| Author |
 Topic  |
|
jilly_girl
USA
108 Posts |
 Posted - 01/15/2006 : 18:41:08
|
 read it again...read it again...you dont understand...read it again...you both sound like parrots. i'm so sorry there are those of us here on the forum less enlightened than dave and peter. perhaps we can achieve your high level of understanding and get over our stupidity.
Jill |
 |
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2006 : 19:20:00
|
jilly_girl,
I honestly don't feel I am more enlightened than anyone else on this forum, although you may be correct that I may indeed be stupid. But we are all in the same boat here, trying to recover from this horrid condition and at times getting frustrated so we take it out on one another. Please do remember that the source of your TMS is not me, even as the source of my TMS is not you. It is something within us that is triggering the physical symptoms and it is there we must explore.
If I have written something that has angered you then I am sorry. It is not easy communicating via e-mail without the benefit of seeing the person I am communicating with.
I don't have to remind you, however, that this is a discussion forum on TMS and the work of Dr. John E. Sarno, so if I quote him a lot it is because I believe in his work and because his work has helped thousands and thousands of people. It is when other treatment modalities, which are many times bogus or a diversion from the real problem, are brought up with no concrete evidence to back them up, then yes, I do express my disagreement. It is much safer, in my opinion, to defer to the accumulated knowledge of Dr. Sarno than to steer off course and in the process end up pro-longing our suffering. |
Edited by - n/a on 01/15/2006 19:21:58 |
|
|
|
jilly_girl
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2006 : 22:04:18
|
i'm sorry i was sarcastic, but its hard to even discuss when you are told "you dont get it" or "reread the book" so often. i am rereading the book lol. i am studying it and trying my best. i may veer off topic sometimes, but not intentionally. this isnt an easy issue to understand. we have to remember to be gentle with people asking questions instead of giving a "just read the book!" answer. I just want to be well. I cannot work due to the pain, although i feel i am seeing some improvement. I DESPERATELY need to be working now due to finances. i'm trying. so are you, i'm sure. thanks.
Jill |
|
|
|
wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2006 : 00:05:02
|
I'm sure I have said this another time, another place on this forum, but I will never be a "true believer" of Sarno or any other authority. Each expert is only as good as his record of success. Sarno claims to have thousands of satisfied customers. Fair enough. Of course, as even Sarno will admit, none of his evidence of success is of the kind a physical scientist would accept. This doesn't mean it's not valid, but it certainly opens it up for greater scrutiny.
Many on this forum say they have been cured or greatly helped by using Sarno's theories and I think that's great. If you are one of these people it is easy to be a believer. But for those of us who might still be on the road to recovery, belief is an act of faith. To do as some suggest; read the book, don't question anything the infallible leader has written, don't go to outside sources for the truth...sure sounds like religion to me. |
|
|
|
Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2006 : 00:34:05
|
Some are cured by reading the book and acknowledging that their symptoms are caused by repressed emotions.
For others it requires more work. Working out (by whichever method seems best for you) what you might be repressing and why the repressed emotions are there. Accepting that you are a goodist/ perfectionist or whatever and dealing better with the pressures that that raises.
Journalling, reflecting deeply on what and why things anger you. Building your self esteem. There's lots to do.
I'm about 80% cured of TMS after a year but I also understand myself better than anytime in my life and am happier and more easygoing as a result so keep working on it and don't give up - it's definitely worth it.
Anne |
|
|
|
Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2006 : 08:07:21
|
Of course, as even Sarno will admit, none of his evidence of success is of the kind a physical scientist would accept. This doesn't mean it's not valid, but it certainly opens it up for greater scrutiny.
This is very true.
don't go to outside sources for the truth...sure sounds like religion to me.
[/quote]
Yes And.. if this board is going to focus on "the only right way to read Sarno" it will soon be out of oxygen.
Kajsa |
|
|
|
davebhoy
United Kingdom
15 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2006 : 10:46:12
|
i notie whenever i look in on these types of discussion that the female viewpoint and the male vieewpoint always seem to be different.
made me think about recovery stories and "cures" for cfs of which reverse therapy is one.
i think it may be the case that women are more inclined to accept what they are told when it comes to treatment theories and do as the therapist of docctor tells them. men. men, however often think they know better or at least need to knwo that some of this is their own idea or their own doing. it means that they complicate things or dont follow the protocol exactly - like we have to add our own ideas.
i really get this impression from the recovery stories i read.
i also think that reverse therapy and the like work better or at least quicker on people who have been suffering from cfs for a shorter time. its like its easier to reverse the negative thought and behaviour patterns if they havent had as long to really take hold. the two year thing seems to be a bit of a threshhold. |
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2006 : 11:49:05
|
I personally think the real problem is that deep down inside many don't accept Dr. Sarno's diagnosis even when they say they do. These lingering doubts keep TMS sufferers running after other treatment modalities. Unless one is prepared to believe in the diagnosis and the treatment program 100% to the point they are willing to risk eveything, then there will be little or no resolution to the person's TMS problem.
