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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2005 : 06:41:20
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Question from a friend of mine.
Has anyone here on the forum healed from Cfs "only" -not pain (cronic
fatigue syndrome)using Sarno?
Kajsa |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 08:26:28
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Dr. Sarno mentions Chronic Fatigue Syndrome in his book The MindBody Prescription on pages 122-124. He lists it as a TMS equivalent, that is it serves the same function as TMS. He states that "When the patients confronts the unconscious feelings responsible for their symptoms, the symptoms disappear." (page 124)
Here is chapter 21 from Marc Sopher's book: "To Be or Not To Be... Pain-Free"
Chapter 21
CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME
This will be another short chapter. Chronic fatigue syndrome
(CFS) has much in common with all of the other manifestations of
The Mindbody Syndrome, like FMS, low back pain, neck and
shoulder pain, etc. In this case the persistent unpleasant symptom is
fatigue, often to the point of disability. Nothing is found on
comprehensive medical evaluation, though people often have
associated mood disorders. A joint commission of three of Britain’s
Royal Medical Colleges concluded, after a comprehensive study a
few years ago, that CFS was probably psychologically induced. It is
clearly another manifestation of TMS, most likely initiated by
dysfunctional activity in the neuroendocrine system. Therefore, one
can anticipate resolution of symptoms by treating it the same way as
one treats TMS. Again, it will be very hard work, for many of the
same reasons that treating FMS can be challenging.
In a personal correspondence, Dr. Sarno wrote that a group of
young men and women had read one of his books, decided that the
psychology of CFS was similar to that of TMS, and got better.
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 23:52:09
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Thank you!
I will pass that by.
There are not many people on this board with CFS though.
Kajsa |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 09:12:54
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| There are probably a lot of people on the board who have or have had some manifestation of CFS but don't recognize it as such or haven't been "diagnosed". When my TMS was at it's worst, I believe I had a type of CFS, or possibly even fibro. The hallmark of cfs is an exhaustion of adrenalin in the body. The response to stress (holding in repressed emotinos) causes our adrenaline to dissipate too soon, resulting in exhaustion. That's why i think benzo-diazapines work well for this. It calmes the fight or flight response and lets you use your adrenaline normally. |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 21:05:01
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Kajsa - Here's something I wrote up awhile ago in response to some previous posts on this board about CFS that I thought were somewhat simplistic. At the time I decided not to post as I wasn't sure how it would be received on this TMS board and it also ended out being way longer than I first intended. But after a few revisions I've decided to share now. It's excessively long and not for those who want these things kept short and simple. But as Art just said on another thread "This stuff is complicated". And I really want to speak my truth and what I've come to understand about CFS. Maybe it can help your friend or someone else out there, or help somebody understand this condition better.
Best wishes, Peter
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I can speak from experience on this one - I came down with CFS (or ME/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis in the UK) 16 years ago and am now almost fully recovered. I recovered before discovering Sarno and would in all honesty say that there's a lot of potential use for his approach in healing CFS, especially for those who are functioning reasonably well or working at least part time and have covered some of the other treatment basics. But I would not assume his conclusions about CFS to be gospel.
I could go for days on what I know about CFS from years of studying research, books and articles, but most importantly from the day to day living it experiences of myself and scores of others who have suffered from this wretched and demoralizing condition, and also from my own and others' recovery experiences. And with the risk of ruffling a few feathers I'll just be honest - all too often on this board I see folks whose knowledge of CFS is limited to quoting Sarno making a whole lot of assumptions, and with all due respect their good intentions and to the man and his many revolutionary insights, there are many other dedicated and insightful doctors out there who have spent far more time studying this specific condition than he has. That's not to say that he doesn't have something to offer - he definately does. It's just that, like almost everyone else on this planet who believes he's got CFS all figured out, he really doesn't - there's a bunch of stuff that he hasn't quite factored in. Everyone, including the good guys like Sarno and the folks on this board, see the world through the filters of their own biases.
From what I know about CFS (which I can humbly say is quite a lot) and for whatever it's worth, here are a bunch of my own biases: For starters, the basic TMS and the CFS personality profiles are pretty much the same. But I'm not so sure CFS just another TMS equivalent, at least by the TMS definition I understand. But it is most definately a stress induced illness with a major emotional component, keeping in mind the original definition of stress.
