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hsb
149 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2006 : 11:34:14
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Hi again. I successfully dealt with achilles tendonitis and calf issues this summer. I have been able to run for about year now w/o having to take off much time for "injuries". Every time I tried to do something different with my running, I would get a new pain. when I rain 12 miles I developed calf issues. I ran 15 miles and I developed achilles tendonitis issues.
Those distances weren't out of line with what I've been doing.
Lo and behold on Wednesday I decided to try some speedwork. I knew going in I should do too much as a first foray into speedwork in a long time. I ran with my friend who was doing 4 x 1 mile. Even with that warning inside my head I went ahead and did them with her. For the first time doing speedwork I should have done something alot less taxing.
Wednesday night I developed some knee pains. Thursday I ran but something is not right with my knee. As usual I am attaching the pain to this new event ---- the speedwork which was too much for me. hard speedwork = pain if you're not prepared.
So now I am berating myself big time -- I knew I shouldn't but I did it anyway. I am soooo angry with myself because I have been able to go through an entire year without having to stop running and this knee issue is very scary to me. I know if I tell my other running friends what I did their response will be - "how can you do such a long speework workout without even building up to it?" so i cannot tell anyone.
And I sort of agree. So now my knee hurts. Have't run since Thursday and I'm kinda scared to try. Sunda is a running day for me.
Has my luck run out? One whole year with great results - can knee pains be TMS?
Thanks all
HSB
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shari
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 12:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by hsb
so i cannot tell anyone.
Glad you have people you can talk to here.
I think pains and injuries should be taken seriously and not brushed aside as "just another TMS pain" or "there's my brain playing another trick on me." Remember what Sarno says: the first step is the diagnosis. If you have a tear of sprain, give your knee time to heal. If the pain persists, then it might be time to see a doctor. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 12:56:38
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This of course is the $64,000 question. Real or TMS? That is my ultimate struggle big time. I have succeeded in running through achilles and calf stuff. Knee pains are scary for a runner. As I said previously I am attaching the cause of the pain to the speedwoork and berating myself for doing it. But it's done and over.
On the one hand I can say, it is the TMS gremlin trying again and moving this time to my knee. On the other I say, doing so much speedwork for the first time was an invitation for disaster. I wish I had not done it.
I will go for my usual run tomorrow. I don't think I tore anything because it didn't hurt while I was running n thursday, just felt weird.
I am the queen of blame and wishing I never did it.
Thanks.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 13:10:23
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The longer I hang around here the more I see the same cycles of fear and obssesive worry repeating themselves over and over again...
I'm beginning to think Dr. Sarno doesn't pay enough attention to what seems a standard feature of the "TMS mind." I don't think it's enough to deal in a kind of ad hoc fashion with each new pain...I'm beginning to believe that for many of us nothing less than a profound change in the way we approach the world is necessary for genuine and lasting healing...I include myself in this group.
Hs, dollars to donuts you're just dealing with more of the same. But how much better it would be if the next time something crops up you're able to say to yourself, screw it, I'm not falling for this crapolla anymore!!
It's possible you hurt yourself by running too fast, but I would say unlikely...How is what you did any diffeent than the hundreds and thousands of recreational runners who jog along 4 or 5 times a week, then decide to enter a race, say a 10k? Not only is there a good chance he or she is running a good mile or more further than customary, he or she's also running at a much greater speed than normal...It's quite rare that someone's going to really hurt themselves doing this in some significant way....And of those who do have pain, I betcha a good percentage of it is nothing but good 'ol TMS...
GIven your history, this is quite likely what's going on with you..And unlike the recreational runner I used as an example, you're a high mileage guy with lots of experience...I'd be very surpoirsed if it wan't more TMS, or if not that, then no more than transient, benign knee pain, which by the way I get all the time...
One thing I've had to learn as a 55 year old runner, something almost always hurts!! BUt a little pain is not as death sentence, or even a sign that one has to rest...Yesterday I had lots of pain in the ball of my left foot for example, and it simply went away a half hour after my run..Today it's hamstring twinges..I'm not even sure this stuff is always TMS...All I know is it invariably goes away, or at the very least, does not interfere with my running in any significant way..
There will inevitably be a day when I can't run anymore and that will be a sad time indeed...But I don't want to waste the time left to me by worrying about every little twinge....
Life's too short!! (and at 5'7", so am I )
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Edited by - art on 08/12/2006 13:20:52 |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 14:39:47
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art-
thanks for your reply. i thought it was very insightful. yes i agree that the tms mind brings obsessive worry and catastrophizing and repetitive thinking. i have yet to reach the point where i can say to myself with each new pain - it's tms, let it go. i still get very worried. knee pain especially for a runner ain't great.
great analogy to the recreational runner, art. i really never thought about it that way. honestly i rarely entered races w/o having done speed work and my training. tons of people go into races and run really hard and don't get injured.
it is so difficult to get it out of my mind that the speedwork caused this new pain. as dr. sarno says sometimes you need an event to attach the pain too. it is difficult to separate the event and the initiation of the pain.
what is bringing me down is that i am berating myself over and over, why did you do that, you should know better than to start speedwork with 4 x 1 mile, you needed to start with short stuff. 4 x 1 mile is an advanced speed session. damn that song is playing over and over. what a tape loop!!!!!! AND i thought that even before i started on wednesday.
i successfully beat the achilles and calf stuff, not sure why i am thinking the knee pain is the one that sets me back.
art - i appreciate your thoughts. you hit it on the head.
hsb |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 15:02:22
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quote:
i have yet to reach the point where i can say to myself with each new pain - it's tms, let it go. i still get very worried.