I will personally continue to quote Dr. Sarno over and over again as his methods have helped thousands and thousands people and that, my friends, is a preety amazing track record. If you want to sow seeds of doubt in people's minds on this message board remember you are not only hurting yourself but contributing to the suffering of others who have found great benefit from Dr. Sarno's work as they may begin to waver in their belief when they read the reflections of naysayers and doubters. Do you want to live with that knowledge? If the answer is yes, then that is very sad indeed. For this reason I suggest if you have doubts then keep them to yourself or journal about them.
Those who take issue with my approach may possibly want to examine their personality traits and see what causes them to re-act the way they do. I know on my end I am doing this for myself.
Personally, I am interested in pursuing success and a proven track record and not merely chasing illusions.
|
Edited by - n/a on 01/16/2006 16:17:39 |
|
|
|
jilly_girl
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2006 : 20:50:27
|
peter if you cant discuss your doubts, questions or other issues, what is the point of a message board? I dont need to examine my personality traits either LOL. A message board is for discussion.
I will not pretend i understand this TMS 100 percent when i dont. that would be absurd.
Jill |
|
|
|
gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 01:38:38
|
Peter,
I don’t think that someone here wants to sow seed of doubts. But If we have them we are not going to pretend that we have not. I and some of people here just want to get rid of all the doubts. See, It took dr Sarno many years to discover where is the reason of symptoms in spite of the fact that he was every day surrounded by sufferers. I am also scientist and as long in the theory is something unclear as long it is not going to work. For some of us total acceptance is very easy, for some not. I was said that I should battle with my own mind on which I relied all my life. I must use my mind to battle with my mind. This is craziness, this is dark zone. The unconscious mind is storing something – the more I dig, the more I tremble at the morning.
I want to know what will be at the end of this therapy for me, in my case. This is about my life, not convincing or agreeing with you.
Monika |
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 06:05:07
|
| Well I can assure you both, Jill and Monika, that as long as those doubts persist your pain will stay with you. That's a guarantee. So sad indeed. |
|
|
|
gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 06:45:01
|
Peter,
I don’t believe you don’t understand me at all. I am trying to dig in the emotions stored somewhere in my head. This is awful journey for me. I am reminding myself the cream of the cream of fearful and cruel situations. I start to blame lot of people near by me of my symptoms. I cry, I suffer, I shiver in bed. The more I want to face them the more I suffer, both from pain and from the bad memories. And I see no change, no improvement in spite that I experience pain movement, which I have already known -was the prove of TMS.
I don’t want to suffer twice. I don’t want you to say me ”read Sarno”, I have already caught all of his points. I just want to be sure that at the end of this dark tunnel is light for me and that this emotional embarrassment is the only way to be pain free.
|
|
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 08:31:41
|
Sometimes you can dig into your emotions yet not really feel how they contribute to the pool of unconscious rage.
Recovery is not necessarily about going back and opening old wounds and feeling those same emotions again. It's about understanding how those emotions affect you on a deeper level. It's about unlocking the true feelings hiding behind those emotions.
If "emotional embarrassment" is what you feel then I'm afraid you still may be in repression mode. You must face your deep dark feelings without fear, without guilt, without censorship.
As a goodist it is sometimes hard to accept that the root of those feelings may be anger. Even if you don't experience anger, the child inside you does. The child inside is angry at those people who caused you such horrible feelings, and angry at you for allowing those things to happen.
If you have deeply seeded psychological issues contributing to your TMS pain it is likely you need psychotherapy to recover, preferably from a Freudian psychoanalyst who is familiar with Dr. Sarno, or at least appreciative of the mindbody connection and not a "Freud basher" as so many psychology professionals are today. |
|
|
|
jilly_girl
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 08:47:51
|
I wouldnt pay 10 cents to see a Freudian psychologist. I did that years ago, when i suffered severe OCD, only to be told "its your parents fault". Just how it was their fault was never made clear to me! I do not believe my pain is due to my being mad at my Mommy and Daddy. Sometimes childhood issues do need to be addressed, but it can be taken to an absurd point. And Peter, your guarantee that our pain will persist is bull****. I feel so much better having said that, I did NOT repress my rage
Jill |
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 08:48:07
|
Ok, that is great you are digging into your emotions, but what else are you doing? I did this for a long time too but then I found I also had to get on with my life as much as possible. In "Healing Back Pain" Dr. Sarno states that "Perhaps the most important (but most difficult) thing that patients must do is to resume all physical activity, including the most vigorous. This means overcming the fear of bending, lifting, jogging, playing tennis or any other sport, and a hundred other common physical things." (page 79)
I am not 100% pain free myself, but I am out and moving around which took some doing but just sittng thinking about it all the time is not enough and may be counter-productive.
Please note, you may never know what the emotion or personality trait that is contributing to your pain. The main thing is to think about what may be possibly the emotion or personality trait.
It is also not wise to paint all therapists with the same brush.
