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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
 Posted - 07/13/2006 : 20:49:01
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Hey Tom,
You started a good one here! Seems I am in the minority in my viewpoints..but that's okay..That is the story of my life..LOL..
Are there any other believers on this site or am I really that unique here?
Just curious...
BTW,,,did you notice i didn't start a new post today..I am learning..And..my pain is worse then usual, major muscles spasms in my neck and back of my head...It all happened after I painted for the first time in 7 weeks..Maybe it's cuz I am nervous about my wine and cheese opening reception on Tuesday, it is a big deal.. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 21:01:08
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| Yes, SA, I am a believer. Borned-again, as they say in Appalachia! I would say that my reluctance to commit to this belief is not unlike the reluctance I went through to believe the HBP theory, a parallel that should come as no surprise. I find great solace in my views and have arrived at them through a rather arduous skepticism. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 21:39:02
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quote:
Briefly,there are no fossilized remains to indicate an orderly evolutionary process in mankinds past...There is a huge gap, in other words...If evolution were true wouldn't there be a intermediate species that would be in the transitionary state between Ape and Man? We have Ape's still and we have Man, but we don't have Ape-Man...(well for the most part, lol)...
From a website on the subject as the language is more precise than mine would be..."It doesn't matter (to the creationist he's saying) that some of the "humans" have a brain size well below the normal human range, heavy brow ridges, no chin, and teeth larger than modern ones set in a projecting jaw, or that some of the "apes" were bipedal, with very humanlike teeth, and brains larger than those of similar sized apes. There are some skulls which cannot be reliably assigned to either genus. (Willis 1989)
This is exactly what we would expect if evolution had occurred. If, on the other hand, creationism was true and there was a large gap between humans and apes, it should be easy to separate hominid fossils into humans and apes. This is not the case. "
To be honest with you, it's a litle scary (perhaps even appalling) to me that in this day and age people are stil having this discussion (those are my words)...
The argument that things must be intelligently designed because they are complex is what they were saying back in 1400. It simply doesn't follow logically. All the necessary evolutionary processes have been well established to account for things like the development of the human eye.
Utter nonsense, all of it.
quote:
At one time in history the scientific consensus was that the world was flat and the heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth...
I think there are some fundamentalists out there who still believe this...
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Edited by - art on 07/13/2006 21:47:57 |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 21:51:10
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| Art--The Creationists got so much flack in the 80's and 90's they had to recreate themselves (born again) into "Intelligent Designers"--really the same thing with a fresh coat of paint. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 22:39:07
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| Singer, I am a believer, but I hold back on this site because it is about TMS. I do read the bible and pray and I believe there is a lot of wisdom in the bible. I really don't like the term religion, U believe what the bible says. As far as evolution goes, biblically I don't see any proof of evolution. The very first verse in the bible states "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Then later he created the animals and then it says He created man in his image. It aslo states tha man was created from the dust of the earth, not the fish of the sea or the ape of the land. We were created in God's image, not a monkey's image. I'm not here to start a debate or say I'm right, I believe the bible and I try to find answers there. Religion means nothing to me. Another thing bothers me about evolution is if we did come from fish or apes, then why aren't they still turning into humans today. If evolution is the process today, why aren't we still evolving? Not meaning to pick on anyone, but I believe it to be a logical question. Science cannot explain everything, sometimes it just takes simple old faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. |
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 22:49:02
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
On page 31, of THE DIVIDED MIND, Dr. Sarno makes reference to the "celestial architect".
As a Christian, I certainly wouldn't mind if Dr. Sarno stated a belief in God. However, I don't think that's what happened here. The "celestial architect" line is in a paragraph about Dr. Candance Pert, who is known for converting to Christianity. (See the 2nd editorial review of Pert's "Molecule of Emotions" on Amazon...http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684846349/102-2522152-6286505?v=glance&n=283155) It seems to me that Sarno is simply paraphrasing Dr. Pert's view of God rather than stating his own.
Jim |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 00:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by art
quote:
There are huge loopholes in the theory of evolution
Name one. 
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The missing link. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 00:11:15
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quote:
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At one time in history the scientific consensus was that the world was flat and the heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth...
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I think there are some fundamentalists out there who still believe this...
