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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
 Posted - 10/21/2006 : 23:42:27
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HAnna does not say that the answer is physical at all. It states that the answer is in refining the mental image that your brain have of your neuromusculare motor activation patterns. Completely different ...
Personnaly, I do think that having TMS for a long time by means of capilarry ischemia, because its creating new dysfunctional motor activation patterns, can induce sensory motor amnesia after a certain while of the correct, physiological motor pattern. I do not see any contradictions between Sarno and Hanna, They are very complementary in fact. They both deal with retraining the brain, but two different aspects of it.
Cheers
P. |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 10:41:39
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterW
Sarno and Somatics - both recommended here:
http://www.precast.org/publications/mc/2006_marapr/back_attack.htm
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BRILLANT FIND PeterW,
Necessity is once again the mother of invention. Leave it to concrete workers, those in the most need of physical repair and least likely to succumb to psychsomatic "excuses", to see the mindbody connection. Nothing like a concrete truck to separate the TMS wheat from the chaff and blend it together again.
Leave it to the pragmatism of heavy industry to accept TMS and Somatatics without a conflict.
BRILLANT! |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 13:56:30
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PeterW, You rock dude !
Always coming with the precise exact needed stuff at the right moment !
thanx. |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 13:59:21
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I am wondering what Sarnos would say about combining TMS with Somatics ... I am doing somatic education with my daily TMS work since 1 week now, and I see new improvements in my neck. Nothing spectacular here. Just some changes. The key is that I focus on the memory when I do the exercices, not merely on the physical ...
The only problem is that as soon I am taking a shower, spasm are coming back just after when the muscles cool down ... Probably pure Conditioning |
Edited by - FlyByNight on 10/22/2006 14:01:11 |
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almost there
109 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 19:26:19
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| I have read your good-byes and wish you well (truly)....and believe you will do very well....but you will be back...if only to catch up on how old friends are doing....I never say "goodbye"....ever..... only "so-long"....leaving the door open to meeting again! You are a success story....I am happy for you! You will be back! |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 20:01:02
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Hey thanks for the accolades guys, but all I did was google those two words (Sarno and Somatics) out of curiousity and that literally was the first site that came up.
And I got so absorbed in reading the article I didn't even notice it was from a concrete manufacturer's publication! But I agree TT, I think we can safely say those pragmatic folks are standing on solid ground, so to speak. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 23:44:54
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| I agree, great article, Peter. The whole theory behind Somatics makes so much sense; I'm surprised it hasn't caught on after all these years. I had never heard about it until now. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 07:35:59
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| Hope everyone gets well..... |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 04/19/2007 13:19:02 |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 18:06:03
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I might be interested in the ones for the skull and TMJ...
Tell me, can you do these exercises alone, without having previously been taught any Somatics by a teacher?
Thx,
greg.
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 19:18:40
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I just bought the TMJ and SKull CD. Ill keep you in touch when it arrives...
P. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 19:23:21
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Somatics sounds very much like Feldenkrais to me. While I have benefited from Feldenkrais and heartily endorse it as a way to increase the capacity of any body and gain greater enjoyment of movement, it is a pittance of a pain solution compared to Sarno if you have TMS.
I don't want to rain on the parade too much, because anything that helps helps, but I suspect that as far as pain-banishing power, both Feldenkrais and Somatics (as well as their cousin Alexander Technique) are just ways to undo the conditioning aspect of TMS by making us believe that we don't have to experience pain or restriction from certain movements. Which is great, since conditioning can be hard to undo. But it also means they are not the answer. By themselves, they may be similar to any other placebo...
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 04:22:15
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Hmm... I'm picturing people on the Somatics forum right now writing:
I don't wanna discourage anyone, but from what I've learnt about TMS, it's power to heal is pretty limited compared to Somatics. With TMS you just admit to yourself that your body is malfunctioning due to repressed emotion, but you have no tools to change back the learned responses of your body other than positive thinking. Without re-educating years of mislearned neurological responses, you really can't expect to heal. With TMS I'd be surprised if the healing was at best anywhere near as quick as with Somatics, and at worst probably just a small placebo improvement.
