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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2005 : 08:47:57
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Thanks Kajsa for the explanations of Reverse therapy. I now have a friend who read the site, had one of those 'this is IT' moments, and is totally psyched to do it. There ia a Reverse practitioner here in Canada (Hamilton, Ont) and a Merkel version of it in Victoria BC.
OK. Let me know how your friend gets on.
RT is hard work (just like Sarno) - but I think it really can help you to get rid of the fear of the symptoms.
Kajsa |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2005 : 17:45:16
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quote:
PeterW, from your posts it seems like you are trying to argue that Dr. Sarno's method will not work for CFS. It is the correct diagnosis but as with these other modalities, it takes time and will only work if the patient accepts the diagnosis.
(from yowire)
quote:
One other thing you might want to consider is the possibility that your doubts that CFS is 100% psychological could be a contributing factor to the failure to achieve full recovery.
(johnnyg)
These were my thoughts, too, when reading the earlier posts.
quote:
Then I went to see a naturopathic physician who switched me to the blood type diet - almost no sugar - no carbs. My symptoms stopped immediately. It was incredible. I now think this could be a very very powerful placebo. I have spoken to sarno about this and he believes that diet acts very effectively as a placebo.
(Suz)
I also had chronic fatigue. It started around the same time as my RSI (?14 years ago?), but slowly improved after a few years with vitamin supplements and eventually cured (long before I’d heard of Sarno).
I agree about diet acting as a placebo. Pre-Sarno I was a fanatic about certain foods / lack of foods causing illness. But alarm bells were starting to go off as my diet became more and more restricted… Why hadn’t I had these symptoms before when I’d been eating these foods for years? I explained the CFS to myself by the fact that I’d stopped eating meat a year beforehand. But other “food allergies” didn’t make sense.
Hilary N |
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yowire
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2005 : 19:24:51
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From PeterW:
quote:
It's got to wreak havoc with our subconcious minds when we're fed all the 'strive and achieve and be this way' messages on top of 'here's 1001 ways your health and life can go terribly wrong' messages on top of 'you are fragile' messages and beliefs.
Hi PeterW,
I think you are right on target with your comments. This combination has got to cause some serious internal anger.
Also, I share your frustration over the feeling of low self esteem and sense of lost years due to CFS. I try not to look at those times as lost years anymore, but it is difficult. Instead, I have examined those years and have learned that I can find blessings. Overall, I believe I became a better person. I stopped taking things for granted. I vowed at the time that I would fix some family relationships I had fouled and I did. I rekindled some old friendships which I would not have hadn't I begun to long to do so when I was sick. I remembered interests and hobbies that I had forgotten that came to me again due to my longings when I was sick. I also developed my artistic talents. When I got better, I pursued these interests which I probably would not have done otherwise. Because I pursued these interests, I later made friendships that have been important to me. I could give many more examples. Because of the introspection I had done when I was sick, I took a path in life later that led to many wonders and blessings that I believe I would not have experienced otherwise.
Truly, when I look back, these really weren't wasted years. In fact, even before I got sick, I may have been on a path to some lost years anyway. I know we would like to believe that hadn't we become sick life would have been nearly perfect, but this is certainly far from the truth.
Peter, I believe if you examine those years carefully you will also find many blessings. Yes, they were dark years but there was light in them also.
Yowire
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2005 : 10:50:40
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Hi Yowire - Thanks for your kind thoughts, they really speak to me. I too have done a lot of reflection on those 'lost' years and most of the time am able to see the many positives that came out of them. I'm sure I became a better person, and as I recovered developed new creative talents (in my case musical and botanical) and headed on a life course much more appropriate for someone of my temperment. Though frequently my frustrations do well up from somewhere within, call it the unconcious mind, the inner child, the ego, whatever, and I start thinking of how much I should have/could have accomplished and that I'd be way more 'successful' now if it CFS hadn't happened. Of course this is all based upon my own deeply entrenched concepts of what is supposed to be normal and desirable in our culture and it all feeds the self esteem issues. I have learned that if I can let go of that belief system I'm much happier. And since discovering Sarno, when the anger and negativite emotions do arise I deliberately choose to air them and examine them instead of just burying them. It's a constant struggle though. The truth is, if I hadn't developed CFS and all this other stuff, and hadn't done all the personal work over the years, I'd no doubt be even more a prisoner of muddled and toxic belief systems and utterly miserable.