Stress is "the non-specific response of the body to any demand". Hans Selye, MD
CFS probably best understood simply as a disorder of stress modulation. Stress of all kinds and any kind triggers symptoms. Once it has established it's grip any stress, physical, mental or emotional, will exacerbate the condition. Rest will alleviate symptoms. What triggers it in the first place? - In a word stress (or trauma). Either acute or long term unremitting stress that overwhelms the body's ability to adapt and respond. Physical, mental, emotional, or more likely all three (more on this in a moment). All systems are affected, but I agree with Dr. Sopher that it is rooted in the neuroendocrine system. It is the ultimate brain/body disfunctional meltdown, caused by the accumulated and multiple stresses of 20th (now 21st) Century living - high pressure, fast paced lifestyles, junk food diets, environmental toxins, traumas, accidents, and the enormous expectations that we and our culture impose upon ourselves to excel through it all. That last one is a biggie but it's not necessarily the whole story.
I think that most folks with this condition likely harbour a reservoir of repressed emotions and perfectionistic traits (I sure did and am still working on them). But for the severly afflicted I would really steer clear of encouraging a CFS patient to 'return to normal activity' until there's a marked improvement in the condition. Believe me, every CFS patient has grown exasperated by their exhaustion at some point, and tried to force themselves back to activities they want to do or need to do. This is disastrous when overdone and can precipitate major relaspses that last months or years. Then talk about frustration and repressed emotions - it gets to the point where life is reduced to months or years of laying around vegetating. Any expenditure of energy of any kind, fixing a meal, a trip to the corner store, even a visit from someone that should give you energy or an activity that you'd normally love to do, just drains the energy account even further. In this condition really hard personal and emotional work is impossible. Really, anything of substance is impossible. Suicides in this state are not uncommon. I know I experience a tremendous amount of internal sadness and even horror when I think back to the time when I was laid out, all the wasted years in the prime of my life (late 20's, early 30's), and the struggles of just trying to live and get by in this condition day to day.
Badly afflicted CFS patients can be so severe that it's too much to get up for 2 minutes and throw together some food (and I've been there). If someone went to them with a Sarno book and said "look read this, it's so simple, you just have to get up and ignore the fatigue" they'd probably get the book thrown back at them. And quite frankly, unless they'd been there themselves, they'd deserve it for being so presumptuous even though they think they're trying to help.
Dr. Gerald Poesnecker, who was of Sarno's generation and also posessed his 'thinking outside the box' brilliance (and who passed away a couple years ago), spent decades specializing in treating CFS out of a Pennsylvania clinic and always used the Hans Seyle stress model. He always said that one must always consider the physical, mental and the emotional causes of this condition. Most interestingly, based on years of closely working with CFS patients, he developed an equation: Three units physical stress (anything from environmental toxins to physical injuries to exercise) equals two units mental stress (any mental or concentrated brain work) equals one unit emotional stress (no need to elaborate on that one to this group!) What this basically means is that any serious emotional stress is three times as taxing to the body's adaptation system as a typical physical stressor. It's just an approximation but helps put the priorities into perspective. He believed that for most people with CFS, the emotional stresses were a bigger burden than the physical factors, but that does not mean the physical factors are irrelevant. In fact he always attacked the physical aspects first as that was necessary to get the recovery rolling, particularly with serious cases.
So Dr. Poesnecker was in sort of agreement with Sarno, in that emotional factors were an overlooked and crucial factor to consider. But his model was different, as he saw a total breakdown of the body's stress adaption mechanism from multiple factors, causing multiple body breakdowns in every system. And from years of personal experience and lots of reflection, I have to agree with him. Sarno has really helped clarify and expand upon the emotional component for me and I'm really grateful for that. But as for clarifying the actual mechanisms involved, no one really knows for sure but in my opinion Poesnecker and others are probably a lot closer than Sarno is. At least with this condition.
In my case, along with the predisposing emotional stressors and repression, I also had documented heavy metal poisoning (mercury) and plastic poisoning from years of being stupid enough to brew beer in a non food grade plastic bucket. This was all documented from MD prescribed blood and urine work. Add to that years of antibiotic use, years of working in an office building with the (documented) worst air quality in the city, years of lousy junk food diets and too much alcohol, then a surgery, and the total load became too much. Same as for the Gulf War veterans who came down with Gulf War Syndrome (very similar to CFS). Obviously they were exposed to considerable emotional stresses. But after all their multiple vaccinations and exposures to depleted uranium, blown up chemical weapons (Saddam still had them in THAT war) and assorted other toxic brews, anybody who claims their symptoms were purely and only psychological in origin really must see the world through one heavy duty set of filters.
