked up the courage to start jogging, but will not attempt it without lots of stretches first, partly because I think I am bound to get injured if I don't. I think this is part of my fear issues. I do not trust my body at some levels. I also for instance always have a hot shower to warm up my muscles at the start of each day. so far when running I have only sufferd the mild stiffness pain of using muscles in a new way that you'd expect after exercising. My point is, are these stretches sensibleor is Sarno saying all stretching of this kind done to prevent injury during sport, is not necessary?
Lizzie
Lizzie |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 06:05:25
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| I can see both points of view here, since im not a Sarno 'purist'. Sarno has nothing against stretching, in fact i believe ive seen him mention the benefits of physical therapy in his writings somewhere. The point is the reason and mindset in how and when it's done. I know where Dave is coming from, because i can sense in TrueN's responses his repudiation of the emotional basis, as much as he continues to deny it. I think you should be VERY specific as to what it is you think is causing "PAIN", just as Hillary requested. It's not enough to say stifness. Stifness does not cause pain per se, it merely inhibits movement. I think you'd have to be completely imobile for quite some time for true muscle atrophy or other physical problem to occur. In what context does "stifness" cause pain? Since i haven't heard a good explanation from TrueN, i have to agree with Dave on this. "Rigidity putting stress on lower back/sacrum" is classic orthopedic/chiropractic/PT talk, in short PHYSICAL/STRUCTURAL but without any specific scientific basis. It's the same talk i heard over and over from years of chiropractic/PT?physicians/surgeons. There's a fine line here, but im just saying from the TONE of True's initial post he has fallen into the trap of believeing the structural-basis, which most definitely is contrary to Sarno's approach. Just the way i see it. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 10:38:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lizzie
Dave
I see the logic of your Sarno "purist" views and wanted to ask if you did stretches before exercise? I have recently plucked up the courage to start jogging, but will not attempt it without lots of stretches first, partly because I think I am bound to get injured if I don't. I think this is part of my fear issues. I do not trust my body at some levels. I also for instance always have a hot shower to warm up my muscles at the start of each day. so far when running I have only sufferd the mild stiffness pain of using muscles in a new way that you'd expect after exercising. My point is, are these stretches sensibleor is Sarno saying all stretching of this kind done to prevent injury during sport, is not necessary?
Yes it is exactly what he is saying. There is no evidence that stretching before activity prevents injury. The fact that you feel this way is, as you recognize, part of the fear. You need to try your best to ignore that fear and reassure yourself that jogging is a perfectly normal activity that humans are designed to perform, and that you will not get injured from such a benign activity, and that stretching is not necessary.
I often look at the animal world for clues because they don't know anything other than instincts. Dogs wake up from a nap, and they stretch themselves out. This is normal instinct. Often I feel like stretching my shoulders out after being at a computer keyboard for several hours, so I do so. It's instinctive and it makes me feel good, so I do it.
But rigorous stretching exercise, designed to alleviate pain or avoid injury, is in direct contradiction to the TMS recovery process because it reinforces the false assumption that there are structural problems or that our bodies are delicate and injury prone. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 18:27:48
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| I agree with you to a point, Dave. But obviously if i spend months stretching so that i can bend my leg behind my neck (or whatever) and then i bend my leg behind my neck--i wont get injured! If i dont do the stretchintg, and try the same stunt--i will! So, stretching can most definitely prevent injury. The problem i see with Truenorth's post is he is unable to separate the two concepts in his mind. He began his initial post asking for a "reconciliation", when there is no reconciliation! If he is so convinced that there are both physical and emotional basis for his pain, what needs to be reconciled?? Just treat the two concurrently and don't worry about it. The only possible reason i see for him asking his initial question is that he infact at some level doubts the emotional underlying cause, and is looking for an "out". That's the way i see it, as someone who has dealt with the same issues myself for decades. So, in that respect, i agree with your advice to him. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:31:59
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When I first encountered Sarno's work, I concluded that my pain was a combination of TMS and physical factors (chronic overuse). Guess what? I didn't get any better for six months after that, while I kept believing that. It wasn't until I committed that anything happened.