So yes, no question there have been many blessings too. |
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Buterfli
12 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 21:42:15
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| Peter, what were/are your symptoms? |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2005 : 09:03:54
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Another question on this theme.
I have had a lot of success with my fibromyalgia - treating it as TMS.
My pain is not often a problem for me today. My fear is gone.
My fear for fatigue is not gone! Simply because it still is a symptom that I can not controle - though I for a long time treated it like
TMS. I think I pretty well grasp the idea of TMS - but CFS is a hard
think to beat for me obviously.. Sometimes a lose my hope. Will I ever
get rid of this ****!
I know that impatiance is very bad for the process - but it is impossible to not be disapointed sometimes - after so many years of struggle. I have benefitted from Reverse Therapy - but it was only possible for me to go to London twice. It is to expensive for me to travel from Denmark to London AND then pay the high price aswell for the therapy.
I have noticed a pattern though. I feel much better when I work and live a regular life (though I do not like my job so much). It´s better
for me to work than travel and do things that I enjoy.
Why ??
Is it because I do not have time to think about my symptoms so much.
It is very frustrating to get symptoms when you are supposed to have "a nice time" !!
And another thing is that I always have less fatigue in the evenings?
Anyone with similar experinces?
Kajsa |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2005 : 10:37:55
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"I have noticed a pattern though. I feel much better when I work and live a regular life (though I do not like my job so much). It´s better
for me to work than travel and do things that I enjoy.
Why ?? Is it because I do not have time to think about my symptoms so much. It is very frustrating to get symptoms when you are supposed to have "a nice time" !! And another thing is that I always have less fatigue in the evenings?
Anyone with similar experinces?"
Absolutely, this is very common. When I'm trying to relax or supposed to be relaxing, I often experience extreme anxiety or the pain might come back. It is usually because your guard is down and the emotions are threatening to surface. At this time, your brain senses the need for pain or anxiety as a distraction. Every time we went on a vacation, my wife would get a migraine.
Pay attention to how you are breathing when your symptoms bother you. You may find that your breathing is shallow or that you hold breath in. What I do is regulate my breathing, steadily and somewhat deeply in and out through the nose using your diaphragm (not chest). After while you can beging to feel the breath throughout your body. I have a therapist who is helping me with this through biofeedback. He believes in Sarno, but the biofeedback lets you know how to get into relaxed states anytime you desire. YOu'd be surprised what this does to prevent anxiety and other symptoms from ocurring. |
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davebhoy
United Kingdom
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 11:16:55
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with regard to the post above i get exactly the same problem either in the evening when i sit down in front of the tv to "relax" or when i actively try relaxation tehniques. my body doesnt seem to like it at all, i get headaches, light-headed and dizzy and feel tired and very strange. this can carry on for a day but has continued for a week.
does anyone have any ideas how this can be helped - its doing my head in as i seem to be running on adrenalin at the moment and darent slow down so my body can get some rest.
i have suffered from cfs for 9 years july just passed. i have tried many different therapies and am now seeing the third mind/body expert.
obviously i see there is definitely something in the mind/body connection but i think people who have never had cfs, and even those who have, struggle to really grasp what each individuals needs.
for me reverse therapy with john eaton was a pretty depressing experience. i spent a lot of money and valuable energy seeing him but felt bullied and that it was my fault that it didnt work. the line he took was that if it didnt work it wasnt a fault with his treatment it was the patients fault for not doing it "properly." this was absolute rubbish as i followed his protocol to the letter but saw only small improvements. there have subsequently been a few others like me who have seen john eaton and had similar experiences, and have also had similar reason to question the success rates he quotes.
i didnt have much better luck with his partner david mickel. i heard better stories from people who had seen him but when i contacted him to point out the cost in money and more importantly energy that seeing his partner involved he offered to send me to a therpaist local to me, who agreed to only a very small reduction in fees. he then offered treatment by email which six months and many emails later has failed to materialise.
overall i would advise anyone strongly against going to a rt therapist. i had a bad feeling about it quite early on and everything subsequently proved me right. having said that if it works for you then all well and good. i just wouldnt recommend it.
i do believe that rt is on the right road, although only a very small way along it. i have also seen another man who is fully recovered from cfs having treated himself with nlp and self-hypnosis. he took me further along the road to recovery, but i also became aware with him that while his thoery very much made sense to me, his methods were not right in "treating" me.
i am now seeing someone else who uses nlp but in a far more intense way than i have used before and i am gettign very good results.
