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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2006 : 07:17:37
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| Thanks,Dave. I agree that any system that presupposes that our bodies are so weak, so subject to structural damage from benign interactions with the environment, and can only be "corrected" by physical exercise is incompatible with TMS and would only distract folks from putting their full concentration and effort into Sarno's program. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 10:55:27
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quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
From what I have gathered of Somatics, I don't see it as competition with TMS. I think those who simplify it by seeing it as basically a set of exercises to relieve pain are missing a larger point. I don't have any pain. I'm interested in what it can do for my stiffness, my posture that has become each year more rigid, my gait which has become more constrained.
I'm afraid that many people don't get this very important point about treating TMS.
It is essential to get as close to 100% belief as you can regarding the psychogenic nature of the symptoms. There is no room for doubt. If you sew the seeds of doubt, the unconscious mind will sieze the opportunity to give you symptoms that are most likely to be perceived as a structural problem.
If you believe bad posture is the cause of muscle stiffness, and seek out physical remedies, the stiffness will remain and possibly intensify, because it grabs your attention and is perceived as a physical problem.
The unconscious mind will do whatever it can to keep you from believing that the physical symptoms have a psychological origin, and from attempting to feel the "forbidden" feelings that are buried inside.
Consistency is important. You can't say "the pain is TMS but the stiffness is bad posture." It undermines the entire TMS treatment. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 11:37:02
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| Hope everyone gets better.... |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 04/19/2007 13:27:49 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 16:28:45
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You are right, I have not read Somatics. I am responding strictly to the messages on this thread, and my feeling that any program that involves "physical movement patterns" and a daily exercise routine is contradictory to TMS.
This certainly does not mean that a daily exercise program is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. It is important to live a healthy life and that includes physical exercise. It's one thing to exercise, but another to believe that specific exercises can "control subconscious tension habits."
Anyway, I wish you luck and hope that the Somatics program continues to work for you. |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 17:22:37
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quote:
If the mind can affect the body in ways such as in Sarno's books by defusing pain signals the brain holds for blood flow, why then can't the body be used to affect the mind?
You make a very good point there, Hillbilly, and I have seen that happen with the Alexander Technique: as people get physical release they sometimes also get emotional release. In fact that's the reason I was able to accept Sarno's theories when I read his book.
Physical and emotional patterns do seem to be tied in together. (Hence the term "mindbody", and the impossibility of separating the two.)
Hilary N |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 04:26:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
You are right, I have not read Somatics. I am responding strictly to the messages on this thread, and my feeling that any program that involves "physical movement patterns" and a daily exercise routine is contradictory to TMS.
It's not an exercise regime as you would normally understand it. There's no "working out" of muscles. The movements are very small and done slowly and without any effort at all. The desired outcome is not to tone or improve muscles by movement, but to regain the sense of that part of the body, which is in effect a deficiency of the nervous system.
If you're going to take that kind of anti-exercise stance, you might as well be anti-sarno, as he encourages as a big part of recovery for patients to restart physical activities that caused them pain in the past!
Of course the activity itself is moot - it's a means to an end - to reprogram the mind into letting go of symptoms. This is exactly what occurs with Somatics too. I fail to see the difference.
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
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neilo
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 08:42:46
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I have read sarnos MBP and divided mind. Im now half way through hannas somatics book thanks to to hillbillys suggestion.
So far i think somatics is compatible with sarno.
Hanna takes a mindbody approach and rejects the structural defect approach of conventional medicine. So far im confortable in adding
somatics to sarnos methods.
Should somatics be added to this forum ? I guess that depends on whether this forum is purely for TMS or purely for pain relief.
Ive made good progress with sarnos methods but personaly, i see TMS theory as part of a wider picture that includes yoga, tai chi, any other form of excercise, positive thinking, somatics and anything else that may help.
nm |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 11:37:32
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What does the Somatics book say about the role of emotions?
"Mindbody" is a very wide term.
Although TMS has been changed from Tension Myositis Syndrome to The Mindbody Syndrome, I see TMS as being more specifically about repressed emotions causing pain and other mental and physical conditions. (Not relected in either term.)
The Alexander Technique is "mindbody", but the role of repressed emotions hardly gets a mention, so I see it as being very different from TMS.
Unless Somatics addresses repressed emotions then likewise I can't see the connection with TMS other than sharing the term "mindbody".
Edited:
On the other hand I would see The Journey by Brandon Bayes, for example, as being compatible with TMS because it is a way of accessing hidden emotions and resolving them.
