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Suz
559 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2007 : 11:39:19
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Hello all,
I called Dr. Sarno this morning to ask him about insomnia as an equivalent. He gave me a resounding yes and told me to go back to his psychologist who I was seeing 2 years ago. I stopped seeing her after I broke off my engagement and my back pain completely disappeared. I am very nervous to go back and see her because I found the treatment extremely uncomfortable and anxiety producing. Also, I feel that she encouraged me to get engaged and that turned out to be a very bad idea. I called the regular therapist I have been seeing since January after my boyfriend broke up with me. She was not happy about me ending the therapy but I explained that Dr. Sarno felt it very important for me to finish the therapy.
I am very nervous to go back to this therapy. I found that it made me hate my parents and that is why I stopped. I have been reading Dr. Sarno's divided mind book which has a very very good chapter on psychology and people's experiences with it. It seems that this discomfort is part of the process.
Have any of you had experience with any of Sarno's therapists? Did you go through this awful discomfort?
I would love to stop taking all my sleeping pills and get rid of this. I also tend to have anxiety which is not fun either. My insomnia started when I started dating my ex boyfriend last year. I am pretty sure it is because I was worried about being perfect enough for him - part of my goodist/perfectionist tendancies |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 12:07:23
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I worked with Donald Dubin, did a few sessions in person and then by phone. He charged $150 a while back. He is in Beverly Hills and goes to NY to consult with Dr. Sarno. He appears on Dr. Schechter's tapes but does not always agree with him, (as in my case).
I liked and felt comfortable with him. I have also worked with a non-TMS therapsist. He was old-school and did I did not like the experience. But I feel it speeded-up my "healing" process because I wanted to get it over with faster--the patient-therapist cunumdrum.
If your therapist was angry with you for switching, on Dr. Sarno's advice, maybe that therapist needs a therapist.
I find it somewhat unusual that a therapist would advise you to get married, against what your heart is telling you, but what do I know?
I would prefer to work with a therpist who makes the experience less than onerous, but who wouldn't?
Maybe you need to interview a few therapists until you find one that fits and resonates.
Good Luck!
tt
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Edited by - tennis tom on 03/26/2007 12:13:13 |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 12:19:07
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TT,
I worked with Dr.Sarno's therapist for 4 months 2 years ago - I thought that was a very long time. I was quite disturbed by her insistence that I was definitely in love with this guy and I ended up getting engaged which turned out to be an almighty mistake. This makes me nervous to go back. Dr. Sarno insists that she is very very good and that I should go back to her.
I don't really know what to do.
How come you only did a few sessions with Don Dubin? |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 12:55:10
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bill (truenorth)
I tried emailing you but it kicked back. Do you have a different email address?
Thanks
Suzanna |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 13:01:58
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That's all the time it took me to resolve my issues. I was in a relatively good frame of mind and living life productivley. He helped me resolve the powerful nocebo effect I got from my dx by Dr. Schechter (right or wrong) and reinforced in me that my understanding of TMS theory was correct.
The other non-TMS therapist I saw was several years later. My mindbody was in a much worse place--life caving in on me due to multiple life-cycle issuses as found on the Rahe-Holmes list.
At times like that one doesn't always have the luxury of interviewing and picking and choosing doctors. You just take the closest, one or the one you are referred to, and get an rx for lexies (NOT), or some other substance to quell the anxiety crisis.
If you can't stand the therapist, get another one from Sarno or hash it over with the therapist. You are the patient, the customer, the client. It's your money or your insurance money that you paid for.
It's easier said than done to be assertive with people wearing white coats or those surrounding themselves with note-pads with names of psycho-genic drugs on them, tapping on the telephone pad for 50 minutes having conditioned themselves to call 911 at the drop of a psychosis. Dr. Sarno is not God and maybe someone else here will have a suggestion for you. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 13:03:44
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If you have issues with your former therapist then, in my humble opinion, it may be better to consult a different one. But then, on the flip side, in doing so you may be running away from some important issues that need to be addressed. Either way you look at it just try to be as mindful as possible regarding what motivates you to react the way you do. Ultimatley that is the best that anyone can expect.
