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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2007 : 13:58:06
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I need some advice from the bright posters on this board.
I went to see Dr. Sarno over four years ago about my back & foot pain. He confirmed that I had TMS and I began the education program. Even though I have a classic TMS personality and identified with many things in his books, I made no progress. I got sidetracked for two years with serious job issues and did only sporadic Sarno work. I called Dr.Sarno about a year ago and we agreed I needed psychotherapy, which I tried for seven months, again with little success. In fact, maybe because I've gotten closer to the emotional pain (deep sadness), my pain has gotten a lot worse over the last three months. I called Sarno again. He told me my defenses were very strong and recommended a therapist in Englewood, NJ.
I ran into a neighbor in my building a few weeks ago and discovered he was PT.I told him about my situation and he agreed to an evaluation. He had heard of Dr. Sarno, admired his approach and in fact had referred several people to him. He thinks there is a strong psychological factor to all back pain. His exam indicated I had severe lack of motion in my hips and hip flexors (I'm unable to lift my feet up to put socks on and can barely cross either leg).In short, as I suspected, I have pronounced bio-mechanical problems which have only made my pain a lot worse the last few years. I had a spinal fusion in 1978 but was pain free for over twenty years. The PT said I was as rigid as an 85 year-old man and this rigidity in my hips was putting a lot of stress on lower back and sacrum, contributing to my pain. Clearly I have to address this growing rigidity in my body. I began treatment with him to learn some stretching exercises. I'm only a week into it and already have an increase in my leg and hip motion. My pain is about the same. He said it might take six months of doing the stretching to see a reduction in the pain.
I'm 100% sure I have TMS and 100% sure I have functional problems with my back (I'm not refrering to disc or other problems, which I also have). Both things contribute to my pain. I confused about how to reconcile the two things. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
Edited by - truenorth on 06/17/2007 15:41:09 |
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momtoone
18 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 07:37:57
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| I do not think there is anything wrong with working with him. When you have TMS symptoms for a while your body becomes rigid because you are so afraid to move. I think the stretching will only help you not hurt. Anything to make us more limber will surely help with the stiffness/aches and pains. Just remember that this is a symptom and that is what you are working on...not the cause. |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 07:51:49
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| Thanks for the advice. It's very clear-headed and helpful. I think you're right about being stiff due to less activity. It's true in my case. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 07:55:03
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It is really quite simple.
If you see a physical therapist, whether for advice or for treatment, you don't truly believe in TMS.
Some might call this "purist" but it is the simple truth.
Step 1 in TMS treatment is to repudiate the structural diagnosis. You must accept the pain is psychogenic.
You simply cannot stand on both sides of the fence. Either believe what the PT is telling you or believe what Sarno is telling you. If you choose the former, then forget about TMS, because the two treatments are contradictory. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 08:56:29
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| I agree with Dave on this. It's so key to focus on what is causing the TMS, the shame, the guilt, your goodism, perfectionsism, your life pressures, etc. If you want to know what helped me, it was reading John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame That Binds You. |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 08:59:08
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Is it not possible for one to have TMS, believe they have it, and at the same time have bio mechancial problems? OF COURSE! That's why four long years of trying the Sarno approach has not worked! That portion of my problem is not TMS. What would you do if you could not put your socks on in the morning and were growning increasingly rigid in your torso? Keep trying the Sarno approach or do a little strecthing? I got no results from Sarno after four years. In fact, my pain level and stiffness increase with every passing year. Sound like to me there's more going on than a psychogenic problem.
Dave, this TMS thing is not nearly as black & white as you make it out to be. For many, yes. But not all. |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 09:05:47
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What helped me was believing truly in TMS and pushing myself to do all of the things I wasn't able to do when I was in pain.
However, I was not the most "in shape" person, so now that I'm recovered from TMS doing yoga, biking and meditation are definitely keeping me limber and keeing my eye on the prize of preventing TMS pain.
However, I think it's how you look at what you are doing.
If you are streching just to feel good, that's one thing. But if your inner dialogue starts to sounds something like this, "Seeing my PT is supposed to help. When will all this stretching stop my pain? What's wrong with me, why isn't this working?" then, you need to watch out. That's distraction from the true psychological.
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Shary
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 09:24:32
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Hi True,
I don't see the PT stretching and the TMS diagnosis as being mutually exclusive at all, but then I'm not a purist. Sarno is a smart guy and an astute doctor, but he isn't God. He doesn't have all the answers. Neither do the people on this forum. If they did, they wouldn't be here. Sometimes you can believe in a TMS diagnosis with every ounce of your being, and it still doesn't work. Or if it does, it takes a long, long time...which begs the question: Did I make it go away, or did it just run its course?
