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JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2006 : 19:21:50
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Hi,
I am new to the TMS world but was recently diagnosed (My particular pain problem is fibro.) My TMS doc. said that sometimes biofeedback is helpful because TMS (or AOS as Brady would say) have hypersensitive nervous systems.
Now, here is my question. If our emotions create pain via are Autonomic Nervous system, what is wrong with our nervous systems? Most folks don't have repressed emotion causing constant pain---just us TMS folks.
WHY? Are we born with defective nervous systems? Which came first the repressed emotion or the "jumpy" nervous system?
I know this may be an impossible question, but thought I'd pose it anyway. For instance, biofeedback may not be a great idea if our nervous systems are essentially normal and the problem is strictly emotional. "Correcting" the nervous system may not do anything. Maybe it is like "correcting" a bulging disc!
Am I making any sense here? I want to know because I am starting a lengthy course of biofeedback and if it's going to be like going to the chiropractor who needs it. However if it can calm-down a hyperactivation of the ANS that would be cool! The biofeedback doctor, of course, says it can.
Any thoughts?
Jane |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 19:39:54
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JaneLeslie,
Actually, Dr. Sarno states in his book that most of us have some form of TMS. I believe he refers to it as a "human condition" or something along those lines. If you consider all the folks w/allergies, skin problems, migranes, carpal tunnel, back pain, depression-the list goes on-it accounts for a lot of us. Maybe some of us "hypersensitive" types are more prone to it or just end up w/more severe forms of it.
Nor |
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yowire
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 20:44:45
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Hi JaneLeslie,
There is nothing wrong with our nerves. The unconscious mind is pulling off some kind of deception which makes us believe we have a weak nervous system. Don't buy into it.
I can't comment much on biofeedback because I don't know much about it, but it is not the answer.
If we think we have a hypersensitive nervous system, then we are just engaging in another form of physical thinking. In fact, this is the worst form of physical thinking because ,as you know, nerves go throughout the whole body and they are known to be involved with pain.
Once the unconscious mind has you believing in the bogus "hypersensitive nervous system" then it is free to wreak havoc throughout the body.
Yowire |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 21:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneLeslie
WHY? Are we born with defective nervous systems? Which came first the repressed emotion or the "jumpy" nervous system?
Hi Jane,
Very interesting question ... you go girl, it is EXACTLY these type of analytical questions that will work to get you well. You are figuring things out and putting things in a personal context.
As for the answer, I don't yet know. There are lots of people here who believe that the only thing you need to do is the 3 steps Sarno teaches; 1. repudiate the DX and tests, 2. get in touch with childhood anger, 3. ignore the pain and do everything you would do w/o pain.
A lot of people have become well without biofeedback, but if it helps you and gives you more personal power to accept/do the above steps, then I say why not? If you are having doubts about investing the time and money, maybe you don't need BF right now?! Everyone's get-well-plan differs ... like for me I've just started running again (after 11 month doctor-enforced hiatus) and when I run, I express a lot of anger in my life. I often cry. (I wonder what the neighbors think!!! hahaha --- kidding, I really don't care WHAT they think.) I'm a mess, but it is part of my plan to tackle my gremlins. Perhaps during BF you will be able to connect with some of the emotions causing your fibro? As long as you don't attribute your getting well to the BF I doubt it can hurt you.
Just some ideas for you. I was really glad to read your other posts today and how you are enjoying Brady's paingames. You are going to be FINE ... I just know it! I'm interested to read others' replies on this topic.
>|< Penny
Non illigitamus carborundum. |
Edited by - Penny on 09/23/2006 21:16:25 |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 23:12:50
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| I don't think there's something wrong with the nervous system. By definition, its supposed to carry messages from our brain to the body and back(sorry for my rudimentary biology) as I understand. So it has the capability to transmit the signal to deplete blood flow also. So if the question is why does our brain come with the capability to do this....my guess would be that its this way because the higher rational faculties were built ON TOP of the lower subconscious animal parts of the mind (as opposed to the lower parts being deleted and replaced with the rational part). Our subconscious (or unconsciuous, not sure which is more correct) is still alive underneath there and resents that the rational part of us does its best to ignore its irrational impulses. Perhaps our TMS 'capability' is to ensure the subconscious part is not neglected? |
Edited by - ndb on 09/23/2006 23:18:35 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2006 : 09:45:16
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| There is nothing wrong with our nervous systems. The unconscious mind is making a conscious decision to mess with it. |
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JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2006 : 11:14:43
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Thank you all. This is helping me understand that there is no need per se for biofeedback but it may be helpful in speeding along the process. But if the TMS work is ignored it will not be.
