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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2007 : 00:17:21
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quoting Alexis,
"Can you help tell me if I am somehow not being clear, because these folk seem to be completely incapable of understanding what seems to be very clear language. Have I explained something wrong or is it just not possible to explain these things to people who actively want to be unquestioning religious fundamentalists?"
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Alexis, you are not being clear, but that was better.
It's ok that you don't know about Jeeps, I have no clue what "IE" is.
Could you answer a question for me, which of Sarno's books have you read and how many times ?
You have every right to question Sarno's theory but anyone also has the right to rebut your contentions.
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Edited by - tennis tom on 02/19/2007 08:09:32 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 05:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
quoting Alexis,
Could you answer a question for me, which of Sarno's books have you read and how many times ?
You have every right to question Sarno's theory but anyone also has the right to rebut your contentions.
If you want to "rebut my contentions", please address points I have made rather than attempting to attack me through a back door that is not pertinent to the logic of what I have said. And be very careful about what you assume from my refusal to discuss something irrelevant to my points just to make you happy. Anyone, btw, who doesn't understand the logical fallacy in play here, isn't going to understand the rest of the conversation anyway.
I'm sorry, but you're not even trying (as Art did once pointed out) to address the points raised, but rather you want to change the subject. I'm obviously not going to switch from actual points of fact and debate to a claim I don't understand as well as you because you read a book 4 times. "Slowly".
The fact that I'm fed up with this conversation does not imply that I "cut and run" from the board, only that I have better things to do. than debate with someone who doesn't know the rules.
For anyone who actually was trying to follow what logic there was here, the original thread was here:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3083&whichpage=2
In moderated lists I've worked with normally a split topic is moved over by the moderator to maintain logic flow, but I guess working alone Dave probably doesn't have time to do that. |
Edited by - alexis on 02/16/2007 05:52:54 |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 06:49:35
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I have to re-iterate that the only people associating Sarno supporters with Religion, cults and God are Alexis and WrdTrv.
I'm not attacking you guys, I just think that if I feel one heals a lot better from attempting to believe the TMS diagnosis 100%, that doesn't mean I'm worshipping anything. Just means I had to try to believe it 100% to push myself past the "pain boundaries" and resume normal activity.
Alexis, I'd like to ask if you've read any Sarno books.
Also, the original opinion expressed by mizlorinj was that doubters on this board hinder the progress of those people new to the diagnosis and trying to believe in the TMS diagnosis and get better.
I don't see how that couldn't be true. Doesn't mean it's good or bad, just that it's true.
Thanks, Alexis, WrdTrv and TT for keeping this board interesting!
Regards,
Beth |
Edited by - h2oskier25 on 02/16/2007 06:50:37 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 07:30:04
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Hi wrldtv, I think your understanding of the TrueBeliever type sounds right to me. My worry is that both here and elsewhere it seems that this type often cannot tolerate the existence of those who are not TrueBeliever's, as this undermines their needed faith. The question then becomes whether or not the two groups can coexist.
Beth, your question seems reasonable (if slightly surprising), as a person who has not read any Sarno should not be on this board for much longer than it takes to ask where to get the books. So the answer is yes. Since I don't remember everything anyone else has said, I don't expect others to remember that I have quoted Sarno on many occasions. Why you particularly think I haven't read Sarno, I'm not sure.
I have had to rely on the library and inter-library loan for most of the books I have read in my recovery, but I have dog-eared and underlined in the only Sarno book I personally own. My library (as an aside) actually had Healing Back Pain in the main display rack, which, given their record keeping, made that one a particular challenge to find. Probably a good sign, though, that it is popular enough to make it to such prominence.
I agree that questioning the need for absolute faith can be somewhat challenging for those who need it, but I think that there are enough of us who do not live by this method, and that we are valuable enough to society, that we should be allowed to coexist. This asks for some compromise on the part of the True Believers (of all types), but I think, so far, that most could make that compromise if the wanted to. If they aren't able to deal with facts -- like that some of us have gotten better without absolute faith -- I think there may be other more serious problems looming on the horizon. |
Edited by - alexis on 02/16/2007 07:37:39 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 08:12:29
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Alright now we're getting to the meat of the matter. Sorry I didn't get back to your rebut to my rebut but I was busy driving across the state of Nevada yesterday and boy was the scenery awesome in the Big Basin.