It's myth that there's no test or distinguishing markers for CFS. There actually are simple definitive tests involving blood pressure modulation when moving from prone to standing. To this day most doctors have no clue on this. CFS patients' blood pressure falls (rather than rises) when the patient stands up. The severity of the drop is barometer for the severity of the condition. The aforementioned Dr. Poesnecker was diagnosing people in the 1950's this way with what he then called 'Adrenal Syndrome'. Most CFS patients have low blood pressure to start with, low body temperature, and also reactive hypoglycemia and do far better when simple carbohydrates - sugars etc - are avoided. Our bodies were never designed by evolution to take the amounts of simple sugars we injest in Western Cultures. There's just no getting around the fact that much of that mental fog dissipates when one eliminates this stress from the diet, or eliminates common food allergens. And with hypoglycemia, the symptoms melt away when you simply eat frequently. And long term specific dietary care along these lines can work wonders. These are all symptoms of poorly modulated stress response, as the adrenals, hypothalamus, nervous system et al aren't able to do their work keeping blood sugar and blood pressure levels normal.
I improved vastly when my endocrine system was balanced out. Thorough (and I mean thorough) adrenal and thyroid testing is really helpful. Free T3, T4, THS, free DHEA, even specialized saliva and urine tests. The standard lab tests will likely just turn up low normal. For me, dessicated thyroid, low dose DHEA and adaptogenic herbs all made an amazing and perceptible difference, immediately. All helped slide the stress response system towards normality.
There is so much I could get into here, but since this is a TMS board, I'll add that hard, honest personal and emotional work is essential for full recovery. You'll only get so far doing all the physical things that work towards balancing the stressed out system if one is still living in a state of emotional chaos or repression. But it's also true that you can tackle the hard emotional issues so much better when some physical vitality has been restored so that the brain and body can handle what comes up.
So after all that, and sorry to go on at length, I would greatly encourage your friend to read Sarno, especially the personality sections. They really apply. As far as an actual mindbody approach to follow, I would recommend Dr. Selfridge's ' Freedom from Fibromyalgia' over Sarno for badly affected CFS patients. As fibro often overlaps with CFS it's more tuned to their particular condition and needs. Sarno should work for those who are up and about and funtioning pretty normally except for recurring fatigue.
The TMS/highly sensitive personality type is a big predisposing factor in this illness, and emotional stresses and suppression no doubt play a significant role for most and could be the main culprit for many. However, assuming that ALL CFS is 100% emotionally induced TMS, 100% of the time, for 100% of the patients is a rather simplistic and presumpuous mistake. Encouraging normal activity for these patients when their bodies are saying NO is definately not the thing to do.
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 02:48:57
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Thank you ever so much!
That was long and very well written (and informative).
Oh - I would like to give you an loong well written
Danish answer. But I have to write a shorter one in English,
of course..
I will certainly hand this over to my friend. I myself suffer from
“fibromyalgia” and as the pain subsided (thanks to Sarno) the fatigue got more persist.
(But I am now working quite successfully with the fatigue aswell).
My friend though, thinks that CFS is something different (she never had any pain)
I think that there are quite a lot of links between those illnesses.
And I have never been so bad as many of the CFS suffers have -been bedridden etc.
But I have my days when my energy is absolutely zero - it´s something completely
Different from being tired (Actually I enjoy being “normally tired” - that is a relaxing
experience if you compare it to fatigue).
I will print out your post and read it carefully again.
I have had some success with “reverse therapy” http://www.reverse-therapy.com/
Not a magic cure (nothing is - Sarno isn´t) but a way to get tools
to do the HARD WORK that changing patterns and emotions are.
All the best!
Kajsa
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 02:52:11
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"For me, dessicated thyroid, low dose DHEA and adaptogenic herbs all made an amazing and perceptible difference, immediately."
I also wonder. Did you get this from a doctor? What is adaptogenic herbs?
Kajsa |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 07:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajsa
Not a magic cure (nothing is - Sarno isn´t)
In fact, Dr Sarno is a man of science and he does not believe in magic or miracles. His work is based on observing and diagnosing over 10,000 patients over 2 decades with a high success rate- higher than any other doctor using other treatment modalities for the same kind of symptoms. His work is sound clincal practice based on established scientific prinicples. Dr. Sarno may be attacked on many fronts, but it will be hard to attack his science and success rate. |
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 22:34:19
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Kajsa,
Earlier this year, I think you said that you had recovered from your fibromyalgia pain and were 50% recovered from CFS. Are you feeling much better now that you have had reverse therapy? Have you completed the therapy?