Maybe for some reason our Autonic Nervous System is over-responsive to the emotional but that doesn't mean it is "pathological." Right?
Please keep going. If anyone has an opinion I want to hear it.
(Penny,I will write soon. Thanks! )
Jane |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2006 : 17:45:32
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Hi JaneLeslie,
I'm new to this forum, but I've been lurking and reading for a few weeks. I'd like to share my opinion about the hypersensitive nervous system theory.
As I understand it, the meaning of that term is not that there is some physical problem or defect in the autonomic nervous system, but only that some people have a more heightened awareness and more heightened response to certain stimuli.
The autonomic nervous system is not the part of the nervous system that carries information to the brain, that is the central nervous system. Once the brain receives the information the autonomic nervous system can signal certain parts of the body to react, such as causing the heart rate to speed up or the bronchial tubes to open wider. The central nervous system carries other information from the brain to other parts of the body, such as a message to the fingers to scratch an itch.
What I've read about this hypersensitivity of the autonomic nervous system is that it is not exclusive to people, but also can occur in the animal world, for example when a horse is referred to as high strung, it means the animal is more reactive to certain things in the environment, such as sounds or sudden movements nearby.
Some people have theorized that "colicky" babies are actually experiencing this heightened response to their surroundings; they are more easily overwhelmed by stimuli that would not bother other babies.
I personally believe that both people and animals can be more reactive to stimuli in the environment and that it is not some sort of disorder, but just one of many individual variations that can occur in any group of living beings. Just as some people are more in tune to music or art than the average person would be, some individuals can be more reactive to their surroundings. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but can lead to being more easily overwhelmed by things that wouldn't bother the average person.
My mother, my biological son and I have all experienced this, being particularly aware of sounds, textures, lighting and other stimuli, to the point of being bothered by things that other family members don't even notice.
My understanding of how biofeedback can benefit someone who experiences such hypersensitivity is that it can help a person learn to control the stress responses that may occur through the autonomic nervous system when one is overstimulated. It can teach a person to change the rate of their heartbeat, their blood pressure, their skin temperature and so on in order to counteract the typical stress responses.
Since stress is viewed by some as a contributing factor to TMS, it seems to me that some people would find biofeedback a useful tool. It's not an effort to correct some abnormality or disorder, but to manage the body's autonomic nervous system reaction to situations or stimuli that cause stress.
If you decide to try the biofeedback, I hope you'll let us know if you find it to be a useful tool. I appreciated Penny's comment that many people have succeeded without it, but each person needs to decide which tools will best serve their get-well plan. |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2006 : 18:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird
Some people have theorized that "colicky" babies are actually experiencing this heightened response to their surroundings; they are more easily overwhelmed by stimuli that would not bother other babies.
Hi LittleBird! Wow!!!! When Jane posed this question, colic was one of my brainwaves. I have 2 younguns, both of whom had terrible inconsolability for 1st 3 months of life: Gutwrenching crying spells that the docs said was "colic". After watching both my girls suffer through and adjust, I'm of the belief that this is a problem with their under-developed nervous systems.
How many people here with TMS had colic as a baby???? I did.
>|< Penny
Non illigitamus carborundum. |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2006 : 19:37:26
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I had "colic" as a baby, and my son did too.
I read somewhere (don't remember where) that a large percentage of people who are dx with Fibro had colic as babies.
I was dx w/Fibro and CFS and have been debilitated by pain and fatigue for 18 years, so I'm really thrilled to have learned about TMS and to find this forum!
I've read The Divided Mind and now I'm reading a book about insomnia that was recommended on one of the threads a while back. I'm sleeping better than I have in a long time and have been able to start reducing my dose of Neurontin.
It's wonderful to be here with all these fine people who are encouraging one another in the effort to get our lives back! |
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JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 09:02:13
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Hi Penny and LIttleBird,
I think I had colic too but I would have to find out. My son would go through these screaming fits every night at about 5 pm when he was a few months old and our pediatrician actually said it was nervous system discharge! That was the only time he demonstrated this behavior. Would that be considered colic? Now he still needs to let off steam a lot(he is 12.) He is not a big repressor, which I guess is good.