Physically, my arms were somewhat weak after disuse from avoidance due to "RSI" pain, and I was told by a chiropractor I had extremely limited ROM in my neck. I treated with Sarno methods and actually stopped all the stretches and massage I had done. My limited ROM improved and my arms got gradually stronger with normal use.
If your stiffness is caused by TMS it's unlikely that there are any serious underlying physical issues. The body, released from maintaining tightness and pain as a distraction, will let go. If you feel like stretching, that doesn't contradict Sarno, but the rigorous program does. As for timing, you yourself mentioned that you have not really been doing the work for four years because you got sidetracked. Therapy takes time to work as well, separate from the Sarno work.
I don't know if you have TMS or not but it sure sounds like it. If you do, you ultimately need to believe that your body is a strong and adaptable machine that will do what you want as you gradually resume activity, and going to a special guy to stretch you out undermines that belief.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 10:24:25
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Armchair,
Thanks for the advice. I guess I'm not making myself clear. I've been at the Sarno work for over four years. I did NOT take a four-year break.
I have been working very hard the last twelve months, including seven months with a Sarno therapist. During this time, I did everything, and more, that Dr. Sarno requires of a patient. I read, journaled (over 300 pages), tried physically to release my anger, probed my past, tried to feel things-EVERTHING (including believing 100@ in the TMS diagnosis) and I've not getting better. Four years is a very long time. Eventually, doubt creeps in (as well as growing muscle tension and rigidity).
My dilemna is a simple one: After so many years of TMS work, maybe I have something other that TMS. And please, dont' tell me I have to believe harder in the diagnosis. I did for years and got nowhere.
The program has failed me, not the other way around. |
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wurstsalat
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 11:00:55
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Faith healing, as it sometimes appears to be with Sarnoists, is a bit of a two sided blade. I dont think you have to be a fundamentalist to be successful, that doesnt make sense to me, it would be in stark contrast to many comments from Sarno in his books where he sais we dont have to change our personalities, its more a matter of really believing in the connection. And everybody, just like me, will be disappointed from time to time, and some people just wont have TMS. TMS is a great concept and cure for many, but not everybody who has back pain has TMS.
I find it interesting that in Sarnos first book he mentions that slipped discs are NOT the cause of backpain, while in his more recent work he sais "rarely are the source of pain/may initially cause pain".
I think it is perfectly possible to have two layers here. Slipped disc pain and TMS on top of it because once has a slipped disc and the mind is clever to position TMS right next to it. I got rid of my TMS pain and what was left is mild, occasional, very rare pain that might or might not be coming from my physical abnormality.
I dont think one has to believe that the physical abnormality is not responsible for some issues, one just should not believe that the pain and suffering one is going through is due to the disc alone. At the end of the day having a slipped disc is harmless but might hurt from time to time, just like one gets a headache from time to time or a cold. I think its a almost safe bet that anybody with a physical abnormality can benefit from TMS treatment. But whether everybody will get 100% pain free .... i dont think that is necessary to validate TMS ...
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 12:31:40
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Wurstsalat,
You & Shary seem to be the only reasonable people left on this board. The rest believe 99.9% (toothaches? get real) of all ailments are psychogenic and if one doesn't get better with Sarno, simply blame the victim for not trying hard enough or believing deeply enough |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 15:47:47
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True,
I'm SO sorry you feel that way, about the system failing you. I'm even sorrier for the newbies who come on here looking for a little assurance.
So, through all the journaling and all the work, you never felt a drop better?
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 16:38:53
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h2,
I know my posts and my experiences are discouranging to other posters (I'm not a newbie-I've been visiting for over three years but rarely post). I did have a week of quasi-improvement in February, but have gotten worse since then. I truly believe my problem is psychogenic with a physical overlay. I know the purists on this board are aghast at that but not everything is pure TMS. I have focused greatly on the psychological in therapy and on my own and may be getting closer to the repressed feelings. |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 18:26:15
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True- I can relate to working on the TMS stuff and not getting better at all. In fact for me I had to work a long time, years in fact, before I finally realized what was going on. Although I did feel some profound sadness it wasn't until I got in tough with the repressed rage that I was able to make progress. Sometimes our defences are incredibly strong and it can be difficult to crack into the feelings that lie beneath.