Jim |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 03:13:00
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“Recover” is perhaps not the word…
I can handle it it very well. The pain have subsided a lot
and doesn´t frighten me. I sometimes have some burning pain
and tingling etc. And I feel that my blood circulation isn’t very good.
But I seldom have pain that bothers me and many days I feel fine.
Fibromyalgia is “severe TMS” and I think that I always have “to deal with it”
- but the pin is not a big issue for me any more. I walk and cycle and do pretty muck what I want.
I do not think I ever will be able to ex. run long distance - but I do not care.
I have had 2 sessions of “Reverse therapy”. For me it means taking a flight to London -
so it is quite expensive.
It is not a miracle cure but gives me tools to work with the fatigue. I need more tools
and Sarnos books is not enough. It worked with the pain but the fatigue is a harder
thing to break, absolutely. (read Peters note - it expresses it very well).
Since I began Reverse therapy I am better - but like Sarno - it takes TIME to grasp the method / way
of thinking.
I am working on it and it is hard work.
I have began to look at CFS as my “inner voice” and that really make sense. In that way I can also
look at it as something positive. If I didn’t have got the symptoms I would just continued with my life
in a way that - on a deeper level - isn’t satisfactory. This symptoms FORCES me to take action and look upon things and change patterns.
Nothing else could have made me do this things.
I have good periods as well as worse ones.
But I know - absolutely -that as long as I live a life that isn´t “good enough” I will have symptoms .
And when I have I life that is more satisfactory - I will be symptom free.
It is as easy as that. And as hard!
Kajsa
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 03:33:54
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Second thoughts.
I think "recover" is just the word (language problems...).
The word that I do not like is "cured". Because I do not think that
I ever will be cured in that sense that I ca do whatever I like
(or perhaps more correct -dislike) and not have symptoms.
I have to carefully watch my life and look after my "inner needs" if I want to stay symptom free.
In a way I guess it can be a blessing.
Not everyone have this "sensitive" body that helps you to navigate in life. And it is a thermometer That you can not manipulate.
Kajsa |
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Buterfli
12 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 08:33:07
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Hi Kajsa,
I'm curious to know in what parts of your body you felt the burning/tingling. Was it accompanied by any soreness or achiness?
B |
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elise8
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 10:53:42
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Thank you Peter for the very well written and lengthy post on CFS.
I am sure that this is what I have been dealing with for the past two years. I am also much, much better since changing my diet and taking adaptogenic herbs. The ones I find very helpful are Korean Ginsing, ashwagnadha (sp?) root and Rhodiola Rosea. When I was at my worst, I had to go on medical leave from my job. I could barely feed myself. Everything was just too taxing to my nervous system. I became exhausted when I would just try to walk to the mail box. I could not even handle my own children coming around to visit. I would just start shaking, like I had parkinson's. It was so horrible. I also later developed severe depression when before I had no history whatsoever of it. I mostly sought out natural healers as the medical establishment could not figgure out what was wrong. They would prescribe one medication after another which I could not tolerate. I became sensitive to EVERYTHING, even many foods. I was tested for metals and showed positive for high levels of mercury, cadmium and nickle. One naturopathic MD said my adrenals were totally exhausted and that every body systems was failing. Because of stress on my adrenals all the toxins were being released in to my blood stream causing autointoxication. My liver was a mess. It could not keep up with the load of toxins being released. And my adrenal system was just too taxed.
It was a long road but not I am back to work and enjoy things again. I do have relapses. One of the things I developed was Meniere's syndrome which is a group of symptoms pertaining to the inner ear. An ENT diagnosed after some testing. I kept getting severe pressure in my right ear, horrible tinnitis, vertigo, eye jerking and other vision problems, balance problems and brain fog triggered by carbohydrates, stress, elevation changes or weather changes. Now I have fewer and fewer attacks as long as I take care of myself, get enough rest and eat right and avoid stressful situations. Some on this board would say that my "Meniere's syndrome" was just a form of TMS and I very much disagree. It was definitely brought on my by my adrenal failure. Granted, stress was the big precipitator, but once my adrenals were so severely weakened there is no way I could correct this condition with Sarno's methods alone. The diet, herbs, limiting stress, etc were all critical to my recovery. I cured my back problems with Sarno's methods years ago and I give him credit for that. But with the CFS or adrenal exhaustion I believe the other components are critical. The adrenals, once they become totally exhausted must have the correct raw materials in order to heal and get strong again. Even though I am not 100% I am a so much better than I was 2 years ago and am hopeful for a full recovery in the future. While Sarnos basic theories have been very helpful in dealing with my TMS in the past, they did not work for this condition.