Stretching is the most natural thing in the world because our bodies are designed to MOVE. Perhaps you've gotten out of the habit of doing that because of pain. If the PT can retrain your muscles to work properly, so much the better. Meanwhile keep in mind that if you do have TMS, it tends to strike repeatedly if the underlying emotional problems aren't addressed.
Psychotherapy didn't work for me either. After months of seeing a shrink, I realized I was wasting my money. For one thing, he was telling me what I already knew. Also, I simply couldn't allow a stranger access to my more toxic emotions. It would take me 20 years to be comfortable enough with someone to be able to totally unload, and I don't have that much time and money. I suspect this is a common problem.
If you haven't already done so, try journaling into your computer. You type it, you read and absorb what you've written, and then you delete it. It's completely private. No one else ever has to see it.
This is all food for thought. The best thing you can do is be proactive regarding your body, and don't automatically buy into what hasn't been working. Not everything is a textbook case of TMS. |
Edited by - Shary on 06/18/2007 09:34:00 |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 09:40:12
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Thanks, Shary, for the excellent reply. No, Sarno is not God. His diagnosis of me (twice) did not take into account the many physical problems I have that, in my view, have nothing at all to do with TMS. This is why I began the stretching. Bottom line, I have to feel better and more limber. I must try other things.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 10:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by truenorth
I must try other things.
Then with all due respect, forget about TMS.
Dr. Sarno is very clear. Any physical treatment undermines successful recovery from TMS.
Thus, you are repudiating Dr. Sarno's diagnosis.
Of course there's nothing wrong with stretching if it makes you feel good and if you do it with the proper mindset. If you are doing it to relieve pain then it is contradictory to TMS.
Many people come here saying "Sarno is not god" and that's true. But it's also true that you can't believe in Sarno half way and expect to recover. You can't say "my shoulders hurt partially for psychological reasons, but also because my muscles are too stiff and I don't have good range of motion." |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 10:18:33
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You may be right, Dave. Maybe I should forget about TMS, even though Dr. Sarno has told me I have it, as recently as two weeks ago on the telephone.
But you never answered my earlier post-why can't TMS exist alongside a physical problem, perhaps as an "overlay"? Why such an extreme view that my condition is only TMS, and nothing else? How do you account for the extreme stiffness? And why, after seven months of therapy, does my pain continue? I'm not looking for direct answers from you but I need more than someone to parrot Sarno back to me as the answer. His approcach has not worked for me because I have TMS alongside of REAL physical problems that existed long before I had TMS. I believe the TMS has made the existing problems much worse, but is not the sole cause of the pain. |
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Shary
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 11:14:46
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Quote: You can't say "my shoulders hurt partially for psychological reasons, but also because my muscles are too stiff and I don't have good range of motion."
Dave, I think you can say exactly that. Just because the problem is psychological in origin doesn't mean that it can't create a domino effect that's purely physical. |
Edited by - Shary on 06/18/2007 11:18:58 |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 11:24:26
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"Just because the problem is psychological in origin doesn't mean that it can't create a domino effect that's purely physical."
Well put, Shary. That's exactly what I've tried to say, in a much less elegant way. |
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Shary
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 12:50:00
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Thanks, True. I frequently find myself butting heads here because I can't buy into the One-Size-Fits-All approach. Personally, I'm get a little tired of being told I haven't recovered because I'm not a Sarno purist, meaning I don't have enough faith.
Hmmm... where have I heard that theory before. Oh, I know. It was in a review for Rhonda Byrne's lightweight moneymaker, "The Secret." To paraphrase, if you really believe, you can acquire a million dollars. And then, if course, when the money isn't forthcoming it's because you didn't believe hard enough.
Do I smell snake oil?
For the record, I DID try a purist Sarno approach. It obviously works for some, but it didn't work for me. Overall, I've had better success combining his mind-body theories with other modalities. |
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LadyBug
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 13:11:42
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truenorth refers to emotional pain as deep sadness. Are we not all products of carrying sadness with us? The longer we live, the more losses (sadness) we'll endure. Why is it that other folks have lived thru exactly what I have lived thru and are not crippled with pain? I'm thinking specifically about one most horrid experience of my life. My best friend put a gun to her head and killed herself. I was admittedly, "toast" for several years. It has now been almost 17 years since this happened. I cried, I grieved, I went to Survivors meetings. I am still in close touch with her family. Of course other things have happened along the way, as they do in life. I have lost my Parents. Jobs. Friends. Opportunities.