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Name one  |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 00:25:56
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"The thing is there is no debate in the scientific community. Evolution is about as settled as gravity."
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Is this the same scientific community that does not recognze Dr. Sarno's TMS theory?
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 01:43:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim1999
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
On page 31, of THE DIVIDED MIND, Dr. Sarno makes reference to the "celestial architect".
As a Christian, I certainly wouldn't mind if Dr. Sarno stated a belief in God. However, I don't think that's what happened here. The "celestial architect" line is in a paragraph about Dr. Candance Pert, who is known for converting to Christianity. (See the 2nd editorial review of Pert's "Molecule of Emotions" on Amazon...http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684846349/102-2522152-6286505?v=glance&n=283155) It seems to me that Sarno is simply paraphrasing Dr. Pert's view of God rather than stating his own.
Jim
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Hi Jim,
I don't mean to be disagreeable, but I disagree. I read page 31 again and Dr. Sarno's mention of the "celestial being" are his words and not Pert's. He is not paraphrasing her. It is interesting that Dr. Pert converted to Christianity, since Dr. Sarno relies on her work with polyneuropeptides as a foundation for his theory. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 07/14/2006 01:45:32 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 03:17:12
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Name a fundamentalist who believes the world is flat....
I had a neighbor about ten years ago who used to tell me the world was created 5000 years ago (or somethinig in that range), that dinosaurs didn't exist, that the trip to the moon in 1969 was faked in a studio, and that if you wanted to see if the earth was flat all you had to do was look out the window...
quote:
Is this the same scientific community that does not recognze Dr. Sarno's TMS theory?
There is a vast difference between the medical community and the rest of the scientific world...
quote:
THe missing link
The missing link is in your reading skills as this was covered in my previous post...at least with respect to what the fossil record reveals, which is clear and convincing evidence of the evolution of man...Then there's the genetic evidence which if anything is even more compelling...We share something like 95 percent of our genes with chimps for example...I'll see if I can google that and come up with an exact number...
Of course TT, we know from prior experience that you're never going to change your mind about anything, but that's fine...
Edit: Just to add, this kind of thinking is quite discouraging to me when considering man's chances of surviving the next 100 years...It seems to me that if we can't all agree on those things that are obviously true, there's not a lot of hope...
THese sorts of beliefs, whether we're talking about fundamentalism (whether Christian or Muslim or any other religions), intelligent design, or for the matter the belief that all the Jews who worked in the World Trade Center got phone calls on the morning of 9/11 so they could stay home form work, requires two kinds of effort. The first is an active, purposeful disregard for all that evidence (and there's plenty of it of course) that is inconsistent with whatever their chosen world view is.
The second is a kind of intentional laziness. All any intellectually honest intelligent design person has to do is read a few books...Hell, just visit a few websites...The stubborn claim that the fossil record does not support evolution is just plain false...overwhelmingly and demonstrably false...
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Edited by - art on 07/14/2006 05:06:58 |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 09:09:13
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Dear Hillybilly, 2scoops, and Jim! Praise God, I am not alone..not that it matters really, because as you pointed out 2scoops this site is about TMS...But, I think it's fine that Tom brought up such an important subject..and it gives us something to talk about instead of our pains and recovery...And, I, probably more then most on here need to talk about something other then my pain...
Hillybilly,
I could have written EXACTLY word for word what you last said...I came to my beliefs through alot of skepticism too and I am going through the same thing w/ accepting my TMS diagnosis 100percent..Probably why I am still suffering and had a terrible night last night after trying to paint for the first time in 7 weeks...My muscles in my neck and back of my head went into major spasm and I was forced to take heavy pain killers...I had gone for acupuncture for the first time in a long time...Normally, in the past, it has helped..But this time it did not...I am sure it's because as Dave and others pointed out, I need to not reinforce the idea that there is something wrong with my neck! So I am a work in progress...OOPS..off the subject..(back to the subject)..
It's all about FAITH and SURRENDER and getting out of your HEAD and into your HEART/SOUL..For me anyway...This is true regarding my belief in God/Jesus and in my belief that I have TMS and by the grace of God and alot of hard work..I will HEAL!
Didn't know Candace Pert found the Lord..That's great! It's even more wonderful when an intelligent Quantum Psychisist finds God...Molecules of Emotion is a wonderful book!