Thanks again, Peter, for your wonderful and helpful post.
Elise
Elise8 |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 12:41:56
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Elise--
Not to sound callous, but that information the naturopaths told you sounds like a load of nonsense. How does one determine that your "adrenals were exhausted" or that your "body systems were failing"? It is the equivalent of a Chinese natural doctor saying your "chi is depleted" or a witch doctor saying you are "possessed by evil spirits"--it's just a bunch of made up stuff to explain things people don't understand. I give the standard MDs credit, at least they said they just didn't know what was causing your problem.
Frankly, it sounds as if all of your symptoms are TMS related, not just your back problems. Why were you able to accept that the back pain was TMS, but not the fatigue, vertigo, etc? It is clear that someone that develops one TMS symptom is certainly predisposed to develop others. This isn't to say that TMS sufferers aren't entitled to get actual medical problems, but given that there seems to be no clear medical cause for the symptoms, and they are typical TMS equivalents like fatigue, depression, Meniere's, etc. it seems far more likely to be more TMS...
Again, while there is likely a role of the immune and hormonal systems in CFS, I think the "prime mover" is the brain/mind, as posited by Sarno, with the rest being secondary. Treating these other changes and looking to them as the main cause is treating the symptoms, like taking pain medications for lower back pain, and unlikely to result in real success. |
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elise8
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 13:49:47
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Drziggles,
The doctor I saw is actually an MD and a naturopath and also a licensed homeopathic doctor. He is a licensed MD who can also prescribe medicine if the need arose. Anyway I went to him on a recommendation from somebody who had been very ill and had no luck from mainstream medicine and with his help she got better. He ran a bunch of tests on me, including saliva samples which showed my DHEA level very low and my cortisol levels off the chart. He also did a 24 hour urine test that tested all the hormones and minerals in my body, not just female hormones, but adrenal hormones, minerals, kidney function, etc. Also did a heavy metals test. Based on these tests and an extensive physical exam he told me that my adrenals were burned out or exhausted and that my other organs were compromised and not functioning well, i.e. kidneys, liver, lungs, etc. I had some physical symptoms that he observed such as low blood pressure upon standing, some type of pupil test where my pupils were unequal when he shined some light on them, and also all the hair on my lower extremities, armpits, etc had just stopped growing, I had strange dark patches on my skin. My appetite was gone. My gums bled at the slightest touch and I had lost 15 pounds in 2 weeks. I was freezing cold all the time. So there were also nutritional deficiencies going on... I also developed wheezing and shortness of breath, difficulty breathing, orthopnea at nighttime.
He gave me some dessicated glandulars (possibly dessicated thyroid or adrenals, similar to what Peter mentioned), and I had some relief. I took these for a while along with rest and changing my diet radically, vegetable juicing, lots of supplements, B vitamins, etc. I had one detox treatment (homeopathic) from which I became even more ill. My body was just under too much stress to handle any detoxing at first. I was scheduled to go back to him for IV chelation for the metals and also some homeopathic treatment and some other nutritional testing, but I ran out of money so I more or less got better very, very slowly on my own experimenting with a variety of supplements and other nutritional methods while all the while reading my Sarno books, Clair Weeks books and many other recommended on this site. Many of the symptoms slowly subsided. The vertigo, extreme right ear pressure, vision problems persisted. I went to a neurologist after an MRI showed some suspicious things and the neurologist told me to go to an ENT, he thought I had Meniere's. I even told him I thought it could be stress but he said it sounded more like Meniere's. There were too many symptoms together and also the fact that it was only in one ear and that I had had surgery on that side of my face.