i agree that cfs is a mind/body thing - much of what i have read on this particular thread rings very true to me. i also believe that anyone can recover but they need someone to help them who will help them believe recovery is completely possible, and understand that they have different needs to other cfs sufferers. the belief that a full recovery is not only a possibility but a likelihood is very important and if we do not ome to that conclusion then things are very difficult
i have ordered dr sarno's book from amazon and am really looking forward to reading it. the more information and the more debate we have on this the better. the m.e./cfs/fibro community are on the whole very sceptical about this. a lot of people jump down yout throat as soon as you make any mention of a mind/body connection because they see it as people saying its a psychosomatic condition, all in their minds.
personally i couldnt give a flying one what is the cause as long as i can get a full recovery, but to many thats the worst thing you could say.
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 12:12:58
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"i am now seeing someone else who uses nlp but in a far more intense way than i have used before and i am gettign very good results."
Could you please explain this a little bit more?
/Kajsa
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davebhoy
United Kingdom
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 18:22:33
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i am not sure i am the right person to tell you exactly what nlp is.
the theory behind the process he teaches is that cfs is a series of thoughts and behaviours that we hold as beliefs, but we have come to believe them to be set in stone. cfs is a series of learned behaviours and thoughts and beliefs and the only way to change these is to catch, challenge and then change them every time we do them. it is these destructive patterns and thoughts that are the cornerstones of cfs and because we do them so frequently, as often as every couple of seconds, i have to listen in on my thoughts and watch my behaviours all the time and act to stop and change them every time. unless you do it every time it doesnt really work.
the process does involve a big change in the way you look at cfs. you have to come to the conclusion that cfs is not really an ilness but something we learn to do and something we tell our bodies we have and our bodies respond appropriately. i have been doing the process for some weeks now and have only really accepted this fully this week. it does feel a bit strange, but its absolutely essential ot the reovery process.
when i said you have to do nlp in a more intense way what i meant was that this particular process can involve you catching your thoughts and challenging them virtually every minute of every day, at least in the first few days. and you have to be vigilant os if you let it slip then you can go bak to how you were. but i am trying to change beliefs and behaviours that have been entrenched over nine years so it was never going to be easy. and when i did it for a few days i got more and more energy to do it.
i hope this makes sense. its by no means the full story and doesnt explain nlp really, but its 1.20 am and i have just got in from a gig, which i guess shows you that something is working.
if you want i can go into more detail. |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 07:54:37
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”if you want i can go into more detail.”
Yes I find it interesting. It reminds me a of both Sarno and RT.
(I saw John Eaton only twice - so if he really is good it´s hard for me to judge.
Some people have been helped from RT obviously .. There are a British
sportswoman - I think she is a canoeist, that describe the journey with RT.
She was cured. After my appointment with John Eaton - my symptoms really eased for
some weeks. But they keep coming back to often and I think the method is sometimes very hard to grasp. I can not afford to go to London again.
I think his theory - about hypothalamus- can be correct though.
(What I didn’t like about John Eaton was that he didn´t give me a written receipt. At least in Denmark that is a bad sign - not professional - and I was silly who didn’t confront him about that - because it bugged me).
When you describe NLP it sounds worth looking at. And I am quite sure that CFS is routed
In your mind (and the mind actually makes physical changes in your body).
CFA is a kind of mystery really! So unpredictable.
I am often very sensitive to alcohol - but I went to San Diego and had a huge jetlag and drank
a lot of wine and felt just so energetic… up and about and able to walk forever!
Then you can say ”Ok - you had a nice time and enjoyed yourself and so your symptoms eased”. But the next time I can go to Paris with nice people and drink wine and be totally exhausted.. So it is not an easy puzzle.
I wish the solution was going to big cities and drink wine - but life is never that easy, is it.
If you feel ok after your night gig - it would be nice to hear some more.
Are you seeing any real results?