Art,
You are my buddy regardless of our differences in beliefs...You know that though, right?
Hugs to you all and God bless,
Karen |
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Bat Ears
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 09:37:42
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I'm new here, but I've been reading the messages for a long time. Now it is time to put in my oar. A few brief points: Art is right about evolution. Religion and evolution are not mutually exclusive. (The open-minded acceptance of that is one of the things I liked about the Roman Catholic Church before they lost my interest.) If you want to have a legitimate basis for argument, don't argue from a standpoint of ignorance. Read something other than the Bible, such as the Koran, Joseph Campbell's works in comparative mythology "The Masks of God," Stephen Jay Gould's "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory," etc.
If one wishes to bring the supernatural into one's defeat of the TMS gremlin, that's fine: whatever works in your own "thinking psychologically."
However, I would like to point out an observation I have made in some postings to this forum, along the lines of faith: there is a TMS principle that says "Belief that the pain is emotional is the crucial first step to healing. Therefore, belief that the pain is physical must be repudiated." This belief is not an act of faith. It is real knowledge that, first, starts with understanding of Dr. Sarno's principles ("see yourself on every page" and know that the symptoms cannot be caused by the alleged physical abnormalities) and second, is confirmed by the solid evidence of improvement with a psychological approach. I think if you try to base your TMS strategy on a leap of faith, you may be striving for some kind of mental placebo. Sorry if this seems off-topic (must be OK if we all can talk about evolution) but I just thought maybe some strong believers in their respective faiths may be on the wrong TMS track. The right track is to start out with open-mindedness and confidence (not an act of faith), then do the work, and then the knowledge (belief) will come.
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 09:56:19
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Singer, I have comprised a list of biblical healing verses that you may enjoy reading. This is not the place to post it, so if you want I could e-mail them to you if you want to give me your e-mail address.
I guess one conclusion I have come to is this, our pain is caused by what we BELIEVE is causing our pain, though it may not be necessarily true. What is causing our pain, can be different for all of us, as far as life pressures, guilt, shame, fear, etc. But the common theme is that we need to believe and have faith that we will get better. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 10:16:07
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" and that if you wanted to see if the earth was flat all you had to do was look out the window..."
You must admit the chap makes a good point.
Art, I guess its time for your monthly explosion, and I'm quite happy to serve as your voo-doo doll. Stick all the pins in me you want, if it relieves your TMS angst. Must have something to do with the recent full moon.
It is amazing to me how you associate all the evils of mankind with me, having never met me, and based upon such a small sample of what may--or may not be--my true thoughts.
Actually, our views, on many issues, are quite similar, especially the dim view of the next 100 years. I guess Freud would call this projection. We despise the ones that mirror us the most. I am not a fundamentalist accept for tennis, but if anyone has strong religous beliefs I have nothing but adimiration for them, I wish I did--there are no atheists in the foxholes but probably many at Pete's coffee.
In your mind I, and anyone else, who does not bow to your way of thinking, is responsible for every evil under the sun, from 9/11 to nuclear aniliation--must be a liberal thing--guilt by association.
You seem to characterize anyone who has a religious belief to be a "fundamentalist". I haven't been to synagogue for years, and am certainly not very religious in the organized sense, accept for the church of the tennis court on all three sabbath days. Do you believe those who believe in what are now the "in" religions like Zen Budhism, shamanism and animism, also fundamentalist? I've seen a lot more fundamentalist behavior in yoga classes, namaste', than in the general population, which is quite secular, or dare I say pagan.
I was an anthro/archaelolgy major, way back at SF State, during the 60's, when Timothy Leary was considered the intellectual guru of his age and his thinking is well demonstrated in your's...touche'...you fired the first shot Art. I didn't call you names, I only made some intelectual points.
Well, I was in the field digging, as well as in the lab, library and museums. In fact, I was awarded a bottle of champagne for finding the first burial on a dig. After participaing in numerous digs and seeing how the evidence is obtained, and the methods used to extrapolate theory from the meager material, "it's much to do, about next to nothing". The fossil evidence for the prehistoric and ancient past is so thin that neither evolution or religion has much going for it except debate. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
Art, get your nose out of the library, and hit the streets. You may see for yourself, as your astute neighbor did, that for all practical purposes, the world is flat. I for one, am an anarchist--why swim up stream?