The rules to my thread are you can't post unless you name at least one other board member as a TMS Tag Team Thread Partner. I name H2O as my partner and alternate if I am indispoesd for food or pottty breaks. Alexis, you have unofficially named Art as your tag-team partner and if we go to Triple Tag-Team TMS I name WorldTraveler to your team.
At any time the desingnated team captain may divorce a team partner by saying "no-fault--you're divorced from my team--you idiot--no-fault" while simultaneoulsy clicking your high-heels three times, (Holly is exempted from the high-heel rule until it's resloved if her neuroma is TMS or stuctural). You have 4 (or 5) "no-fault TMS partner divorces". This is based upon the Southern Marin Marriage System (the first 4-5 don't count) recently upheld by the 9th Circuit.
Alexis, your suggestions are well taken and a forum button exists for "Help and Suggestions". Beware of the cob-webs and moth-balls there. Perhaps you could volunteer to help Dave reformat the fourm, "carpe diem tahama", to quote the noted Greek scholar and pol Clint Eastwood.
A while back Dave put up a thread asking for "ideas" for reformating the Forum. In fairness to you, I think it was before you're time. I would suggest you do a search for it as it had a lot of good ideas especially mine.
Some of them were that sub-sets of the forum could be by political party; Dems, Repubs, Greems, Petas, anarchists (my affiliation), etc.
Or by religion, make of car, (I would love a Jeep TMS sub-set to discuss if your friends Heep issues are TMS or structural. I'm glad to report my Heep after 8000 miles cross-country is TMS free (probably because I keep a copy of MBP in the glove box. Perhaps your friend needs to see a TMS mechanic to determine if her Heeps issues are psychosomatic or stuctural. I reccommend PaulT who was an active board member and appears in Sopher's chapter in TDM.
Alexis, yes it would improve your understanding of TMS if you were less rational Sarno would probably agree with that, you ask him, I don't want to put words into his mouth. Whose Rules of Rationality are you using so we can all be on the same rational page.
Many of us (H20 & me) are starting to suspect that you do not posesess a copy of Sarno but have only read reviews on Amazon. We are making an official Full Moon Challenge (it's in the by-laws) that you produce a dated copy of your receipt or a library card within 48 hours emailed to Dave.
Your team's turn, I'm gonna' pop a pop-tart and watch Denise Austin, she has some special exercises this morning for bra over-lap. Luch break is at noon PST. Carry chains.
Brevity in posting would be greatly appreciated. For a reference the rule will be no posts with a word count longer than any of mine will be allowed. A one time 1000 word over-run will be allowed.
Editing posts will be allowed only if they substantialy alternate the meaning of the thread but not to correct spelling.
The winner of this thread will recieve a cranial-sacral therapy session by a famed practitoner who at one time was Anna Nicole Smith's personal C-S therapist.
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Edited by - tennis tom on 02/16/2007 08:37:33 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 08:30:08
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Hey folks, here's a fun activity:
1. Type the following in Google or your favorite search engine: "Do you even own a Bible?"
2. Read enough to know just who says these things and why.
3. Wait for moment of enlightenment. |
Edited by - alexis on 02/16/2007 08:36:34 |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 09:41:04
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Boy Alexis, you are just SO determined to get some us labeled as religous zealots, aren't you.
Seriously, though. I have a question for you, that I hope you'll take seriously, because I mean it seriously and I think it speaks to the heart of what a lot of people come here for.
Here's my question. If you don't believe Sarno techniques 100%, and don't think it's necessary to do so, does that mean you think your RSI is at least partially due to a physical disease, weakness or malady?
Beth |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 09:42:41
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TT, I respectfully and enthusiastically agree to be your Tag Team partner. Do we need to meet electronically for practice work-outs?
Beth |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 09:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by h2oskier25
Here's my question. If you don't believe Sarno techniques 100%, and don't think it's necessary to do so, does that mean you think your RSI is at least partially due to a physical disease, weakness or malady?
I mean a few different things. But in reference to my RSI, I mean primarily that I began to see significant benefit at the start when I believed, at best, probably 50%. This is why I chime in to people who are struggling by pointing out that even with very low belief, I had very significant improvement.
How much do I believe now? It waivers. A good deal more than 50%, but less than 100%. Why? Because I think that the various activities I undertook after reading Sarno could account for recovery in a number of different ways. See the discussion earlier on new theories for treating tendinitis. Simply using my hands, because of Sarno's recommendations, could have just played into the idea that you should keep active rather than resting when you have tendinitis. If I had to pick an explanation, I would pick Sarno's theory first. But I don't think it is the only explanation.