;-)
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 07:42:29
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| Hope everyone gets better.... |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 04/19/2007 13:20:20 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 11:00:27
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I am not necessarily dissing something like this when I call it a placebo. :-) You're looking at one word without looking at the rest of what I said. The placebo effect is a mindbody effect. Placebos can work for many years, and sometimes they're all a person needs to feel better. If so, that's great for however long it works.
Furthermore, the goal and the methods have to be distinguished from each other. TMS work, Feldenkrais, Alexander Technique, and Somatics all appear (from my perspective) to be METHODS of neuromuscular reprogramming. What's powerful to me about the TMS theory, compared to the other theories, is that it tells you what the ultimate cause, not just the proximate cause, of the current bad programming is. And it tells you that you can ultimately be completely free of pain, without any need for maintenance. If its METHOD doesn't work for one person, then by all means that person should pursue other METHODS. But you're still pursuing the same GOAL -- of being free from all (conditioned) psychogenic pain.
I am concerned, however, that someone who pursued the METHODS of NMRP, without understanding the genesis of their pain and having the goal of being pain free, would remain in pain, or would transfer their symptoms to another modality. The reason I am concerned by this is that my own experience tells me that this can happen, at least with some METHODS. Feldenkrais didn't fix me; it didn't fix my mom. If you really have TMS, then without an additional knowledge of the genesis of your pain, the pain will stay or the symptom imperative may eventually create something new for you. You, Neil, can't be a test case for this because you also know TMS theory. :-)
None of the material on the website convinces me that these practitioners know anything special. In the RSI article, it describes how a woman's problem arose from locking down her ribs. How does the practitioner know that the locking down wasn't something that happened after the pain started? The woman needed continued exercises to stay pain-free -- but RSI sufferers who use the TMS method generally recover completely and need no physical maintenance. I was also told that I was holding my wrists wrong and sitting wrong. Today I sit and hold my wrists however I want -- and not in a recommended way, either.
The article about CFS is equally unconvincing -- it's merely a regurgitation of trigger point theory. I had trigger points all over my upper body, and they stopped causing pain when I stopped believing that they had to. They're still there. They don't fatigue me or cause any pain. I didn't need any special exercises to get rid of them.
Frankly, I am in favor of whatever METHOD works to help people overcome their pain. But I think that TMS theory is the only one I've seen that speaks fully about the ultimate cause of the pain and the ultimate GOAL we can achieve.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 12:20:52
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| Armchair, your post is full of wisdom ... I agree 100% with everything you said. Somatics will fix sensory motor amnesia but nothing dealing with capillary ischemia as it might be the potential cause of the pain with TMS. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 13:08:23
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Hope everyone gets better....
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Edited by - Hillbilly on 04/19/2007 13:21:05 |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 14:53:03
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| Hillbilly - why can't you believe it? I think Sarno puts forth an excellent case for the brain cutting off blood flow...I believe it 100%. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 17:34:18
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Now I'm really curious. Does "sensory motor amnesia" seem easier, or more plausible, to you than capillary ischemia? Either one requires the brain to do something bizarre that it normally doesn't. Both have plausible mechanism, since contraction of muscles and flow of blood are both largely unconscious.
The mechanism's certainly the part of the theory that Sarno is least clear about, so I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 20:26:24
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The controversy about capilarry ischemia is whether or not it is a cause or a consequence of muscle tension. In my opinion, it can be both at the same time. We call it positive feedback , or commonly catch 22.
Sensory motor amnesia will inevitably happen when you use your muscles in a non physiological way for a long period of time ... because of fear, because you dont want to, because you strap your neck in a neck collar or whatever reason ..
These two mecanisms are totally different in origin but can happen at the same time .
Regards
P. |
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Thanks for everything, guys and gals!