Hilary N |
Edited by - HilaryN on 10/31/2006 11:49:18 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 14:57:23
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I'd really like to know more about what Hanna and Somatics say about RSI and CFS. Hillbilly never really answered this for me. (And no, I don't want to go buy and read the book -- unless it has something new and interesting to say. My shelves are already full of books that are useless in light of Sarno.) In the online material, they acknowledge the diagnoses, but this may be only because that will help people identify that this method could help them with what they think they have. If the method doesn't say that these are real diagnoses, or that RSI, etc. are caused by structural or mechanical (ie from activity) problems, then I would be much more interested in this stuff as potentially compatible with Sarno. On the other hand, what Hillbilly said about poor posture being a cause of pain is exactly the opposite of Sarno.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 10:21:12
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quote:
Should somatics be added to this forum ? I guess that depends on whether this forum is purely for TMS or purely for pain relief.
Ive made good progress with sarnos methods but personaly, i see TMS theory as part of a wider picture that includes yoga, tai chi, any other form of excercise, positive thinking, somatics and anything else that may help.
It's been clearly established that this forum is for TMS and emotionally based mindbody symptoms, and not for the more general concept of 'pain relief'. So there's little chance somatics or any other method will be added to the scope of official discussion topics.
But I'll add this: There's an assumption built into TMS theory that basically ALL chronic pain and physical/emotional symptoms that are unexplained by standard medical tests or given certain labels fall under the TMS umbrella. Therefore they are all treatable by TMS approaches, and TMS approaches only. Certainly this is true for a whole lot of people, but whether it is completely true for all is a matter of unresolvable debate. The many that it works magic for obviously will agree but they may hold different opinions than those who struggle or see limited symptom relief.
I'd be willing to bet that had Hillbilly consulted a TMS doctor 6 months ago he would have been diagnosed with TMS. But he responded much better to the somatics approach. That doesn't prove much in the big picture, but it is suggestive that there may be more to the chronic back pain picture for some. But I'm making my own assumption here and as I said, it's an unresolvable debate at present.
Bottom line: If some approach really truely feels right to you, then chances are it will be right for you. |
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Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 11:31:17
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Wow, I'm surprised by these responses. I believe Sarno's biggest hurdle is a closed mind, whether it be from patients or the medical community. Poor Hillbilly mentions something that worked for him and gets all these close minded responses from the "hard-core" TMS'ers. I guess Sarno's right, it is hard to get people to open their minds to new ways of thinking.
I know this is a TMS forum, but I think everyone's goal is to get better. |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 16:23:02
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I think you've misunderstood, Sean. Nobody's saying Somatics doesn't work. I'm happy that Hillbilly has done us the favour of telling us about it and I'll certainly be passing it on to people as another option to try.
As far as I'm concerned the debate is just about the connection with TMS.
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question as to where repressed emotions fit in with Somatics and I'd be interested to know from someone who's read the book. (I've got too many other books to read at the moment.)
Hilary N |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 16:38:08
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Hilary
Somatics does not address the emotional-physical pain of the mindbody system. It does address the mental picture one has of himself. It is called proprioception. It is simply another dimension of the mindbody. We all have a mental representation of our own body that we construct through our life. This mental picture will, for instance, defines what sequence of muscles are activated to do a particular movement. Such a sequence can be right or it can be wrong depending if you conditionned yourself to move because of fear of injury for example. It is closely related to the conditioning that Sarno is talking about.
This simple ..
TMS deals with the repressed emotions and their impact on the mindbody.
Somatics deals more with the alteration of this body mental picture that can happen when we condition ourlseves to move a certain way....
Somatics is purely learning to decondition yourself....it does not adress the emotional aspect of mindbody disorders in any way. period.
P. |
Edited by - FlyByNight on 11/01/2006 16:41:41 |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 14:06:13
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Many thanks, Patrick.
Hilary N |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 14:11:14
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| My pleasure Hilary |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 15:56:01
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I am very happy for Hillbilly's recovery and wished him the best early on in this thread. I am a TMS deovtee and feel it can cure many ills. Dr. Sarno acknowledges "ligitimate" injuries and does not say everything is TMS. During his exams he dx's physical injuries as well as TMS.
I feel there are many modalities that are pure b.s. as well as many that are ligitimate and compatible with TMS. Nobody has a monopoly on the truth.
I would be curious to ask Hillbilly, if he has experienced any emotional/psychological improvements in the life "pressures" area as Dr. Sarno would call it?
In other words, has his psychological well-being improved along with his phyical improvement? |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2006 : 13:32:52
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quote:
I feel there are many modalities that are pure b.s. as well as many that are ligitimate and compatible with TMS. Nobody has a monopoly on the truth.
I couldn't agree more with that Tom. It's been quite a path for me coming to realize how much stuff in both mainstream and alternative medicine really isn't all its cracked up to be. And some is just plain b.s. But I've also found occasional diamonds in both. I've learned to try to keep my mind open while also trusting my own insticts and common sense. Not always an easy balancing act.
Also, that was a really good somatics explanation/comparison Patrick.
Sounds like it could be another angle to help address the conditioning aspect of the problem. |
Edited by - PeterW on 11/03/2006 13:52:48 |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 22:27:50
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| Just on curiosity it seems like the first page of this thread is missing. Why is that? |
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Thanks for everything, guys and gals!