*************
Sarno-ize it!
************* |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 13:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Suz
TT,
I worked with Dr.Sarno's therapist for 4 months 2 years ago - I thought that was a very long time.
Maybe impatience is part of the problem. 4 months is certainly not a "very long time".
Therapy is not supposed to be a warm cozy chat. It is supposed to make you uncomfortable. Psychogenic symptoms arise because you are repressing things you don't want to feel. The therapist's job is to help you feel those things that your brain is trying desparately to protect you from.
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 13:49:33
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Dave,
You hit the nail on the head - luckily Sarno's new book explains the process a little and helped me go back. I do not like feeling uncomfortable emotions and so the experience does not have good memories for me. I thought that 4 months would be enough but I just went back through all my old posts and it looks like I have been experiencing all sorts of equivalents from fatigue to skin problems to allergies to occasional flare ups and now chronic insomnia.
It seems that it is time to finish the work off. I am just not looking forward to it! I especially dislike hating my parents - that is exactly what happened to me before. i walked around with so much rage that it was awful
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 14:38:27
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Dave,
You hit the nail on the head - luckily Sarno's new book explains the process a little and helped me go back. I do not like feeling uncomfortable emotions and so the experience does not have good memories for me. I thought that 4 months would be enough but I just went back through all my old posts and it looks like I have been experiencing all sorts of equivalents from fatigue to skin problems to allergies to occasional flare ups and now chronic insomnia.
It seems that it is time to finish the work off. I am just not looking forward to it! I especially dislike hating my parents - that is exactly what happened to me before. i walked around with so much rage that it was awful.
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 14:56:15
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Hi Suzanna,
I can relate to your reluctance to feel anger towards your parents in therapy. A few years ago (before I knew of TMS) I saw a therapist for a while who was very critical of my parents, and I found it quite stressful. While I realize that my parents did cause me quite a bit of pain, I feel they were struggling with the aftermath of terribly traumatic backgrounds themselves and doing the best they could under the circumstances. Since reading the TMS books I've also struggled with the knowledge that I have anger towards my husband and son, but I suppress it because it seems wrong somehow.
A friend recently lent me an older book that discusses therapy (it's mainly aimed at adult children of alcoholics, but applies to others as well) that has a section called "Protecting Our Parents: A Block to Grieving." It lists some different reasons why we may feel like we can't be angry at our parents. Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but perhaps there's a point or two that could be useful.
One reason can be that we may have grown up with certain family "rules" such as "don't tell outsiders what goes on in our home." I grew up with that (Mom was mentally disturbed and an alcoholic) and I know it instills shame in a child, as well as creates a feeling that loyalty to the family unit is top priority and if the child breaks that loyalty they'll lose their family. Either the family will be really angry at them or something worse may happen, such as a parent leaving or being removed from the home, the children being removed by authorities or kicked out by the parents, or someone committing suicide. Even if we don't expect some horrible outcome, just the fear of not knowing exactly what will happen if we acknowledge anger or pain can be enough to keep us covering up our feelings.
But even in families where there wasn't some big secret, there is still a sense of loyalty and a sense that we can't admit the flaws that existed in the family. Especially in families where some members are perfectionistic, there is a sense of shame that everyone wasn't really perfect and a need to cover that up.
Another situation that can make it difficult to acknowledge anger and pain is if we tend to be highly empathetic. We can readily imagine the pain, and possibly shame as well, that our loved ones would feel if they thought we were being critical of them or if they knew we were angry over something they did or didn't do. Because we can't stand to think about the possibility of causing them pain, we deny, even to ourselves, that they have ever caused us pain or anger.
As young children we desperately need our parents, even if they do have significant flaws, and that feeling stays with us as we grow, even when we are able to take care of ourselves. The ingrained need to protect our relationship with our family prevents us from acknowledging our pain and being able to grieve not having our needs met by our parents, both during our childhood and on into our adult lives.
We can learn to acknowledge the losses without necessarily hating our parents, so that we can grieve not having our needs met even if we understand why our parents couldn't meet our needs and empathize with whatever they suffered that prevented them from being able to meet our needs.