I hope you don't give up on Dr Sarno's approach as I suspect that it is the way out for you. |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 19:12:30
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Miehnesor,
Thanks for the encourgaing words. I suspect you're right. Sarno did tell me a couple of weeks ago that my defenses were very strong. My therapist said I have more sadness than anything. Maybe. I think it might be more rage than sadness.
Thanks again. Your post has given me new hope. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 19:42:07
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quote:
Yes it is exactly what he is saying. There is no evidence that stretching before activity prevents injury. The fact that you feel this way is, as you recognize, part of the fear. You need to try your best to ignore that fear and reassure yourself that jogging is a perfectly normal activity that humans are designed to perform, and that you will not get injured from such a benign activity, and that stretching is not necessary.
I often look at the animal world for clues because they don't know anything other than instincts. Dogs wake up from a nap, and they stretch themselves out. This is normal instinct. Often I feel like stretching my shoulders out after being at a computer keyboard for several hours, so I do so. It's instinctive and it makes me feel good, so I do it.
But rigorous stretching exercise, designed to alleviate pain or avoid injury, is in direct contradiction to the TMS recovery process because it reinforces the false assumption that there are structural problems or that our bodies are delicate and injury prone.
There is a recent study....if interested you can probably find it via google, no time at the moment....that finds stretching prior to running actually increases injury rates...Stretching afterward proved to be a very slight net plus...
I sense a great deal of anger in some who have continued problems, and that's understandable. I find myself agreeing more and more with Dave's committed embrace of Sarno's approach. There's at least one important thing that I differ on, which is that if you challenge the pain faithfully, it to some degree does not matter whether you wholly accept Sarno's ideas. Bottom line, for most of us who find our way here, there are no underlying structural issues. You cannot hurt yourself by continuing to move in the way that causes you pain. Keep moving and you will almost inevitably get better in my opinion
Shary, no doubt I'm letting myself in for an icy blast, but it's ok. I can take it...You're one in whom I sense a great deal of anger...Are you aware of that in yourself? If so, do you think it mught have some bearing on your situation? If not, do you think it might be worth exploring?
It seems to me not a coincidence that those who acccept Dr Sarno's ideas almost always get better. Those who do not often have problems.. |
Edited by - art on 06/22/2007 04:34:40 |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 21:58:31
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| Art, I'm a little confused. I seem to remember (maybe in some of the old "Alexis" posts, you mentioned your degree of belief in TMS as about 50%, while she, the seeming skeptic, rated herself 80%. Am I remembering correctly? |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 22:17:33
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Hey wrld,
I don't see a whole lot of contradiction. I'm saying that those who accept Sarno's ideas get better. But there's hope for those with doubts as well.....as long as you don't shy away from the hard physical work of challenging the pain. The disadvantage to the second group of course is that there's more of a danger of symptoms returning in different form.
I've been around this forum long enough to have a sense of what seems to work and what doesn't. Wrld, you've been a "doubtist" for the couple of years I've been around, and you seem essentially beset by the same symptoms and difficulties as when you first got here. You're more open to tms it seems to me, but still fall well short of acceptance. You also (ducking my head for another possible icy blast) seem to have the same anger as others in your situation. I don't know, maybe they go together somehow...
My main difficulty with tms orthodoxy is the underlying emotional dynamics as I believe fear is as important as anger. I also understand the impeded blood flow hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis...
But bottom line, if you want to get better, just chuck it all and find a way to believe. Even more important, use your body as fearlessly as possible in the direction of its pain. The first thing doesn't have to be done perfectly (which is an area where I disagree with dave) as long as you do the second thing well...
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Edited by - art on 06/22/2007 00:11:02 |
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Also caught between psychological & the physical