Kajsa
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davebhoy
United Kingdom
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 10:48:10
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yes i am fine after last night. i didnt sleep well but that tends to be the case when i have a lot of stimulation during the evening. however after getting to sleep at about two and waking at about eight with broken sleep in between i feel ok today.
the results are pretty enouraging. the crushing fatugue i experienced before is nearly gone and all i seem to be left with is quite a bad aching all over, particularly in the arms and legs. i am confident this will go. the brainfog is almost entirely gone, the anxiety is now more tangible rather than being something that was there and i couldnt quite understand what it was, so it means i can now do somehting about it.
in my case the man i work with thinks that cfs is not an ilness in the traditional sense but a whole load of learned behaviours. i had a long period of strees before "i got m.e." whereby i experienced a whole load of symptoms and a supressed immune system. when i did get a common or garden flu my body was so beat up from all the stress it took a long while to recover and when it took a while i started to think there must be something really wrong. i was looking for an answer while the stress continued to cause me symptoms. when they simply continued and got worse i was sure that something was really badly wrong and after looking around became certain that i had m.e. after all i had all the symptoms. for nine years i did all the research that we all do, books, internet, forums, and the more i looked the more i became eertain that all the sensations i was feeling in my body were caused by m.e. i forgot what it was like to feel "normal" and put everything down to m.e. i think my mindbody got so used to being told that "oh i have brain fog, i still have m.e." that it bought into the thing entirely and started behaving accordingly - sending me symptoms to protet me from this ilness i was so sure i had.
at the same time the patterns that i was running during the time leading up to when i "got m.e." continued and got worse. my fear of attack from friends and colleagues got worse, my self-esteem plummeted and my outlook on the future became more and more catastrophic. i guess the fact that i was spending more and more time on my own (to protect myself from attack) that i felt like half the person i had been before (who wasnt all that great in the first place) and that i was being told that it was virtually unknown for anyone to make a full reovery from cfs all entrenched these beliefs. as these beliefs became solid fact in my mind so my mindbody reacted accordingly and sent me more stuff to protect me.
the process i use now looks at all that and says, right, you have to stop all those destructive behaviours and thoughts and change them around to positive ones. tell the mindbody that the reason for all the symptoms that i have believed are cfs is actually just the mindbody reacting to what its being told. cfs is like great big pit of sh!t that we have fallen into and every time we reinforce our negative thoughts and beliefs we stay deep in there. if we keep up the stressful thoughts, keep putting ourselves in situaions we see as stressful then the body reacts accordingly, the immune system is alerted, and we get the symptoms we know and dont love.
in my case it became clear there were situations in my life that i had to address but also thoughts and beliefs outside the whole "i've got cfs" thing that needed to be looked at. nlp is great at helping stuff like social anxiety, low self-esteem, anxieties. you have to ccatch eah negative thought (they call tehm bahviours) challenge it exactly as it happens and reframe it in a positive light, in a way that will give you a life you love. as i said before, this can mean doing it every minute sometimes and it can be wearing at first but i could see the benefits for me very quickly. you do need to find someone who can teah you how to do it properly - if you dont do it properly you wont see the benefits and if you dont see the benefits you will beome discouraged and the whole thing wont work.
i think it works on the principle that in thought processes we fire neurons from parts of our consious brain to other parts that then process these and act accordingly. if the thought occurs frequently enough it becomes a belief and the process becomes ingrained in our brains, and can happen automatically - the brainand the the body does its job wihtout needing to be prompted by the conscious mind beause the mechanism is already there. to change the belief you have to catch the neuron as early as possible and try to "dry up" the path it has always taken by ccathing it again and again and making a new path for it. if you do it early enough and often enough eventually the old path dies out and a new one develops. i have heard that it takes 21 days to change a belief and 63 days to really entrencch it but i am not sure that this was in regard to nlp and i may be wrong
please dont quote me on what i have said about nlp. this what i have picked up on it in my short time using it and it may be that what i know is only a tiny part of a larger picture. it may be worng. but it does seem to be working for me.
i know i havent "got" m.e. anymore. i do still do some of the behaviours and i have to keep watchful and keep changing anything destructive so as to stay out of the "sh!t" i think anything learned over nine years will take some time to unlearn, but i am really confident that the life i have will be far happier than the one i had before i "got m.e."
where this all fits in with sarno's stuff i am not entirely sure as i havent read his book, but from what i have seen it does seem to tie in with it in many ways.
what i would say is that the "traditional" and especially the "alternative" schools of thought on cfs hate these theories. i think traditional medecine has always seen this more as a psychological than a physiologial disorder but the whole mindbody thing seems to leave them cold. the alternative people really dont like it at all. you will often hear people say that this suggests that cfs is "all in the mind." i have had quite a few arguments with people on the immunesupport . com forum about this and it is a very sensitive topic for many people. the thought that it might be psychosomatic in any way is heresy to them and anyone who suggests a mindbody connection is shot down in pretty much the same way as the conventional medecine people we have grown to hate. i have now given up trying to talk to these people but maybe when i can go back to them completely and entirely free of any pain or fatigue i'll give it a go. |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 00:25:22
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Thank you for taking the time to explain NLP!