The book mentions that we may avoid feeling the anger and grief by simply "forgiving" our parents, rather than acknowledging the anger and sorrow we feel. Not that we shouldn't forgive, but we have to acknowledge our pain, even though that can be very difficult, if we want to move forward to wellness. And the forgiveness is much more meaningful and real when we have been able to face and acknowledge any sort of neglect or harm, even if it was not done intentionally.
The point of therapy is to give us a safe place to do that acknowledging. We may never be able to do it anywhere else, not on our own and certainly not with family members, but what counts for healing is that we do it somewhere. Getting our true story out allows us to move through the pain to the other side, where we can heal. I think that sometimes counselors do try to push us along this path too quickly, before we're really ready for it. But they do it because they know the value of acknowledging what we've missed, how we've been hurt. Perhaps they just don't think to tell us that we won't have to hate our parents for the rest of our lives, we just have to be willing to acknowledge the anger and pain that our parents caused us and then we'll move on to a place of not hating them, of being done with the anger and ready to let it go, rather than continuing to either feel it or stuff it. And we'll have learned how to acknowledge new anger and pain as it comes up, rather than stuffing it.
Hope things go well for you. Corey
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 15:01:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Suz
Dave,
You hit the nail on the head - luckily Sarno's new book explains the process a little and helped me go back. I do not like feeling uncomfortable emotions and so the experience does not have good memories for me. I thought that 4 months would be enough but I just went back through all my old posts and it looks like I have been experiencing all sorts of equivalents from fatigue to skin problems to allergies to occasional flare ups and now chronic insomnia.
It seems that it is time to finish the work off. I am just not looking forward to it! I especially dislike hating my parents - that is exactly what happened to me before. i walked around with so much rage that it was awful.
Suz,
My small two cents regarding your parents...It's ok to feel angry at them, even full of rage...The thing to remember about those emotions is that they ebb and flow with time and experience...If you love them, that's not going to change...I had to go through a period of seeing my upbringing for what it was, and part of that involved a certain amount of painful anger...But mostly I've worked through it...Now I tend to see my parents as flawed human beings who did the best they could...
I was angry when I needed to be. But it doesn't last. And it doesn't mean you're being disloyal, or ungrateful or anything along those lines...It's all about you growing into a better, stronger, healthier person..
My experience with therapists, or any professional for that matter, is that it takes very few sessions to know whether the person is a fit...If he or she is not, you simply politely walk away and find someone else.. |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 15:39:46
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Suz- I agree with the contributors here about accepting the emotional discomfort that goes along with doing the work. There really is no alternative to plowing through the feelings. What i've come to realize is that the process can be somewhat accelerated by actually having the feeling of rage right there in the therapy session rather then letting it out alone after the session. It took willpower to do this as I was and still am afraid of it. But I also know that the fear is the fear of a child not an adult and it must be challenged. Additionally I found that the expression of the rage was the key piece for me to feeling the emotional sadness and pain hidden behind the rage.
I can relate to the feelings of guilt at having rage at parents. I've found the inner child work to be very helpful with this guilt. Think of this as a gift you are giving to the child inside of you. What greater appreciation of love toward the child, towards yourself, then to give that child permission to have her feelings. This was a crucial shift for me that opened to door to feelings.
The therapist associated with Dr Sarno who recommended you get married didn't understand you very well. I would be tempted to find a different therapist.
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 15:47:00
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thank you Corey and Art - very very helpful posts. Being able to allow myself to be angry is the cornerstone of my healing. I hate it but I know it is necessary.
Corey - your description of why I avoid hating my parents is exactly me. I had a real struggle feeling anger towards them but I know now that it is ok to do that. It was really helpful reading Sarno's new Divided mind book that talks about therapy in detail.
The big problem I have with returning to this therapist is that she managed to convince me to get engaged to Jerome. I normally would not blame anyone for something like that and perhaps at the time, I was not able to be honest with my feelings. However, one is very vulnerable in therapy and impressionable. I intend to discuss this with her when I go back. I am not looking for any guidance on what to do in my life. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 15:48:33
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There's an article on the Creative Growth Center site (http://www.creativegrowth.com/teresa.htm) where the author talks about how she had to go through her anger toward her parents, experience it, in order to come to a place where she felt resolved. I agree it is hard. I have not been able to do it yet though I recognize intellectually that I did not feel emotionally supported.