Whether or not I had a physical injury, however, is irrelevant to the discussion. What is relevant is that I believe it could be true and yet I am obviously typing away now with no problem. 100% faith was not necessary for me.
Note that there is a lot more to this, and I am just picking an example as an illustration. I also, for example, believe mostly in most parts of Sarno's theory, but fairly strongly believe some parts are inaccurate. This is a different version of the 100% question.
I don't believe this will necessarily be the case for everyone. Some people need 100% faith. I have no problem with that. I think, however, that those who do need to believe 100% in 100% of what Sarno says should also try as hard as they can not to have a problem with me and my progress. This is an exchange of courtesies. I am not being offered that basic courtesy, and that is the only reason any of us feel the need to dig down to the root of what is causing people to refuse to accept our side of the story. |
Edited by - alexis on 02/16/2007 10:00:28 |
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EileenTM
92 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 11:11:47
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| I don't usually get involved in political discussions because they are often exercises in futility. And I don't often try to educate others about Sarno unless they seem like they might accept the idea. However I cannot resist throwing in my 2 cents worth. The bottomline is that Sarno's principles work for me and my family and the few friends we have given the books to. That is all I care about. If someone wants to argue it, I think it is a waste of my efforts and theirs. I am just SO GRATEFUL that is works for us! And we can get on with the fun of living our lives. I visit here to get support because I am a social being. It is a good reinforcement for me to hear success stories. i have a tricky little brain with eclectic symptoms. If it takes 100% belief for this to work, then so be it. A pain free life is worth it! I will never forget my husband who could hardly walk from sciatic pain. He read the book and voila, the next week he was back to running. That was better than any doctor did for him. |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 13:23:43
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Eileen,
Great Post.
Now THAT's the kind of post JohnO was probably expecting to reply to his original topic!! 
Beth |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 14:36:57
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Good lord people. Not even Sarno thinks you have to 100% agree with him. His theory is a theory. The question about acceptance is very much separate from whether you, say, agree that rage is the exact emotion causing the pain, or that temporary ischemia is the mechanism. That's the stuff of interesting debate and I don't think anyone needs to feel threatened by that kind of debate.
The other question about acceptance is more relevant, but I don't think that there are, actually, any zealots around here in either direction. You guys are just getting into the typical back-and-forth simplification, animus, and focus on irrelevancies that comes out on Internet message boards when you don't actually get to talk to the people you're dialoguing (arguing) with.
I think that each of us arrives at a point where we assimilate the material thoroughly enough that we have our own working picture of how the theory relates to our pain. At that point, whatever our model is, it works for us, and that's when we start getting better. For some people this may mean that they agree with Sarno 100% on every point. For some it may mean that they wonder if it is exactly true and what the mechanism is, nevertheless they see that it applies to them and they get better. When someone does not accept that the theory in its essentials applies to them and their specific pain, i.e. when they have no working model in which their pain is under the control of their unconscious and can be circumvented by conscious knowledge and behavior, they do not get better.
Una fe sin duda es una fe muerta. --Miguel de Unamuno (A faith without doubt is a dead faith.)
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 20:39:06
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quoting Alexis:
"I have had to rely on the library and inter-library loan for most of the books I have read in my recovery, but I have dog-eared and underlined in the only Sarno book I personally own. My library (as an aside) actually had Healing Back Pain in the main display rack, which, given their record keeping, made that one a particular challenge to find. Probably a good sign, though, that it is popular enough to make it to such prominence."
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From your evasive answer to the question of what Sarno books have you read and how often, I conclude your "read" of the Good Doctor is limited and you have not read his latest book THE DIVIDED MIND. Alexis, would you please answer that question. It is very pertinent to any and all discussions about TMS theory and your ability for a complete recovery.
Good science is having all the information currently available. If you have NOT read TDM, then you are missing a great wealth of new information, not just from his clinical studies, but also the studies from other TMS doctors, psychiatrists and psychotherapists, who contributed to this latest text on TMS.
If you have not read THE DIVIDED MIND then you are using an old "prescription". The new and improved "mindbody prescription" is at least 50% more effective than past forms of "knowledge penicillins" and is absorbed much faster. Your TMS rx may be out of date and need a refill, check your copyright date.
I feel the erroneous information you may have been given about the efficacy of Dr. Sarno's medicine may have come from second-hand sources such as Amazon reviews which leaves a tell-tale signature similar to DNA.
