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JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
 Posted - 02/13/2007 : 16:26:55
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A few days ago, I mentioned on these posts that I was seeing Dr. Sopher and was asked to let people know about the visit. Here goes........
Dr. Sopher operates a family practice in a neat little New Hampshire town called Exeter. His office is professioanl but not at all assuming. As I drove the hour drive from where I live to Exeter, I was near breakdown point. 45 minutes with Dr. Sopher turned that all around. I have so much respect and admiration for that man, I only hope I can articualte how so properly.
I have long understood TMS and Sarno and all but had slipped in recent weeka and been struggling mightily with levator syndrome misery. It has been so awful that I was thinking about going on work disablity. Dr. Sopher was quick to tell me to nix all that becaause that was what the brain wanted, to win the battle and prevail by having the pain distract me so much that I would do stupid things like thinking that way. He reminded me that TMS is not a quick fix and that to win the battle you must have a constant dialogue with your brain reminding it that you know what it is trying to do and weren't going to capitulate.
There has been a lot of conjecture on these posts about whether to believe 100% that problems are psychological versus physical. Let me tell you with no hesitation, he belives that you must absolutely believe that TMS is 100% psychological. No ifs ands or buts but whether you agree or not, that is his approach to TMS "cures" and I will take his advice as gospel, thank you very much.
In a nutshell, he is awesome. I wish yuo could all see him. I drove up in misery, home in euphoria that I saw this wonderful man who got me back on track to end the misery I have been enduring.
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 00:35:58
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| Glad to hear that your visit went well and that you are feeling confident of success. That's great news! |
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Bliss
Canada
33 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 04:36:58
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Good for you!
What really makes me believe in it 100% is the trust that I have in my body....think about it: Everytime I get a scratch, a cut, a bruise, a cold, my body HEALS those things in about a week to two weeks tops! So, logically, why would it NOT heal something like a muscle strain in the very same manner?
I think your body works FOR you ...and TMS against you. Tell your body how much respect that you have for it - as a wonderful machine and a vehicle that encases your powerful mind.
Power isn't something that's given to you (i.e.waiting, waiting, waiting) ....power is something YOU TAKE !!
Have a fab day, everyone :-)
Bliss |
Edited by - Bliss on 02/16/2007 15:48:22 |
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mizlorinj
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 10:48:53
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Thanks for sharing--it's nice to read positive experiences on here. I too believe you have to believe it 100% which is why my excruciating TMS pain (I was bedbound--no drugs even helped) went away 1.5 weeks after meeting with Dr. Sarno and following his program--and believing it.
Sad so many doubters post here. The only reason I started on this message board is because I was hoping to encourage people to believe in the power of Dr. Sarno's ideas by my own personal experience, but it appears so many post their "what if"s and "what if it's not. . . "and "I don't 100% believe" this or that. It's sad for those looking for affirmation because most of what they read makes them doubt TMS more! So thanks for your encouraging experience! I hope others benefit from it as well.
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 10:58:44
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I won't address JohnO's choice to take Sopher's word "as gospel", since he is happy with the diagnosis and recommendation, and it's not my intention here to interfere with anyone's progress.
However, to claim that this board is only for those who want to take this fundamentalist approach, is only going to drive away a lot of people. I see no reason why we can't share the board, and why those who are strong believers seem to take such offense at comments by those of use who are not.
quote:
Originally posted by mizlorinj
Sad so many doubters post here...It's sad for those looking for affirmation because most of what they read makes them doubt TMS more!
I think this is kind of a selfish view. Those of you looking for 100% validation of everything Sarno says are not the only ones out there trying to benefit from these ideas. Some of us are unlikely to ever agree with everything he says, and we, too, have needs. We need to know that there are others out there who, like myself, have had great success while doubting large parts of what Sanro wrote.
I see people here all the time writing things like "I've believed completely for 3 months and yet I haven't seen any improvement yet." Well, I haven't believed completely and I saw the majority of my improvement in the first month. I think I'm as healed as the vast majority of people still on this board. We are not all the same. Sorry, but I know for a fact there are others out there like myself, and I'm trying to help them, because there are plenty of fundamentalists here trying to help the other group.
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Edited by - alexis on 02/14/2007 12:09:49 |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 22:02:00
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That is wonderful news JohnO..I am so happy for you..Wish I could see him as well..Read his book, it was awesome..
~Karen |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 22:10:27
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quoting Alexis:
"I see no reason why we can't share the board, and why those who are strong believers seem to take such offense at comments by those of use who are not."