It makes a lot of sense and Yes - Sarno fits in quite well (and so do RT
in a way - don’t you think that, even though the method wasn’t beneficial
for you..).
If you read Yowires posts - I think you recognise a lot of what you have explained
about how to view CFS.
I have had a lot of success treating my fibromyalgia like TMS but treating
fatigue is so much harder. I need more tools than Sarno gives me because
I have had limited success - though I think I
grasp the “thinking” of TMS pretty well. I am also totally convinced that CFS is
psychological . I have known that for years now but it hasn’t helped me
getting over it.
I have good periods and have never really been bedridden (excepts for
a few days now and then). I have FORCED myself to continue to work even if
It has been enormously hard sometimes. I am not happy about my work (I am a
librarian - but also work as a freelance journalist and have published books for children)
But I think it has been crucial for my “inner frame” to continue working - I would
just have gone deeper and deeper into sickness without it.
Actually -days when I live a“pretty busy” ,and somehow ,boring life (regular)
-is best for my fatigue. I guess that my “negative thoughts” have less space those days.
I think that NLP sounds like the kind of quite “aggressive method” that you need to
conquer the fatigue. Do you think that you can learn it from a book? Do you have to see
a therapist?
When I look up NLP in Denmark (on the webb) I meet a lot of young sporty therapists (only men) who
writes that they are “life coaches” - “Do you want to be more successful?” Do you want to earn more money?
Do you want to be better at sports? Etc “
Wouldn’t like to contact anyone of those.
Good luck with your recovery and please continue to write about your progress.
Kajsa |
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davebhoy
United Kingdom
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 02:59:15
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i would say that fatigue is less the problem now that the aches and pains. i am still having problems relaxing and sleeping soundly but i think this is improving.
i would say that what i dont think what i am having is typical nlp, i think he has tailored it specifically to cfs sufferers. and i do thingk that you need to see someone - it needs tweaks and changes to make it specific to your needs and is an ongoing process which grows as you progress. but he has had brilliant results and has many people in full recovery, or rather not "doing" cfs as he would say anymore.
he is based in london but he is very expensive - about 200 euros an hour and i have had quite a few sessions already. but everyone who does the process seems to get great benefits.
i can get some details for you if oyu want. i know that he has trained some people up in this some there may be someone closer to you. i would also look at an article published by a dutch therpaist called joop de vette who seems to have come to the same theory and has treated and "cured" several patients using nlp. |
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davebhoy
United Kingdom
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 03:07:07
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i would add that rt does work for some people. if you go to immunesupport . com there is a lady there who's boyfriend has made a full recovery using rt.
avoid the doubters there - there are a lot of people who hate rt and anything like it. but its very good to read about people who have made it, there testimnonies are extremely important in offering us hope that there is a way out. we need that for our recovery |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 03:34:53
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"he has had brilliant results and has many people in full recovery, or rather not "doing" cfs as he would say anymore."
How do you know about the brilliant results? For sure I mean.
It do sounds very interesting and totally in line with Sarno.
The weakness with Sarno - as I see it - is that he leaves you without a really good method.
It´s not enough. (For a lot of people it is enough! Especially for those with pain I think - because that is what Sarno mostly writes about.) But I have to combine it with other methods - that’s for sure.
I wrote a personal e-mail to you and asked about some information about you therapist.
Thought it might be of less interest for the forum. Just want to say that you of course can answer
here - if you prefer that. (And take your time - I am not in a rush)
I think HOPE is crucial. You write about that. Actually I have been symptom free a couple of days now because
I believe that “ a cure” is possible.
I carefully avoid to read those CFS forum who only concentrate on terrible symptoms and miserable lives…
/Kajsa
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davebhoy
United Kingdom
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 04:01:56
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he has testemonials that i believe are true and i also read an unsolicited post on another website that was from a lady who had seen a therapist trained in his technique who was completely recovered.
the real belief that it works comes from the results, i can see real improvements and it makes me thing that the whole thing is true.
sounds to me ompletely correct what you were saying about tms and needing a good method. what we have learned to do is so deeply entrenched that we need something pretty harsh to change our thoughts and behaviours. its almost like we have to make a big change in what we believe.
i didnt receive an email from you - try me again. i am quite happy to speak to you by email or here.
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n/a
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CFS /ME