If I were you I might go to a different therapist, since you probably feel that your trust was broken before. Although it might also help for you to go back to the previous one and talk with her about your concerns, and see if you could start a new therapeutic relationship.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 16:03:38
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None of my business of course, but I'm the curious type (polite word for nosey
Did you feel in your gut the therapist was wrong at the time? Do you think she gave you bad advice on the merits of the information you gave here?
If you think so, I'd be hesitant to go back to someone who's essential judgement I don't trust... |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 18:31:35
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TennisTom
Somehow I cannot imagine you seeing a therapist. In fact, I think most therapists could learn form you.....I could imagine, however, you deconstructing what a therapist would say to you.....
*************
Sarno-ize it!
************* |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 13:33:09
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Art,
That is essentially the problem. I have lost trust in her for being so insistent that I love Jerome and encouraging me to get engaged to him. It turned out to be a nightmare. It is hard for me to go back really to someone who I think read me wrongly. It is not the place of a therapist to tell you what to do with your life - way too controlling. I wonder though if the anger I feel might be wrapped up in the uncomfortable feelings she was bringing up in me.
Anyway, I went to talk to my current psychologist today. We talked about Sarno and I brought her the Divided Mind book to look at. The book states that the kind of therapy needed is Insight therapy - diving into all the childhood stuff. This is exactly what my therapist does. So I am wondering if it would be fine to stay with her. She understands exactly what I am looking for. She said that her therapy would probably not be as aggressive as the previous one. With the previous one, I had terrible anxiety - I imagine that is just another distraction my brain created.
I have to say that this Divided midn book is very very good. It goes into greater depth and has really helped me understand TMS. I managed to have a much better night's sleep and the insomnia was better. |
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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 14:42:05
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| The relationship you have with your therapist is at the heart of the therapy. In my book you absolutely MUST feel safe and supported by your therapist (which means feeling able to express any emotion with them without fear of being judged or 'getting into trouble'). This is VERY different to being challenged by a therapist or encouraged to think about things from a different perspective. You know if you feel safe and supported or not. If you don't, for heaven's sake find someone else! |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 14:42:52
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Suz, I have to agree with you that it is not the place of a therapist to tell you what to do with your life. It seems to be human nature to want to tell people how to "fix" their problems, but a trained therapist should be professional enough to help the patient explore the options and potential consequences without trying to tell the patient which choice to make.
I don't want to sound like I'm telling you what to do, but if I was in your position, I'd be inclined to go with the therapist that feels like the better fit at this time. Whichever therapist you choose, make the choice because it seems logical and right for you, not because someone else thinks it's right for you. As time goes by, if you decide a different choice would be better, you can always switch. |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 14:54:19
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It is a hard situation to be in. I really like the current therapist but she is not one of Sarno's and is not an expert in TMS. However, I just spoke to Sarno and he said that Insight therapy is what is needed. This is what my current therapist does. I am not sure that she will encourage me to feel the anger and sadness I need to. At the same time, she may be a little less aggressive in her approach which might be a gentler way for me to go.
Aaargh, this is a hard choice! |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 18:01:27
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quote:
Art,
That is essentially the problem. I have lost trust in her for being so insistent that I love Jerome and encouraging me to get engaged to him. It turned out to be a nightmare. It is hard for me to go back really to someone who I think read me wrongly. It is not the place of a therapist to tell you what to do with your life - way too controlling. I wonder though if the anger I feel might be wrappedup in the uncomfortable feelings she was bringing up in me.
Suz, I'd avoid her like the plague. There are some awfully sick therapists out there, and she really sounds like she's got issues. Telling you how to live your life is not what she should be doing. Trust your gut, the little voice within...Your little voice apparently whispered that this guy was wrong for you, just as it told you your therapist was not of sound judgement..
Trust your own inner wisdom and you'll be fine. |
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Pyschologist question.