We all suffer loss and sadness. Why do some of us react like this?
No Good Deed Goes Unpunished |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 13:33:38
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Ladybug,
In regard to
"We all suffer loss and sadness. Why do some of us react like this?"
I wish I knew. After seven months of working with a Sarno therapist, she concluded I had "deep sadness". I agree, I've written a lot about it, really tried to feel the emotions and got nowhere with it. |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 14:23:26
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quote:
The PT said I was as rigid as an 85 year-old man and this rigidity in my hips was putting a lot of stress on lower back and sacrum, contributing to my pain. Clearly I have to address this growing rigidity in my body.
Truenorth,
Your PT is treating the symptom of rigidity. But what is the cause of the rigidity? Have you consulted a doctor (physical and/or TMS doctor) about that?
If PT relieves you of your symptoms, fair enough. But shouldn’t you also be looking at the cause? (Or is the cause lack of movement because of the pain? In which case I guess you could consider the PT as an aid to “return to activity”.)
Hilary N |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 17:16:15
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I think I'm with Shary on this one. I think it was an old thread from Sean--or maybe someone else--that questioned why the TMS program as outlined in Sarno's books seems so straightforward; do the work and several weeks later (or months if you're a slow responder), nearly all will be healed. Well, if the TMS board is any indicator, that kind of black/white speedy healing is pretty rare.
Of course, maybe the board is not a good indicator because those who heal quickly, either see no reason to come to this board or don't even know about it. But, wouldn't there be at least some of these quick healers who would want to come on to give their testimonies?
I guess I'm not very good at giving 100% belief towards anything (even if that were possible) without the accompanying evidence. Don't misread this: I'm not saying I don't believe; it's pretty clear to me that there is a powerful psychogenic component to physical symptoms. All I'm saying is that I don't think it is logical or even possible to believe 100% in something unless you PERSONALLY have experienced the truth of it. Have these true believers had that kind of concrete evidence? |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 19:48:22
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I want to thank everyone for their helpful replies. I think it helped me sort things out a bit. I do think the severe rigidity is a result of the TMS muscle stiffness and not cycling the last two years, which I went back to this year. I still think the root cause of my pain is TMS. My particular TMS problem has brought on other, real physical issues which has made my pain worse, sort of the domino effect Shary alluded to.
For now, I'll continue the stretching (not a bad thing for a 57 year-old ex-athlete), continue the inward focus on my emotions and maybe see the new therapsit Dr. Sarno recommended in a few months.
Thanks again, everyone. |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 21:23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by LadyBug
We all suffer loss and sadness. Why do some of us react like this?
LadyBug, I'm so sorry about your dreadful loss so long ago. In response to your question above, I believe my brain chooses physical pain for me because of repressive behaviours I learned. I have higher expectations of myself than I have of everyone else. I was expected and taught to deny most negative emotions and created patterns of behaviour that have kept these hidden, and I have delusions of grandeur that somehow my contribution to the world will be intensely significant.... and yet I never developed the self-esteem to make this a reality.
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have."
song lyric, America |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 08:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by truenorth
His approcach has not worked for me because I have TMS alongside of REAL physical problems that existed long before I had TMS.
How do you know this?
This is a common trap. We try to "cure" our TMS and when it doesn't go away we give up and say we must have a physical problem.
Seven months is nothing. You need to take a long-term view if you really want to recover from TMS. Everyone is different. Depending on what kind of emotional conflicts are going on inside you, it could take years to undo the conditioning.
There is no doubt that TMS produces physical symptoms that are absolutely real. The pain and stiffness you feel is a real physical symptom. If it goes on for a long time you may have real physical problems that develop as a result of limiting your activity and range of motion, such as atrophy. In extreme cases it is conceivable that physical therapy may be necessary to recover.
But in most cases this is simply not true. Our bodies are miraculous machines. They will recover 100% from any injury, including any "physical" problems brought on by TMS.
The symptoms' origin is psychological, and unless you believe that, you cannot recover from TMS. You will be inclined to pursue physical treatments which just perpetuates the distraction.
Bottom line: if you really believe that you have "REAL physical problems that existed long before I had TMS" then you have not even reached step 1 of TMS treatment. And yet, you wonder why you don't show any signs of recovery.
You were diagnosed by Dr. Sarno yet you do not follow his treatment plan. If you don't want to hear that Sarno is the answer, then you've come to the wrong forum. |
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Also caught between psychological & the physical