Hope this information speeds your full and 100% recovery. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 21:39:58
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| ACL, I respect your efforts at mediation, although I disagree with your diagnosis of the situation. However, since I've committed to only addressing actual points from TT (rather than, say, bizarre requests that I mail Dave copies of my library card and accusations that I am lying about owning a book) I think we are probably safe from further discussion on these issues. I'm actually tuning out this thread, so please forgive me if I don't answer if you post here again. I do respect your opinions a good deal, so it's not anything personal...just time to move on to a saner universe. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 21:52:32
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So Alexis, I take that as a NO I have NOT read THE DIVIDED MIND and that your opinions about TMS are based on incomplete and limited research and second-hand sources.
H20, tag, what's your call? |
Edited by - tennis tom on 02/16/2007 21:55:36 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 22:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
So Alexis, I take that as a NO I have NOT read THE DIVIDED MIND and that your opinions about TMS are based on incomplete and limited research and second-hand sources.
H20, tag, what's your call?
Tom, you're an idiot. First you claim (repeatedly) I am out to bash and tear down Sarno. When that is obviously untrue you make condescending remarks claiming I am "cutting and running" when I said nothing of the sort. When I point out your inconsistency you ignore it and claim I have read no Sarno and ask me to produce proof in the form of receipts and library cards! When you decide maybe that isn't the case you say I haven't read TDM. When I tell you I have you will ask how many times (I've only had it 2 weeks, btw, how many times do you think?). Regardless of what I say, though, you will than ask how slowly and did I meditate on each word while facing Mecca New York.
And you know what? None of this was even remotely relevant to any of the points I made. My disagreements with Sarno are much deeper than issues addressed in any of his books. Do you even know what an eliminative materialist is? If you did, you would know how fundamental some of my issues are. Why don't you go read a book or two on the subject and get back to me? Note that I have never tried to hash out these issues here, which would be chopping at some basic underpinnings of the whole system. So read this carefully NOTHING SARNO SAYS IN ANY BOOK ADDRESSES THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES I HAVE WITH THE THEORY. And remember, basically I support the theory. Regardless, you're going to answer this email with "Oh, so you haven't really studied TDM..."
And as for your current ploy to twist the conversation into some sort of concern for my health. Lord, man, do you think I'm unhealthy? Do you think you are doing better than me? Really, do tell? (actually, don't bother. I'm actually temporarily blocking this site as soon as I finish posting. I'll let you bash me in peace. I've got real work to do and will be back when I can afford this.)
By the way, you have now twice accused me of quoting from Amazon. I addressed that the first time you said it weeks ago. Jesus Christ, I have a frigging graduate degree. I've been paid to do research. Are you some sort of imbecile?
You are a fundamentalist (your own word) zealot (mine) and a menace to all sanity on this board. But you dominate it and there's not a damn thing any sane person can do. You don't give a **** when people point out how many people you've driven off this board. You select what you want to hear. Some of those who could tolerate your bull**** long enough to stay around tell you you helped them. I'm sure they'll come running to your defense. And that's the only part of all this you will hear. Some doctor who, probably just to humor you, once praised your understanding of Sarno. You waive this like some banner. Grow the hell up.
But you know what, I still recognize you have helped some people. Jerry Falwell has helped some people. I'm sure there are people going around saying how much Osama Bin Laden helped them. This fanaticism is your life and you aren't about to let it go. THAT is why I'm not going on with this conversation. But none of it will sink in. Not one word will reach through that thick skull.
Note: My feelings about Tom should not be in any way interpreted as criticisms of John Sarno. This is all about Tom. |
Edited by - alexis on 02/16/2007 22:43:04 |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2007 : 08:10:13
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Umm.... OK ....so who's the zealot now ? 
Beth |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2007 : 09:32:12
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Alexis, WOW, now we're getting somewhere! That was your BEST post here by far! Too bad you're cutting and running now that the party is starting. It sounds like you need a good party. Even those suffering from TMS need to party sometime.
I would have thought the title of this thread would have indicated where we were going with this...the wild-side of the TMS moon.
The theme of almost all your posts here is that Sarno is not good science. But how can you say that if you have not tried the latest faster-acting formula THE DIVIDED MIND?
Your answer to my question is still evasive. You said you have had TDM for two weeks. I had my copy sitting around for awhile in high anticipation of the right momnent to crack it open in the hot-tub.
So, me being an idiot, imbecile, etc, etc, you still have not given a direct answer to my simple and direct question have you read TDM?