Your TMS pin cushion,
tt
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Edited by - tennis tom on 07/14/2006 10:23:43 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 10:29:20
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Welcome Bat Ears,
Good post ! I'd like to comment but blew my morning wad replying to Art. Maybe later.
Cheers,
tt |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 12:15:51
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Holy Cow, Batman?! Why do things so easily get tense on here? I mean people arguing and insulting one another...And believe me, I know what that feels like because I have been at the receiving end of it too...FIrst off...
2Scoops, Please do drop me a line at my regular email..All you have to do is click on my name here (Singer Artist) and it will show you how t email me...I cannot post my regular email on this live forum..I had to edit that out of 3 emails because some angry person felt the need to take a big pot shot at me via regular email..She (just a guess) was too chicken to tell me who she was on here, and if I put my email inserted here I could be subject to some trash like that again, down the line...I would love to talk to you out of here! What you said about Creation and Evolution not being compatible was 100 percent correct...Sometimes I open my mind too much and get mixed up...Thanx for clarifying!
Bat Ears,
Hiya, and welcome..Some good points about how to approach TMS...thanx...But I have to say one thing, because I think something you said was directed partly at me...I have read many other things besides the Bible, believe me! I studied in monasteries, in fact, with Tibetan monks for many years..My roomie has a copy of the Koran and I have looked at that...I have studied MANY other religions and philosophies even in college..In fact, I was a Math and Psychology major but took alot of philosophy courses out of high interest..I was a Math Tutor in college and I tutored philosophy as well...So I am no dummy, and I am not narrow minded either...I have come to my conclusion based on previous studies followed by a cellular knowingness at the core of my being..Even now as a born again Christian I attend both charismatic churches, Catholic mass (was raised Catholic) and a Messianic Jewish synagogue..
Art,
After re reading your posts, as much as we have connected also outside of here and I like you as a human being...I have to say this...Your tone and some of what you said really was insulting to me directly (w/o mentioning my name) and insulting to Tom, 2Scoops, Jim and Hillbilly (as well as any other believers on here who haven't contributed to this thread)...Sorry but that is my opinion, and I still like you even given our vastly different opinions, as I mentioned earlier...However, I do denote some anger in some of your words...Just wondering why you were sooooo turned off to God...What happened to make you like this? You say your are Agnostic, but really it seems you are an Atheist...
More for the Atheists...
If I were such a closed minded fundamentalist I would not be studying QUantum Physics or listening to the Art Bell show when it is appropriate in my eyes...and not anti Christian...All this Bashing of Christianity and believers is certainly NOT of the Light...Just like the Yin and Yang,,,just like Black and White and Up and Down..there is God and there is the Opposite of God..namely Satan...Everyone gets mad at God when things go wrong down here..But God has nothing to do with it..He created us humans with a free will and we are the ones (w/ the influence of the Enemy) who have screwed up this planet, not God..
Oh well..I should have listened to mom..she said never discuss religion or politics..lol..Politically I am more liberal then conservation...Just wanted to clarify that because so many people 'assume' that believers in our Lord Jesus Christ are as backward as SOME of the very right winged people in political office and on our beautiful planet...I won't even mention names here because it will probably start a very heated political discussion!
God bless you all!
With love,
Karen |
Edited by - Singer_Artist on 07/14/2006 12:28:11 |
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wolf29
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 12:49:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Singer_Artist
Oh well..I should have listened to mom..she said never discuss religion or politics..lol..
Ok, who's up for good sex discussion then?  |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 13:03:22
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| Oh my goodness, Wolf! Don't get me started on another heated discussion...hehe (said w/ a NJ accent!) I am a hurting pup today...barely got thru last night...Guess it's conditioning because it all got so much worse after i painted yesterday...I shouldn't even be typing cuz that seems to be another trigger... |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 13:36:51
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No, no, no!
Art, I'm not insulted by your comments. I can speak in my own words and dialect. Thanks! I hear ya on some of what you said. I think you are much like me, a pragmatist when it comes to information. If it isn't useful, you don't need it. I respect that. |
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Sarno Believes in G - D
