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alix
USA
434 Posts |
 Posted - 05/18/2006 : 12:08:40
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Peter,
Don't you think that there is some truth to the response David Wise gave you a while back?
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1811
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You cannot talk yourself out of trigger points in your quadratus lumborum that are causing severe testicular pain or trigger points in your anterior levator ani which are causing penile pain and post ejaculatory discomfort. In a way it is not helpful to tell people with pelvic pain to just get over it and focus on their psychological problems.
I know for a fact that David Wise is very much aware of Sarno's work (and admires it) and he made me understand that it didn't work for him. Severe pelvic dysfunction does not show on MRIs and only a handful of uros know how to diagnose that. (Yes, I know that Sarno said Prostatitis is TMS and I don't doubt Prostatitis/CPPS sufferers recovered from it but some don't)
I know that it is blasphemous to focus on physical symptoms on this forum and I will probably be lectured but Peter, you may not have TMS. |
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salamander
85 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2006 : 13:54:27
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Peter,
If I was in your position, and had exhausted all efforts at trying to find a cure, I would go and see the "man" himself. Life is too short to "get by" with the sort of pains and problems that you describe.
Based on your description of the medical problems that you have had, as well as the tests performed, coupled with your "fit" to the Sarno profile, it sure seems that TMS is your problem. I would make every effort to see Sarno himself and have him look over all your MRI', etc....
It just might be what you need to do to get the necessary "reinforcement" to get over this damn thing. I know that Sarno supposedly sees only New York patients, but I would do everything in my power to get around that.
Best of luck,
Doug |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2006 : 14:59:05
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I think one of the biggest problems is the insistence that we must recover within a short period of time or else we may want to question the diagnosis. This is wrong headed and is leading to more suffering for people like me and others who are stuggling with their recovery.
Bravo for your patience.
Hilary N |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2006 : 21:54:43
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Hi Peter,
Sarno reccommends returning to normal activity. Have you tried doing so? What happens if you have? |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 05:57:30
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No Alix you are dead wrong as is Dr. Wise who mischieviously distorts Dr. Sarno's teachings in his comments. Dr. Wise himself does not have a high success rate, and I would be interested to hear from those people who recovered using his methods regarding what other pain symptoms they have developed due to the symptom imperative which is discussed in Dr. Sarno's latest book. I have TMS as the combination of my symptoms indicates. I will not even entertain any other possibility. Just because the progress has been slow and uneven does not invalidate the diagnosis.
Thanks for the Bravos HilaryN. As for your comments where you stated that my posts "often seem to have an academic, intellectual quality to them which seems to circumvent an emotional response," this is indeed a keen observation and something worth exploring. Most likley it has to do with wanting to be recognized by others due to self esteem issues.
As for emotional my responses to not "healing," (there is nothing to actually heal) yes it is enraging and I shamefully feel enraged at people who do heal, as I get the impression I am being looked down upon or seen as a lesser or stupid person for not recovering, and also rage directed towards Dr. Sarno and at TMS theory in general for leading us to believe the recovery would be faster when in fact the opposite is many times true.
As for what I do with that rage, it appears I bottle it up and use it as yet another indication of my feelings of low self worth where other people always achieve more than I do. It is an emotional affliction that has been with me all my life.
Onward me laddies, there are new horizions to conquer! |
Edited by - n/a on 05/19/2006 06:09:57 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 10:36:48
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quote:
No Alix you are dead wrong as is Dr. Wise who mischieviously distorts Dr. Sarno's teachings in his comments.
Wow! To say that Dr.Wise is mischievous is laughable.
I would take your comment seriously if Sarno had helped you but as it stands you have no way to disprove Wise. |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 10:50:46
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Peter, I'm not saying you should give up, but clearly it would be worth trying a different approach. You believe the TMS concept, see yourself in the books, feel that it applies to you, but you have had no improvement in 1 1/2 years.
I can't recall if you've mentioned in your other posts, but have you tried psychotherapy? Have you read some of the other books like Fred Amir's, or tried Schechter's workbook? If not, I would recommend one of those approaches. The other idea I would mention is that some people try to use participating in TMS, whether that be reading and buying every relevant book, or posting and reading the forums regularly, as a substitute for doing the real work for themself. In that way, I would agree--get out of here! Being involved in the forum can be detrimental for some.