I am interested in the book on insomnia as that can be a problem for me. What is getting to me lately is the thought: "OUr we always going to be chasing our tails?" When I get rid of this pain will I then have anxiety and then insomnia, then OCD, then IBS, then pain again etc.? It is the equivalent thing that scares me. Does one ever really get to the bottom of this process???? I know that some of us have but there is no sure way, is there? I want to be hopeful and it is easier for me to feel hopeful for others than for myself.
Have to trust! Thanks to you all.
Jane |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 12:59:47
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneLeslie
What is getting to me lately is the thought: "OUr we always going to be chasing our tails?"
Does one ever really get to the bottom of this process????
Great questions, Janie ... It does seem like a bottomless pit. I need to hear from recovered TMSers on their thoughts too. I'm so in the "thick of IT" the past couple days. The emotional pain is overwhelming, but I'm letting it run it's course thru me again. I'm back to wearing my sunglasses to cover my puffy eyes.
I'm of the new-found-belief that (for me anyway) fibro/TMS hit me so hard b/c I had completely limited my emotions to only experieincing feelings that I used to believe were the "positive" emotions. I never let myself really feel the anger in me, or jealousy, and my latest realization JUST TODAY ... I NEVER felt helpless. Helplessness has never been something I've let myself experieince ... at the onset of helplessness I'd fill that space with "doing something about it". As a human being (which contrary to what my mind has been telling me most of my life) I am NOT perfect and therefore must allow myself the indulgence of ALL human emotions, some of those being miserable and painful things like helplessness--dare I say the "negative" emotions?! I'm starting to shift my beliefs about emotions actually being positive or negative, instead I'm just going to refer to them as what they are instead of judging them. Da*&^it I'm entitled to feel uncomfortable emotions. We ALL ARE!!!!!
To take a crack at answering your very loaded question: I think this process of unravelling--or peeling our emotional onions....pyschoT--will continue but won't be as painful over time. Thru this process we need to learn from our limiting patterns, and change our behavior (e.g. in my case, allow myself to stop and really feel the helplessness over things and people I have NO control over) then we will get and achieve emotional and physical wellness. For some of us, the patterns in our lives that were giving us TMS may not be very difficult to change. Perhaps they were just small negative beliefs. But for those of us with stubborn TMS, perhaps we continue to live against our grains ... meaning, we are constantly doing what others expect of us instead of what we honestly deep down want and need for ourselves.
I was in a friendship that--I never realized--completely squashed my spirit. This person made me feel bad about everything. She never did anything to protect or nurture me. I always went out of my way for her. Now, thru the power of simply acknowledging this, I don't want her in my life anymore. Once we expose these little nuggets to ourself (nuggets meaing "friends" or self-defeating behaviors) and we re-interpret them in context of looking after ourselves or feeding our spirit, and make a conscious decision about our next step (not call her anymore, or allowing myself to feel all human emotions) then the nugget becomes wisdom and won't need to be relived or analyzed further. Bravery is key here. We need to be brave enough to see our truth and strong enough to break the patterns that limit us and keep bringing us down--that lead to the physical and emotional pain.
I hope this makes sense to people other than me 
>|< Penny
Non illigitamus carborundum. |
Edited by - Penny on 09/25/2006 13:03:35 |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 14:54:02
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The name of the book about insomnia is "Say Goodnight to Insomnia" by Gregg D. Jacobs, Ph.D. I ordered it from Amazon, for about $10 I think. I also bought a few other books that I learned about here on the forum, but haven't started them yet. I got"Pain Free for Life," "Freedom from Fibromyalgia" and "Self Analysis." Amazon gives free shipping when you order $25 or more, so I buy books in groups.
The insomnia book is similar to Dr. Sarno's books in saying that for most people chronic insomnia is a mental thing that we can learn to overcome. It also goes into the physical aspects of how the body decides to sleep or be awake, and while I knew our circadian rhythm is tied to body temperature changes, it never occurred to me that we could have some control over the timing of those temperature changes. I'm amazed by how much better I've slept over the last few days, and I function much better when I've slept well.
Jane, it certainly sounds like your son had colic. My son is 20 now, but between the ages of 12 and 18 he had a habit of going out into the yard and punching the fence when he got overly frustrated. At 17 he bought a punching bag, because he kept having to nail boards back on the fence.
This year my son got his driver's license and so he takes his basketball to the park when he needs to let off steam. I'm glad he's been able to express feelings instead of repressing them. I've tried to make it "safe" for him to do that. I was raised by a mentally ill mother and it was never safe to express myself.