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No one is stopping you from saying whatever you want here. It's Dave's board and he's the only censor. I have no objection to your questioning Dr. Sarno's theory. Good science is about questioning until the truth is arrived at. You have stated your doubts since you first came on the board and it is your general theme. It's just getting a bit old.
Your questions about Dr. Sarno's clinical science will not be answered here. I reccommend you write to him and discuss the scientific integrity of TMS with him. You are preaching against the choir here.
The Good Doctor has stated in his books, that if someone can inform him of the physiology of how TMS works he would be happy to know. But the mechanics of TMS are irrelevant, because it can morph into any symptom the unconscious decides will trick the conscious.
I have corresponded with Dr. Sarno and I'm sure he would be happy to answer your questions. You are just wasteing your time and spinning your wheels here Alexis bringing up the same doubts all the time. Dr. Sarno has never posted on this board. And the few doctors who have don't usually stick around for very long. We are all amateurs here.
This is the TMS Board. If you posted on a Jeep Board and started discussing Hummer's the Jeep people would inform you that you were at the WRONG board.
The few TMS doctors on the planet all seem to agree that you HAVE to accept the theory inorder to succeed. What are your credentials to disagree with them?
I'm not trying to offend you Alexis, just speaking candidly and not wanting to beat around the bush, you don't.
Maybe you could start a board for TMS doubters and call it something like the "TMS 50/50 Board".
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Edited by - tennis tom on 02/14/2007 22:11:38 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 06:50:21
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TT, Let's go with your analogy. If you were to visit a Jeep board, no, you would not find people posting long detailed expositions on Hummers. You would occasionally find comparisons to Hummers, or maybe a helpful comment from someone who had owned a Hummer to someone who owned both and had mentioned a difficulty.
But what you would find is a lot of critical discussion of Jeeps. You would find many people saying "I like my Jeep but the transmissions on these things really suck because ... and I wish they would improve them" (made up example since I know nothing about Jeeps). You would find people saying they bought a Jeep over a Hummer after long thought and deliberation, not because they thought the Jeep perfect, but because, on balance, they came down 55% for the Jeep and only 45% for the Hummer.
And you would also find people who said that they chose the Jeep, but would sure as hell go for a Hummer next time.
What you would not find is a bunch of people sitting around saying nothing but how wonderful Jeeps are and talking only of how to use their wonderfulness to get them to do what you want. I haven't been on a car board for a while, but I was on an IE discussion board 2 days ago and I can tell you that it was at least as much criticism as praise, and all by people who had chosen to use IE (although some were seriously rethinking that decision).
But the analogy I think you really want for this board is the fundamentalist bible discussion group. You want to cite scripture and keep discussion tightly focussed on the all powerful truth of The Book(s). But you can't see this, and you almost certainly never will. And the sad part is I'm pretty sure even Sarno would be a bit shaken by your unquestioning devotion, though he would wisely not say anything hoping you were doing more good than harm.
Which gets me back to the comment in another topic about how I am tiring of the TMS scene. We moderates rarely have the endurance and energy that comes with fundamentalist fervor. Sometimes that's good, sometimes bad. I have tried to stick around to add a balance on the board, and I have explained why more than once. I hope not many people like me are scared off, because I nearly was and I would have missed out on what I have gained from this board. But no, I don't have your energy or stamina for this. I am almost entirely cured and have other interests to pursue that don't throw this kind of repetitive and tiring barrier in front of me every time I open my mouth.
That's why my participation will taper off in the future, while you will be here in a few years. And a lot of folks will learn from you. I certainly have loved your volume control analogy. Others, however, will be scared off of the whole TMS theory by hitting what looks like "cult" mentality when they visit this board.
But I hope that there will be others of my position (or close relatives) who will pop-up when needed or even stick around a while to welcome those who aren't ever going to be quite so gung-ho and unquestioning on every detail. I guess there will always be a few of us. I just encourage those folks to speak up. Yes, I recognize those of you who now fit that mold...thank you...but I'm not dragging you into this conversation. You know who you are. |
Edited by - alexis on 02/15/2007 07:51:01 |
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JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 08:29:19
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Well, whatever, but I can tell you that since my visit to Dr. Sopher Tuesday, I am so much better. I was on the verge of breakdown when I walked into his office and I am now a lot better and I know it is because he convinced me to think psychological 100%. I wish you could all see him.
Funny -- his last words out the door -- "don't be surprised if the pain goes awayd and shifts to your knee". Well, he was half right, it's not in my knee but in my stomach (the proverbial symptom imperative) or maybe it was a bad Taco from last night. LOL.