The other possibility is that you could try a totally different approach altogether. I don't want to hear any flames, but what about: acupuncture, naturopathy, chiropractic, or any of the other alternative therapies? Sarno himself admits that TMS is not for everyone. You need to find what is going to work for you. Sometimes that means going around the block and then coming back with a different mindset that can benefit from the TMS concept. It's no moral or personal failing of your own if it doesn't work, so maybe it's worth another approach. |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 13:43:41
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Dr. Ziggles,
I have read all of those books you have mentioned and have also tried numerous sessions of psycotherapy with two different therapists. Fred Amir's book was helpful and got me working out in the gym for my own physical health. As for the suggestion of acupuncture, naturopathy, chiropractic, and other alternative modalities they are cleary for crackpots and have no scientific validity other than possible a placebo effect. In fact, many of these people should be thrown into prison for their damn lies and snake oil methods which many times causes more harm than good. They are also resorting to physical modalities and I do not have a physical problem, I have TMS. The problem is not in my body- the problem is in my brain which stubbornly refuses to give up. Please read page 251 of Dr. Sarno's new book where Andrea Leonard-Segal, MD correctly points out that the medical literature is replete with articles which point to the fact that structure does not predict pain. However, the Dr. writes, "the conventional interpretation of these studies is to contort them [ie the studies] and attribute the pain to structural abnormalities." Hmmmmm......
The recommendation of resumption of normal physical activity is the best advice you have given me in your posting and it is the number one most effective method of bringing about a complete and total recovery from this horrid condition. I am in fact doing this and with time and patience I will improve.
I have dispenced a lot of advice on this message board in the past and, for the most part, I have followed my own advice also, although the many recommendations I have recieved are much appreciated.
Well, I'm off to study for my American literature course. Gotta love that Hawthorne, but definetly not Emerson- yuck! |
Edited by - n/a on 05/19/2006 13:44:27 |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 14:19:58
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Peter,
I think it is unfair to throw all other treatment modalities into the trash without abandon! To state there is no scientific validity to chiropractic, acupuncture and naturopathy and to liken practitioners to crackpots selling snake oil is simply too narrow a view. I agree there are many times when these practitioners are not helpful (by definition, they WON'T be helpful w/TMS, unless via placebo effect). However, the same can be said for ANY practitioner in any field. One can follow the views of Sarno and still see the value (when appropriate) in other areas. The world is not so black and white.
Okay, got that off my chest. What I really wanted to address was this idea of anger being the culprit. I've been doing the Sarno thing for about 8 mos and I see significant improvement but I'm not able to locate the "rage". The therapist I've been seeing says that it doesn't necessarily have to be anger but it could be other emotions that cause TMS. Perhaps, Peter, you are looking for the wrong emotion. For me, it was something else entirely.
Another thing that cleared things up for me is that apparently most w/TMS don't have a sudden epiphany coinciding w/immediate relief. My therapist said that its actually more common to have a gradual clearing of symptoms over time. It makes sense when you think of it. It took years to get that way.
I really hope you can find relief and I have benefitted from your posts as well. Like the others, I also think a long vacation from this forum would do a world of good. How about limiting yourself to 1 hour a month to "catch up"? I bet you'd read the posts w/a vastly different view.
Nora |
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ssjs
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 16:27:30
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Honestly Peter! no one sees you as stupid because you have not healed! Our minds are so complicated, who can say what is really going on! Maybe you are in the process of healing!
For myself, I just said "ok no more pain" and after some intense psycotherapy...VERY INTENSE...I actually got worse, went to Dr. Sarno, had an MRI recommeded by him that looked pretty bad to the neurologist, but Sarno said it was ok, and I have been fine ever since. Be mad at me, but use that anger to show everyone that you can do it too. Show me up!
Be better than me. Feel better than me!
And stop reading these boards! I am telling you with all of these years pain free, I still get a twinge after I read these!
You are obsessed with your pain. Going over this so much cannot be helping.
Sometimes trying to help others isn't helpful to ourselves. Debating and debating just keeps it in the front of all of your thoughts.
Just my opinion. |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 16:32:28
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Thanks for your advice Nor, which is appreciated. You may want to read this post on chiropractors:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1721&SearchTerms=chiropractors
Yes, I am sure deep seated anger is a major culprit in my case, coupled with low self esteem issues.
For those who don't know, the word "Nor" means "light" in Arabic. It's a nice name filled with a lot of deep meaning. Since God is light, one often hears the name Abdul Nor or servant- Abdul- of The Light.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 17:02:40
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Peter,
It's funny, but I was about to start a thread on your behalf to see if we could all put our collective heads together and eom up with something for you, then I find it's already being done!!
Here's my take...You and I have had lots of disagreements in the past, but I respect you. I hope the reverse is true...