I will take your cutting and running as a NO. So then, in simple words, you don't know what you are talking about but drop dribs and drabs of nocebos around the board based on your faulty science. A good example is JohnO's very positive post after dx'ing with Dr. Sopher. Everyone was celebratory but you.
I don't have all day to answer your posts. If there were questions there I missed them or in my simplemindedness didnot understand them.
I do have a life out side of this board. I have a successful business with clients from around the world, I play tournament level tennis, I have a lovely lady-friend, I just drove 8000 miles back and forth across this beautiful country and enjoyed every minute of it.
So no, I don't have time to pore over your posts, which to me are mostly pedantic jibberish (remember you fired the opening salvo with "idiot", I think half-wit a bit more poetic). If I would have perceived a question from you, I would certainly have attempted to answer it. I try to answer anyone's TMS question here as you can see.
Your posts remind me of arguing about how many angels you can fit on the head of a pin, maybe a fun way to spend a Saturday night but irrelvant to my way of thinking.
As for driving people off the board, pity, but so be it. One direct question to you: Have you read THE DIVIDED MIND? the fundamental premise of everything we are talking about here, and you run. Maybe that's your pattern, I won't speculate on your entire life since I don't know diddly-squat about you and your posts only reveal that you are a brainac (remember "imbecile"?)--you started the name calling. I had canceled my e-mail address in my bio to encouage people to have the discussion here, but for you I will re-instate it, so you can tell me how you really feel about me. I'd like to see what other choice words are in your vocabulary besides "eliminative materialist".
As for the mobs of people I have driven from this board, as Dr. Sarno says, most people won't accept TMS and most people won't accept me. So don't read me. Read those who don't put any heat on you and disturb your homeostasis by asking an occasional tough question, like have you read your Sarno today, and taken your TMS medicene? What would your doctor say to you if you told him you weren't taking his rx as he had prescribed? By the way, Dr. Sarno's newest "knowledge penicillin" TDM, although much faster acting than prior formulations, takes longer to be absorbed by the mindbody on a cellular level than two weeks. I recommend the minimum of eight weeks slowly then re-read if symptoms persist, (remember it took along time for your mind to give TMS psychosomatic synptoms to your body).
There are several other TMS boards. Tarpit has one and Monte has one. For those that can't stand the thought of being in the same URL as me they might want to take their TMS party over to one of those, I promise I won't crash it.
That's all for now. I just got back to sunny NorCal yesterday and need to smack some balls. I have a game of dubs lined up with Jerry and Osama (they're a lot nicer than some of the denizens of the challenge court.)
I repeat Alexis, that was your best post here by far! I hope you keep up the good work somewhere if not here.
Adios,
tt
also known as the idiot, imbecile
(dang it my coffee got cold)
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Edited by - tennis tom on 02/17/2007 09:53:14 |
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kilton
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2007 : 10:38:40
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How about you two take it to email? It's clearly personal at this point, and therefore off-topic (IMO).
You both seem to be spending a lot of time trying to prove you're more intelligent than each other. Perhaps these endless "debates" are just a way of distracting you from something, just like TMS symptoms do. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2007 : 10:53:48
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Kilton your point is well taken. I feel the discussion is relevant to TMS because Alexis has questioned aspects of TMS theory and part of the discussion is about that trying to clarify those issues.
Another aspect of it is life is not always pleasant, (a big source of TMS pressure), so why should this board not reflect that reality. I feel a lot of TMS'ers have an in-ability to deal with life's unpleasant situations. We will unfortunately be encountering more of these TMS inducing situations as our spaces become increasingly crowded by the population bomb.
We might as well start getting used to it. Seeing it here on ocassion will be a good conditioning for it. It's only a TV screen and the worst that could happen is someone might kick it in or throw it across the room. It's not like real bullets or knives are flying.
By starting a new thread here as Stryder so correctly advised, we can contain the party to here so that those who need to wake-up early in the morning won't lose any sleep.
I'll try to put a warning discalimer in the title, so those who may be sensitive to ocassional nastiness and squabling may be forwarned.
Cheers,
tt |
Edited by - tennis tom on 02/17/2007 10:59:12 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2007 : 11:07:30
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| Does anyone know how to edit the subject box of this thread to place a "warning lable" in for those who may be squeamish or revolted by such talk? I looked but couldn't find a way. I hesitate to ask Dave, he may scuttle it. |
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TMS Full Moon Club : (not for the fully rational)