P.S. Let's all laugh on this board more. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 08:46:58
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Well Alexis that's exactly how I feel. I've just finished reading the Good Doctor's latest work THE DIVIDED MIND and as I stated a while back I will be tapering-off from posting here. You took the words out of my mouth...no those were my words, you can research them. My view is just the other side of yours, just like TMS has another side.
We are both stubborn people and you and I arguing is like arguing how many angels you can get on the head of a pin--interesting verbal semantics, keeps the mind sharp like playing jin-rummy but serving no purpose in the long run. But lets play this out because it brings some entertainment and excitement and real-peopleness to the board.
I've pretty much layed my life open here, but now you are cutting and running because of people like me (actually ME). I've been accused of chasing away people before. If people leave that's their choice. It's one of the risks you take when you post on a public message board, people like me will respond to what you have to say, not always with what you want to hear. I just took my e-mail address off my bio because I feel if people have something to say, good or bad, they should say it here, it would be good for their TMS.
You are wrong about your stat's on what goes on at Jeep board. They are not 55%-45% Jeep vs Hummer. They are 100% Jeep. And I just drove a Jeep 8000 miles back and forth across this great country and I wouldn't be caught dead in a Hummer if you gave it to me (acutually I would sell it and buy the new four door Wrangler and have plenty of money left over to mod it and run it at Moab and Rubicon). Hummers suck and their owners are a bunch of effete P******s. My bumper sticker reads, "Hummer Recovery Vehicle". I know because I visit the Jeep boards and if you even mention Hummer you are flamed. Scientific? Academic? Hell no!
What goes on at most boards (besides flameing) is a lot of the same thing as here: questions that could be answererd better by reading the owner's manual that's sitting in the glove-box.
But people post for many reasons: because they are in an emergency and don't have the patience to read their owner's manuals, don't know what an owner's manual is, can't find their owner's manual or are too lazy to read their owner's manual and want someone to do it for them because they feel entitled. Welcome to the real world Alexis. Life is NOT FAIR!
I have layed myself open on this board and taken alot of chances and taken a lot of heat for it. I've been called a lot of names which always amuses me.
I don't feel I know anything about you, accept you're quite a deep thinker and statistician. Unfotunately TMS by defintion doesn't lend itself to your kind of thinking.
You can't wrap your brain around the core concept. Sarno doesn't "cure" you. He provides the knowledge so you can cure you. He says there's nothing wrong with you that YOU can't cure, if what ails you is TMS. No test-tube study will shed any new light on that. The answers our in us not a lab. Our religion today is science and our priests are the guys in the white-coats.
As Dr. Sopher says, people don't need to dig deep into their pasts and turn over every awful experience they have had since the womb, they just have to think accurately about TMS.
I don't find your thinking about TMS accurate. I don't think you have read the books accurately. This is a common trait among TMS'ers and I have experienced that myself. TMS'ers gloss over the parts of the books that apply to themselves. It's a trick the gremlin plays on us. That's why I feel it's important to read the books slowly and re-read them. I just finished TDM and it's probably taken me close to a year. Now I will re-read it.
I believe in-accurate (or is it un-accurate?) reading today stems from the speed reading craze of the 60's. It was thought speed-reading would help one get ahead in life by absorbing more data therefore making more money and having more success somehow. Speed reading doesn't work for TMS accurate thinking.
I am a TMS fundamentalist. This is the TMSHelp Board. The help I give is quoting chapter and verse becuause that's what the doctor's who pracitice it have found works. This doesn't suit well with your paradigym of life. I have found in life, as with tennis, business, art, what-ever, there are certain fundamentals that need to be mastered before you can get to the meat of the matter and play the game and have some real fun or profit. If you don't master these fundamentals you never get to the core, the essence, of the pursuit but remain a deletante.
Alexis, sorry to hear you are cutting and running, maybe you can form your own board and talk TMS the way you see it. It's easy to criticize, it's hard to build. But I'll stick around until I feel I'm ready to leave. Maybe tomorrow, maybe never. Most of what leads to success in life is just showing up.
Well it's time for my morning coffee. Thanks for getting my blood flowing, Alexis. I'm crossing Nevada today on America's "lonelyist highway" US 50. Your fellow traveler's actually wave as they pass by.