Please also note, from a TMS perspective, you don't really know if you are angry at your parents or not as the real culprit is buried deep within your unconscious. Dr. Sarno writes a lot about. The thing which you are denying the most in many times the real source of the problem. Don't dismiss anything.
|
Edited by - n/a on 01/17/2006 08:53:07 |
|
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 09:27:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by jilly_girl
I wouldnt pay 10 cents to see a Freudian psychologist. I did that years ago, when i suffered severe OCD, only to be told "its your parents fault". Just how it was their fault was never made clear to me! I do not believe my pain is due to my being mad at my Mommy and Daddy. Sometimes childhood issues do need to be addressed, but it can be taken to an absurd point. And Peter, your guarantee that our pain will persist is bull****. I feel so much better having said that, I did NOT repress my rage
Jill
You base your entire opinion of Freudian psychology on one encounter? Does the thought enter your mind that maybe that particular doctor was not a good psychologist? Or that maybe now, with a new understanding of how psychology connects to your physical symptoms, your experience might be different? Or that maybe a Freudian psychologist is useless for treating TMS unless they also accept the mindbody connection?
With this attitude it is not surprising that you are unable to truly accept the TMS diagnosis. Seems to me you are very closed minded. Feel free to get angry at me for saying this, but also realize that anger is just a smokescreen serving as a further distraction from the true feelings that are buried within. |
|
|
|
jilly_girl
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 09:51:52
|
Peter in my case there is a structural problem in the area. I had a hysterectomy due to uterine prolapse and unless i want to give birth to my bladder! (sorry guys, its tough being a woman), i cant lift anything heavy (over 20 pounds!!). My pelvic floor muscles are weak. My bladder and other parts are already slightly prolapsed and unless I want more very unplesant surgery to put em back up, I can not resume normal activity.
I see little good to be done from digging around with a Freudian shrink who will no doubt find something to blame on my parents! That approach wont work with me, If it does with you, then good! My parents were not perfect parents. Neither am I.
Jill |
|
|
|
miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 12:25:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by gevorgyan
I must use my mind to battle with my mind. This is craziness, this is dark zone. The unconscious mind is storing something – the more I dig, the more I tremble at the morning.
I want to know what will be at the end of this therapy for me, in my case. This is about my life, not convincing or agreeing with you.
Monika
Monika- Forget about searching for the end and stay dedicated to the process. Just keep at it and continue to dig and push right smack into the fear. This is what your mind is trying to distract you from. Be aware that if your symptoms increase that you are getting closer to the emotion. You will discover the truth in good time. Get help if you feel you are getting stuck. |
|
|
|
miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 12:26:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by gevorgyan
I must use my mind to battle with my mind. This is craziness, this is dark zone. The unconscious mind is storing something – the more I dig, the more I tremble at the morning.
I want to know what will be at the end of this therapy for me, in my case. This is about my life, not convincing or agreeing with you.
Monika
Monika- Forget about searching for the end and stay dedicated to the process. Just keep at it and continue to dig and push right smack into the fear. This is what your mind is trying to distract you from. Be aware that if your symptoms increase that you are getting closer to the emotion. You will discover the truth in good time. Get help if you feel you are getting stuck. |
|
|
|
samthefish
23 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 13:45:42
|
I kind of hesitate to jump in this discussion at this point but here goes.
I think a very useful purpose of the forum is in having it address doubts that folks have that are impeding progress in accepting a TMS diagnosis. Dr. Sarno says that people must find the diagnosis logical and cosistent, and using this forum has been helpful to me in that regard, mostly by showing that there are other folks with similar symptoms that have been helped by this approach. My take on scientific theories is that they aren't true or false, only useful or not: Einstien may have proven Newtonian physics to be wrong but for someone with my math skills Newtonian physics is much more useful. Even the best, most consistent scientific theory could be proved false by future data we don't know about yet. The real mark (in my mind) about a good theory is that it make specific assertions about "the way things are" that gives you practical and effective tools with which to solve a problem. Sarno's theory for me has been extremely helpful in that regard.
Here's some of the datapoints that for me have made TMS a logical diagnosis:
- extensive medical workups failed to find anything significant other than a minor narrowing inbetween vertebre in my neck
- my neck, back pain started at a very stressful time in my life with tremendous amount of change
- my pain is worse in times of high stress
- My wife (a physical therapist) confirmed that in her experience bulging discs had no correlation to the existance or location of pain
- my pain is invariably better when I take extended 10 day hikes laden with a heavy backpack - if it were a structural problem why on earth would that make it feel better?
- I felt better from reading the book
- other people with similar personality types (like on this boards) also have similar symptoms
- my pain almost always gets better when I take the time to think about emotional things
I don't think we can discount other theories offhand. Let's assume every word Sarno wrote is absolutely 100% true. It wouldn't be surprising for other approaches that share some of Sarno's approaches (like reverse therapy) to be somewhat effective.
SamTheFish |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Interesting article uk reverse therapy