I think there will come a time when we will be able to break out of the cycle of trading one symptom for another. I think some of us have to do as Penny says and learn to recognize the behaviors we've developed that cause us to repress our emotions.
Maybe some people don't find that as necessary because their circumstances aren't causing them to feel a lot of anger or sadness anymore, so they get better more quickly. I don't know, but I do feel that I'll need to learn to change my responses to people in my life who are still triggering a lot of anger and sadness before I'll really be able to get rid of this physical pain and fatigue.
It would be interesting to hear from others here about the ways they changed themselves, if they did, that lead to recovery for them.
I have backed away from a couple of friends who drained me, as well as one of my daughters-in-law. I seem to have a big neon sign on my back that says I will take care of others and expect nothing in return, because I really attract people who think that's what I'm on this earth to do. Actually, the people who are drawn to me often seem to have mental health issues similar to my mother's problem, so I probably just slip into the crazy dance with them because it's what I'm used to.
Penny, I so relate to your statement that bravery is key. It's a scary, scary thing for me to tell people "no"and to feel like I can stand up for what I need without making my whole world fall apart.
I'm grateful for the sharing that goes on here. I'm learning so much, like how to really look inside and figure out what I need to do differently. |
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JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 15:27:57
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Hi Ladies,
I was raised by a mentally-ill mother also!!! We must have had to repress a lot. This is a difficult process of surrender. 
I have never been a brave person. I was always afraid I would end up like my mother. She had TMS but was also probably a borderline.
I think the process of trying to be "not like my mother" has exhuasted me completely. I have tried to do EVERYTHING differently than my mother. How exhausting.
When do we get to rest?
Thanks for your help. It is hard to live with pain from my body and the pain of all of these emotions. Thanks for making it bearable. Penny, you are so right about letting yourself feel helpless. Thanks for your examples. That is where I am. I feel like a fool and like a very young child. So much changes when you start to accept this diagnosis. What a mind-bend!
Blessings,
Jane |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 19:04:36
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JL and Penny,
Thank you so much for your deeply-felt and insightful posts about mothers and also about helplessness. I realized recently that I always tried to be like my mother (who I now realize has severe TMS! Go figure), but I had not really spent the time to think about it since then. This reminded me of it. I realized it because I had a conversation in my head with her about eating habits. It was a recap of a real conversation in which she said I do not need to worry or be down on myself if I have occasional sugar cravings and eat strange things because it's hormonal. In the conversation I had in my head, I said "But you are able to not eat things." This is because she is always on some sort of diet where she doesn't eat various things. I didn't know until I had that mental conversation that I had aspired at such a deep level to be like her, to have her willpower, her competence. It is probably, I guess, exhausting whether you try to be like or not like someone. We are all our unique selves and I think a big part of getting past TMS is giving that self some breathing space to become what she (he) would have been if nurtured with the allowance and encouragement respect and love her (his) unique self.
Also, I often get really annoyed about things I have no control over, maybe to cover that I hate feeling afraid or helpless!
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 23:02:21
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I have to agree that it's probably equally exhausting to try to be like someone or try to not be like someone.
My mother was also probably borderline, as is the DIL that I have problems dealing with. (My other DILs are sweethearts.) I sometimes read the forums at bpdcentral, where those in relationships with bpd persons go for support. A recent thread was about children learning to closely watch the borderline parent for signs of what the bp might be feeling, so the child could try to become whatever would keep the parent calm. I still watch people for the nuances of their expressions and other body language. I have a phone phobia because I can't see the other person, so I can't analyze their mood in order to morph into whatever they may want me to be at the moment. It's terrifying. |
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JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 05:43:14
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Yes, when you are always watching the borderline parent you yourself get "lost" and the People-pleaser Personality (and Perfectionist and other "pain personalities" begin to emerge.) Then here we are as adults---incomplete and alone.
I am having such a hard time with my youngest now being in school all day. All that empty time. It brings back all the loneliness. I felt so lonely as a kid. I never really wanted a family of my own. I am lucky for what I have.
So much of my life I fought NOT to be crazy. Now I am beginning to wonder! Maybe it is OK to say "I feel crazy!" I think we are burn-outs by the time we are adults.