Regards,
tt
From Ely, Nevada
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Edited by - tennis tom on 02/15/2007 10:42:54 |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 09:36:20
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I can't help but wonder how JohnO must feel right now. He has a great visit with Sopher, feels better already, wants to sing it from the rooftops to his fellow TMS sufferers --- and along comes somebody to say we should all be debating weather or not Sarno's principles work.
Hmmm. Talk about harshing a buzz.
This board is (or should be) about helping people to APPLY SARNO'S PRINCIPLES to their particular pain and suffering. The people with pain and suffering need it.
I, too, feel a "Sarno..Truth or quackery" board should be started by those wishing to debate Sarno philosophies. Too many people come here for legitimate help, and should receive it.
Beth |
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JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 09:50:45
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TT -- don't leave this board and stop posting because of one person. Your potst are always helpful and informative and you do a lot of good. You have helped me more than you know.
Please don't leave. |
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sonora sky
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 10:14:06
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TT,
Safe travels on Hwy 50...make sure to fill up your tank before taking off. It IS lonely out there, but beautiful. Enjoy!
ss |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 13:42:46
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JohnO,
I also suffer from pelvic pain and I saw Dr.Schechter. He said TMS almost mechanically and I clearly realized that he had absolutely no idea on how to properly diagnose for this problem. I felt better educated than him on the subject. I don't blame him, it is just not his specialty.
So I am puzzled by your response to Dr.Sopher. He is a GP I believe.
Pelvic pain (or levator syndrome) can be caused by a multitude of things so do you believe that Dr.Sopher was qualified to eliminating all the physical causes. |
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JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 14:24:51
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Alix, I had been failed by conventional medicine with surgeries, procedures, pills and other torture and no relief. I was told I had levator syndrome and nothing has worked. They tossed pills at me and basically told me to get lost. So, when all conventional medical failed, I turned back to TMS which helped me so much for neck pain 8 years ago. I already knew Sarno's teachings so it was easy but I needed the sit-down with Dr. Sopher to really put it all together.
Dr. Sopher convinced me to think 100% psychological and all the other Sarno teachings and I am sooooooooo much better after 2 days. It is amazing, Alix.
If you want to e-mail me directly with more questions specific to these kinds of problems, I'd be happy to tell you more. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 14:55:59
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Warning: Sensitive souls who might, as has been implied, have their psyches crushed by hearing that not everyone thinks every aspect of Sarno is 100% accurate should not read on.
For the record, I didn't start this twist in this thread. mizlorinj started this subject by saying it was "Sad so many doubters post here" and then citing as example at least one case of something I had recently posted. Once someone states on a thread that it is sad that someone like me is posting, I think it is open for me to respond to that statement. And also, for the record, I consider myself a Sarno fan for the greatest part. Anything to the contrary comes from a gross misreading of my posts.
quote:
Originally posted by h2oskier25
I can't help but wonder how JohnO must feel right now. He has a great visit with Sopher, feels better already, wants to sing it from the rooftops to his fellow TMS sufferers --- and along comes somebody to say we should all be debating weather or not Sarno's principles work.
I can only assume you are talking about me here since I'm the only one not down on my knees in prayer. But where did I ever suggest that I wanted to debate whether his principles work? I do think there is a place for that, but if you look back over the last few months I have never said I didn't think the basic methods worked, nor have I engaged in trying to call Sarno a quack. I, myself, raised the question more than once of separating this into a help board and a more intellectual discussion board, and many people assured me that the two subjects could live together--something I have doubted from the beginning.
quote:
Originally posted by h2oskier25
This board is (or should be) about helping people to APPLY SARNO'S PRINCIPLES to their particular pain and suffering. The people with pain and suffering need it.
...I, too, feel a "Sarno..Truth or quackery" board should be started by those wishing to debate Sarno philosophies.
Again, last time this came up people didn't seem to like the idea of a support only board. I was, in fact, criticized just for calling this a "support board". Folks seemed to think they could handle discussion. Apparently, this isn't true.
quote:
Originally posted by Tennis Tom
Welcome to the real world Alexis. Life is NOT FAIR!
I don't even know what this is about.
quote:
Originally posted by Tennis Tom
I don't feel I know anything about you, accept you're quite a deep thinker and statistician. Unfotunately TMS by defintion doesn't lend itself to your kind of thinking.
Are you saying that only irrational people who abandon logic and statistics can understand TMS? I would love you to quote this to Dr. Sarno.
quote:
Originally posted by Tennis Tom
Alexis, sorry to hear you are cutting and running...Most of what leads to success in life is just showing up.