I don't want to give the impression that I'm some sort of 3rd degree swami when it comes to this stuff..Cause I'm not. I struggle a lot.
But much of this is choice. You can choose to obsess, and worry, and beat yourself up,or you can choose otherwise..
At the very least, try. You might surprise yourself.. |
Edited by - art on 08/12/2006 15:05:08 |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 16:19:12
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Hsb--I agree w/Art that even if not TMS, whatever knee pain you have is probably benign. I get miscellaneous aches and pains all the time during running, after running, w/out running. Most come and go and don't mean serious harm. For a couple of days this week my old Plantar Fascitis returned in a mild form and it had me scared. Because I am currently on an every day (38th day now) running regimen, I began to obsess that maybe I had overdone it. Not likely at the low miles I have been running. Worn shoes? Could be. TMS? The stress in my life has been building up lately. I'll probably never know the reason and it really doesn't matter. It was simply the obsession of the moment.
I was particularly concerned about the foot pain this time because I am planning on hiking a few 14-ers in CO next week; tough enough w/out foot pain. Anyway, it seems to have faded and I am on to other obsessions. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 17:27:08
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quote:
[I was particularly concerned about the foot pain this time because I am planning on hiking a few 14-ers in CO next week; tough enough w/out foot pain. Anyway, it seems to have faded and I am on to other obsessions
This made me laugh...Nice insight. I suddenly flashed on old Marshal McCluhan (sp)...Instead of the medium being the message though, here it's the obsessing, (as opposed to the obsession)
It must be that we hide behind our repetitive thoughts because as painful as they are, at least they're familiar territory...
One might ask, "Without my obsessions, who would I be?"
Funny, in a scary kind of way, no? |
Edited by - art on 08/12/2006 17:29:03 |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 13:10:01
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I ran my 10 mile run this morning. I was able to get through it. Definitely not pain to stop me in my tracks. I do think there is something amiss with the knee though. I am not going to go to doctors. I should be thrilled that the pain wasn't excruciating, but as a perfectionist, i want no pain. I am 53 years old and i do realize that at this age with 30 miles a week, things will ache. I am hoping this pain too will just dissipate with time. My brain is telling me that there is something wrong and leads me to the obsession. Instead of being happy with doing the 10 miles; I am still scared that it will turn into something worse and unsure whether to continue to run. I will though.
Art, it's that obsession again. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 14:38:40
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Good job hs...By the way, I'm a big fan of day's off or x-training...
I have a kickbike (scooter/bike hybrid) that I ride on off days, as well as a Trikke...(hard to describe)
I'm able to work out nearly every day now, which I love...
I noticed you ran Thursday, the day after the speed work, is that right? The body can handle it, but at the same time it's a smart idea to rest, for me usually in the form of cross training..Just my opinion...
BY the way, good for you at 53...I think wrld is up there too...I often wonder where all the old runners have gone..I started out in 1975 or so, and now very rarely see a contemporary out there...I'm not going to quit til they carry me away in a stretcher..
Movement is life!! |
Edited by - art on 08/13/2006 14:42:44 |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 14:49:48
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Wed. was my first foray into speedwork, hency the self-flagellation. First speedwork - 4 x 1 mile. duh what was i thinking. I ran on Thursday just to get moving after a hard workout. I usually run tues. thurs. sat. sun. i got a little side tracked from the speedwork.
My mind is playing tricks again. Damn if I could run 10 miles, then i can't be in much pain but my mind is going rampant .... i.e., the knee doesn't feel so great, maybe if you stopped running, it will feel better, etc. etc. you know the drill. i am trying hard to get those thoughts out of my head along with the tape loops.
thanks art. i usually swim the days i don't run. good for the legs to rest.
I think my brain needs something to attach itself to. This year has been a great one in terms of sticking with the running and not having to take off time for "injuries". I think one thing that i have been doing is trying not to catastrophize much (can't tell by these posts can you!!! LOL). The underlying stream of thinking the worst is always there. but i am doing better.
thanks art. tomorrow to swim and hope the knee issues have gone south.
hsb |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 15:41:54
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At this stage, I usually take 2 days off between runs, and never run two days in a row if the first day was a hard one.
With all the self-flagellation, I'm surprised you wouldn't take the next day off...
Don't want to set any contrary vibes in motion, but all that unaccustomed speed work, and then not taking the next day to rest is risky in my view...
I think you're absoutely fine, but I might rethink me over-all approach...I might also think about just what was going on internally when you did all that speed work knowing full well that you were setting yourself up for post-run worry...