The other thing I tell myself though is that we need to feel these feelings but not let them choke us. Some people with TMS had ideal childhoods (or close.) The syndrome TMS is what is doing this to us! I wonder if it wants to pull us down. I am trying to focus somewhat (as Brady suggests) on how my personality contributes to my pain. We'll see how it goes. It is hard to do all of this work. Ugh. I feel like a need a personal relationship with someone guiding me and it is hard to find professonals who know about TMS.
Thanks for sharing all of this stuff!
Jane |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 07:50:53
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JaneLeslie,
My youngest left home a couple of years ago, just before I discovered Sarno. What that meant, I realise now, was that the distraction I'd had for 20 years, my chilren, had suddenly gone. I had to face up to my own problems and deal with my own thoughts. It may be the same for you now your son is at school - you suddenly have all the time in the world to think about you - and if you're not happy that's hard.
If you had a borderline parent you at least have a head start on many TMSers as you know where your problems started. Start writing about your feelings about it - journalling makes a huge difference.
Lastly, you said "The syndrome TMS is what is doing this to us! I wonder if it wants to pull us down" - no it's not - it's trying to protect you from your repressed emotions and feelings. It thinks it's helping you.
I didn't try biofeedback and I didn't see a therapist but I've made huge progress with journalling and reading stuff. Probably a dozen books or more so far - Deepak Chopra, Louise Hay, John Lee, Dorothy Rowe, Gregg Jacobs Insomnia book, etc - am I cured? - who knows but I am 100 times happier than when I started.
Anne |
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JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 08:33:29
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Thanks "Scottydog." You made a lot of good points. I have to hold on to the belief that there will be an end to the physical and emotional pain if I keep going. You are right---it is all distraction. I am glad to hear you are doing so well. I miss my little one (girl) so much and I feel like a bad mom for not home schooling her, but I know part of this must be a distraction too from getting to the bottom of this.
It is comforting to think that TMS is helping us. Right now I feel so fearful about it.
Thanks,
Jane |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 09:35:01
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ScottyDog, I'd like to read some Deepak... what is your favorite? He has so many.
Everyone, Great insights are a-flowin
JaneLeslie,
Why do you feel like a "bad mom for not homeschooling"??? This is really interesting to me, b/c I thought I was too with my 5 yo, but then I realized that deep down it wasn't about me homeschooling the children, it was about me protecting them from the outside world, and keeping them untainted and unchanged, only influenced by me. (WOH!!! Geesh, what a selfish-so-and-so I can be sometimes?!!!!! Who knew??? LOL!) This was controlling on my part.
A deeper and more nurturing belief I hold is that I want my girls to adjust and adapt in this sometimes-harsh but wonderful world. I can't keep them in a bubble if I want them to thrive and find THEIR own identities. Now, I'm not saying there is ANYTHING wrong with homeschooling: It is a wonderful option with great merits and advantages. For me, the incongruency came when I had the feeling that I wanted to homeschool, but I didn't put my money where my mouth was and do it. WHY? I asked myself, b/c I knew that for our family, it wasn't the right choice. You have to be committed to do it and it needs to work within your lifestyle. In our case, I had all strikes against me, PLUS I had ill self-serving reasons. My identity was (is) SO wrapped up in theirs. I discovered my TRUE reason for wanting to homeschool was self-serving, and actually I didn't have their best at heart.
Letting go and watching them meet the world outside is terrifying, but I also see it as electrifying. I'm shifting my focus and learning so much from my girls.
Since you and I have so many things in common, I wondered if my experience resonates with you too?
Blessings upon you all
>|< Penny
Non illigitamus carborundum. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 10:35:40
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Are there really people with TMS with ideal childhoods? I am curious because so far it seems that most people who have mentioned theirs on the board say that there was something or other...they were too sensitive and were made fun of, problem parent, or something. I think sometimes our childhoods look great on paper but they are not in reality.
Mine is like that. It is very hard sometimes for me to even acknowledge to myself that I was not adequately nurtured in some ways, because I had all the things kids are "supposed to have" and more (two professionally successful parents, a house, plenty of healthy food, good education, enrichment activities, friends, pets). So I sound like a great miserable ungrateful lump when I complain, compared to people who had a problem parent or were abused or neglected. But I didn't have any nurturing in the area of feeling my uncomfortable feelings, especially anger. Rather I was taught to suppress them. I also was not helped to realize my unique self; instead I tried to live up to their achievement expectations.
My parents couldn't do these things for me because they couldn't even do it for themselves. My inner child is both very sad and very angry about that.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Chicken or Egg (Emotion vs. Nervous system)