Based on everything you've written I absolutely believe you have TMS...How much are you pushing your body? For me, that's the cure. If my knees hurt, I run. I'm betting that if you just start some sort of program whereby every day you push yourself a little more, you'll get better...
I haven't read the whole thread, so if this has been covered, or if this is something you're already doing, I apologize. But my guess is you're complicating things much more than they have to be...
Movement is the key. At least, that's what's worked for me.. |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 20:01:39
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Yes, I bicycle often and also work out in the gym. I walk a lot also.
Hurts a lot but I do it anyway. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2006 : 12:33:52
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| I hate to give this advise - as I haven't done the same YET myself (but plan to this weekend)- but why not turn the activity level up a notch and move into jogging/running rather than just walking? That would be a way to fight back aggressively - to tell your brain that you are on to the structural charade and you're not going to take it any more. Plus it would get those endorphins in the brain moving more than walking does......I need to get back into running - walking is wonderful and I do it every morning with my dog, but it doesn't give you the depression-relieving mental high and sense of mastery that running does - I should know - I ran 6 miles a day for nearly 10 years until I let an orthopedic surgeon scare me out of it - it never hurt to run until he told it was risky. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 01:16:42
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Hi Peter,
Which of the events, on the Holmes-Rahe "list of stressful life events", (cited on page 26 of THE MINDBODY PRESCRIPTION), are causing your TMS?
Regards,
tt |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 18:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Fox
I hate to give this advise - as I haven't done the same YET myself (but plan to this weekend)- but why not turn the activity level up a notch and move into jogging/running rather than just walking? That would be a way to fight back aggressively - to tell your brain that you are on to the structural charade and you're not going to take it any more. Plus it would get those endorphins in the brain moving more than walking does......I need to get back into running - walking is wonderful and I do it every morning with my dog, but it doesn't give you the depression-relieving mental high and sense of mastery that running does - I should know - I ran 6 miles a day for nearly 10 years until I let an orthopedic surgeon scare me out of it - it never hurt to run until he told it was risky.
I agree with this...I believe we heal by pushing ourselves to the very limit, and then even going beyond. I'll bet anything you begin to get better.. |
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Curiosity18
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 18:15:24
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Tennis Tom,
I admire your determination in pushing through the pain, while not completely deciding whether or not you have TMS. I'm wondering if one more consultation from a TMS physician might give you that final small percentage that it would take for the TMS diagnoses to take hold. I know that Mark Sopher does phone consultations, and he was especially helpful to me. You might have caught Schecter on an off day, which happens to the best of them. I sent my records and reports to Sopher, and he zeroed in on what was going on. Just a thought-
Curiosity |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 23:26:53
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I haven't been on this forum much lately. It wasn't planned, but maybe it is because I have been feeling much better than I did several months ago. I even completed another marathon two weeks ago.
That said, I still do have occasional mild symptoms such as my left hamstring tightening up. But most of the other scary stuff is gone. What I'm left with is a gnawing dread that someday all that will return and I don't know how I will deal with it again.
I've made much progress in my goal to stay away from researching symptoms, seeing doctors, thinking about illness. Today I happened to run into my doctor and during a friendly exchange I jokingly commented that I was trying to stay away from doctors. He replied, "That sounds like a pretty good policy."
Here's something I've been noticing about myself: Several months ago, during the worst of my physical symptoms, I would have thought I was in Heaven to feel the way I do now, but do I? Absolutely not! It's incredible how quickly one adapts and soon finds other things to worry about. It lends credence to the theory of "happiness setpoint"; that whatever happens (good or bad) in one's life, one is soon back to one's original setpoint, determined by genes and early environment. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 11:04:51
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Hi Curiosity,
Thanks for your kind words. Just LOST a lengthly reply post (after thinking I had properly saved it just in case)--very frustrating! 
'Will try to ressurect it later.
Cheers,
tt |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 17:45:11
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quote:
Here's something I've been noticing about myself: Several months ago, during the worst of my physical symptoms, I would have thought I was in Heaven to feel the way I do now, but do I? Absolutely not! It's incredible how quickly one adapts and soon finds other things to worry about. It lends credence to the theory of "happiness setpoint"; that whatever happens (good or bad) in one's life, one is soon back to one's original setpoint, determined by genes and early environment.
I don't think you'll find any real peace until you conquer that dread you talk about. That's the core of your illness in my opinion. It saps your spirit and drains your energy, setting you up for future illness and injury. I know whereof I speak, at least in terms of my personal experience...We're all different..
(Congrats on the marathon by the way!) |
Edited by - art on 05/23/2006 06:42:26 |
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Dr. Sarno is a genius