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Edited by - art on 08/13/2006 15:42:55 |
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weatherman
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 10:29:02
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| If you had physically injured the knee doing speedwork wouldn't it have started hurting right then? But it didn't start hurting until that night - I believe Sarno lists delayed onset pain as another TMS phenomenon. I've sure had some delayed onset pains in my time, all of which turned out to be nonsense. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 10:36:28
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Thanks. I have been thinking about why I did the speedwork and it definitely was a peer pressure kind of thing. I suppose part of it is self-esteem issues. I have been "injured" so many times in my running career (that is what I am known for) and it has been about a year I have been able to stay running w/o any significant time lay off. My runner's ego got in the way. I run much much slower than I ever have before. And it bothers me some, but not alot because i think one of the reasons I have been able to run non-stop for a year is that I haven't gone crazy with speed work and hard training. Sometimes when people I used to be much faster than go blowing by me .................
So I guess I wanted to try to get some speed back but not thinking that I should have eased into it.
I think those were my feelings. It was a battle in my mind before I did it believe me.
Thanks all.
HSB |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 11:06:04
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| HSB - if you ran 10 miles recently and your knee isn't hurting much at this point, then why would you think that you have an injury or should take a break from running? You're mentally setting yourself up for some nasty conditioning.....It's got to be TMS...Also, the point about the delayed onset of the pain is a good one - that also points to TMS.... You need to push on with your regular schedule of running....Admittedly, I'm a walker now, but I do have a long prior history of running. TMS knee pain frequently tried to fool me back when I was running. I'd run through mild to moderate knee pain and walk for a while if it got too severe until the pain backed off. I never had any adverse consequences from this. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 19:05:14
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quote:
I run much much slower than I ever have before.
This is inevitable. We all age at different rates, but I would say it's quitre normal to lose lots of speed by the time we hit our 50's.
It is hard on the ego at times...I was never very fast, but I could run 7's, which is faster than a lot of average type runners...Now I get passed by younger runners all the time...They whizz by me like I'm practically standing still, even though many of them are running no faster than 9's probably....I want to yell after them...."Hey, I used to be able to run like you...In fact, faster than you!!, but of course I don't...They'd just laugh at the old crank...
Getting older is not fun, but I console myself with the knowledge that I'm doing much more than many or even most of my contemporaries... |
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altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 20:52:14
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Have you read any of George Sheehan's books? He was a competitive runner, cardiologist, and a great writer. I have found him to be inspirational. He ran his fastest marathon in his sixties, a 3:01!
I have been extending my long runs, and have found listening to inspirational books on cd very helpful. I run by myself, so it keeps me going mentally and physically. I know this is off the tms subject, but sometimes listening to a great book, I forget about some small but irritating pain. George did his first triathalon in his sixties, days after learning he had prostate cancer. His friends offered to fill in any parts he thought he might not be able to do, ie the bike. He completed his swim, jumped on the bike without thinking. By the time he completed the run, he was overjoyed, and forgot about his cancer, for the moment. He kept on running and writing into his eighties. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 08:39:45
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I ran again today. The knee pain is definitely still there, but not enough to stop me in my tracks, more like a nagging thing. So guess what goes through my mind --- that's right --- if I stop running for (pick a period of time), I would get rid of the pain.
I am trying to fight that though. I believe it is part of the tape loop -- should I or shouldn't I? I am trying to block out the tape loop and continue the run and go with my decision. Tough though.
Thanks Art and Al.
HSB |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 11:53:06
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I'm off for a run of my own...Yesterday on the golf course I had knee pain, right in the spot where I tried out a new quadriceps machine, or rather tried it for the first time in well over a year...
The pain is right where I felt a strain at the end of my set...
I did the usual self-talk...it's TMS, the machine was simply the trigger, etc etc etc...and lo and behold the pain went away..
Unfortunately it came back last night, but I'm pretty sure now that it's TMS...Tempting to take the day off, but no way...
I have read some stuff by him Al...seems to me it was years ago though,..Is he out of Boston by the way? I vaguely remember seeing some highly credentialled running doc amny years ago when I was in my 20's and I can't recall if it was him or not...It was somebody of some note though...
BUt no, on second thought, you say Sheehan was a cardiologist, so wouldn't have been him.. |
Edited by - art on 08/15/2006 11:54:28 |
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altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 18:40:05
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| George Sheehan was kind of a guru of the seventies running boom, and yes he lived in Boston. His books are still popular. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 05:58:05
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Okay guys, ran on Tuesday and my knee ain't great. I am going to try again tomorrow and then reassess. It definitely is not right. It isn't super painful. I never had a knee issue so I am not sure how to rate this pain. It certainly hasn't gotten better. I am wondering of course if I should take time off and rest or keep trying. I have the incessant tape loop of "if I take time off, it will get better, but what if it doesn't" AND "running on it will make it worse". YUCK YUCK.
I think it was Art who said, if you choose to obsess..... I think that is the most difficult thing for me, the incessant tape loops of the same uncertainy. Do or not do.
So I will run tomorrow and see if it gets worse and then decide whether to take a week off. HATE THIS.
Thanks All
HSB |
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Attention: All Runners