"Cut and run"? I said I was going to taper off my posting, as this was tiring, and frankly getting a little boring. You said you were also going to taper off ("I will be tapering-off from posting here"). Yet I'm accused of "cutting and running"? Something odd (or obvious) going on here in the way you are representing each of us?
quote:
Originally posted by Tennis Tom
You are wrong about your stat's on what goes on at Jeep board. They are not 55%-45% Jeep vs Hummer. They are 100% Jeep.
First of all, I'm not sure from your comment if you understood me. I didn't mean the posts were 55% Jeep, and 45% hummer. I meant some people on the board had bought a Jeep even though they were only 55% in favor of the decision. I was working on your analogy. I have no real insight on the mentality that makes one buy either of these vehicles. Pick whatever closest competitor you like and fill in the blank. The only person I know with a Jeep is by no means 100% satisfied. But if the board you are on is as fanatical as you imply, I'll be staying away from those boards.
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Edited by - alexis on 02/15/2007 15:14:09 |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 19:55:48
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Alexis,
I couldn't agree with you more. The way I see it, if the TMS theory, or we as believers in this theory, are not open to questioning it, it is not worth much. I doubt even Sarno would be so cultish about it.
Candace Pert, who is mentioned often on this board and admired, even by TT, refers favorably to Sarno in her new book, but that doesn't stop her from also saying good things about other practices that might even conflict with TMS, such as chiropractic. I figure if a scientist of the stature of Pert can be open-minded about these things, so can I.
A couple of points:
1--Sarno is NOT God.
2--TMS is not a religion (or shouldn't be).
I'm here because the TMS ideas have worked for me. I'll continue to study and practice these ideas precisely because they have been helpful for me, but I will also freely partake of any other ideas or practices that I find interesting or helpful. Whatever works. If I wanted to practice "born-again TMS-ism" maybe I would get saved instead. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 20:41:09
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I don't know where all this God talk, cult, religion crap is coming from, certainly NOT from me! It's all about following the Good Doctor's instructions.
When your doctor gives you a prescription for meds or a course of physical therapy for a structural injury, do you go out of the office and say to yourself, "I think he's just half right so I will only take half the dosage" or do half the prescribed physical therapy. On rx bottles it always says to take the full course of the medication even if you are feeling better.
Dr. Sarno says "TMS knowledge" is the "penicillin" required to cure TMS. Why, in Dr. Sarno's case, do you take only the portion of the "knowledge medication" that YOU decide, rather than the full dosage?
This has nothing to do with religion, cultism or reverence. It just has to do with following directions. All this religion stuff is in YOUR heads, not mine. I am one of the least religiouly observant of people's on the planet.
Regards,
tt
From Fallon, Nevada (a pleasant 55') |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 21:01:16
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quoting Alexis:
"The only person I know with a Jeep is by no means 100% satisfied. But if the board you are on is as fanatical as you imply, I'll be staying away from those boards."
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It's cool you have a friend with a Jeep, you've come up a notch in my book for that. Does he wheel it or is it a mallcrawler?
Could you please get him on the board, I'd like to talk to him about his heep and find out what problems he's having. Maybe I could help him solve them.
You're right the Heep boards are not a fit place for women and children, it's a guy thing, but there are a few gals who hang out there. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 21:24:19
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Hi wrldtrv, Thanks for joining in. I knew I couldn't be totally alone in seeing the weird religiosity going on. It's just like knocking my head against a wall. I've explained that I mostly support Sarno more times than I can count, and as far as I can remember the only issue I've taken with the practice he suggests is saying that you don't have to believe the diagnosis 100% to get better. Since there are several of us here who have got better without believing 100%, it is utterly beyond me how anyone is getting upset with me saying this...except that I've faced the same thing from fundamentalist religious folk, so I'm not that surprised.
I've also explained several times, that while I support critique of Sarno's ideas, I am not myself trying to raise the criticisms precisely because I, personally, am not interested in interferring with those who are helped by this "faith" type experience. I only bring up the fact that I have doubts to let others, like myself, know that they can benefit without believing every detail. I just want people to give this a chance.
Can you help tell me if I am somehow not being clear, because these folk seem to be completely incapable of understanding what seems to be very clear language. Have I explained something wrong or is it just not possible to explain these things to people who actively want to be unquestioning religious fundamentalists? |
Edited by - alexis on 02/15/2007 21:37:04 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 21:34:36
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TT,
I was actually referring to a woman. She also drove a Hummer when in the military, but was none to crazy about that either if that makes you feel better. This is, btw, so amazingly far from being my area you've no idea. |
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My Visit With Dr. Sopher