So to get back to your reply, I really do not think the naturopathic doctor was a witch doctor at all. He had a very good reputation of treating people with metal toxicity and adrenal problems, along with other illnesses such as allergies, immune dysfunction problems, etc. I do acknowledge that I have TMS or have had TMS in the past related to my lower back problems and some other aches and pains. This I feel was no doubt brought on by my TMS tendencies and my inability to handle stress due to overwork, not enough rest, tremendous financial difficulites, etc. It was like by body had just had "enough" and my nervous system started to shut down. Unless you have had something like this you have no idea what it is like. I can tell the difference between my TMS type pain and symptoms and this. You may not be able to relate (lucky you), but I assure you that it was more than TMS and needed more than TMS books or my acceptance of TMS. Not everything is TMS. There may be initial symptoms that are caused by TMS but can possibly develop into psysiologic conditions, I do not know for sure. I just know that I am so much better now as a result of lifestyle changes and being able to control my emotions somewhat better so stress does not totally do me in.. Dr. Sarno's books were a life saver during my back problem days and have helped with other symptoms in the past, but they just did not help me with this other monster...
Elise
Elise8 |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 06:20:51
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Hmmm
Its hard to know. What is the hen and what is the egg when it comes to CFS.
In reverse therapy you think that the hypothalamus overreacts (because of stress and fear) and creates all
these terrible symptoms. I think its pretty much the same theory as Sarno (though I actually thinks that
John Eaton ; RT, explains it better - is more scientific. Sarno is a great doctor but you can not blame him for
being scientific in a more conventional way - that isn´t his thing. He more or less describes what he has seen under many years but it t isn´t strange that he has a hard time publishing his knowledge in serious medicine papers . I do not mind that - I trust him - but I wouldn´t say that his theory is scientifically proofed.
But I do not have time to wait for that .
My personal vie (and experience) is that the overactice hypothalamus (because of stress and fear and lack of control etc.) comes first.
Then your body and the inner organs doesn’t function in a proper way and you get sensitive to food and alcohol and other stuff.
In a good period - when I am happy and my stress levels are low - I can tolerate alcohol pretty well -when I visited San Diego and had a jet leg and drank many glasses of nice wine - I felt just fine! But in bad periods I can be totally exhausted after one glass of wine and ten hours sleep.
I wouldn´t not blame the poison in the wine (though it of course is a good thing to avoid it until you feel better).
I think it can be a trap to be to obsessed about poison in food and blood sugar etc and concentrate to much on that.
But if you are really sick and exhausted you perhaps have to work with your symptoms in lots of ways.
But my experience is that you can tolerate most things if your mind is in balance.
Kajsa
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 11:36:03
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Great discussion folks! This is just what I was hoping to trigger.
BTW, I'm really not trying to dis Sarno and I hope I dont come across that way. I have great respect for him and his pioneering ideas. He worked for years as a rebel, in isolation. Part of the problem I think is he never had the benefit of like minded colleagues, getting together periodically at conferences and the like to discuss research and papers and theories and insights. He hashed out his theories pretty much on his own, based on his own observations. Any human in that situation is going to miss the odd thing. And as our understanding increases it's going to follow some of his ideas are going to require some refinement. That's not his fault - unlike in more fashionable branches of medicine he never had the benefit of colleagues with whom he could bounce around ideas and observations.
With CFS the reality is that nobody really knows, but it seems to me that Drs. Sarno and Poesnecker (see my above post) each shed light into different parts of a very complex equation. I'll also give a closer look to the Reverse Therapy site - Thanks Kajsa - despite the rather New Agey sounding name I'd say this John Eaton chap is probably onto something. He speaks to my experiences. There's some overlap with both Sarno and Poesnecker's ideas with some of his own twists.
I will continue to insist that anyone who tries to lump all CFS into one simple pigeonhole is fooling themselves. There definately are trends though. Like many illnesses - cancer for example - there's a predisposing personality type with emotional factors and stresses playing a much larger role than has been acknowledged. But that doesn't mean that the physical contributing factors can be completely ignored. Work in a pesticide factory, live in an asbestos insulated home and smoke 6 packs of cigarettes a day and you'll likely get cancer no matter how you deal with your emotional life. I think that CFS best follows this model, in that it's the end pathway of a process where the body ends out screaming due to some huge insult, emotional or otherwise, or accumulation of insults.
These are different from straight pain syndromes - I think you'd all agree that the physical contaminant factors in these are irrelevant for most.
I agree with your last post Kajsa. I also agree that there's a point where the fear and obsession over contaminants becomes a more serious problem than the contaminants themselves. It's a matter of keeping perspective.
Elise8, thank you for your posts too! I wasted years and so much $$ on the standard and mostly uselss 'alternative' treatments before eventually stumbling into a path similar to yours. I think we can both say we know the difference between placebo or 'witch doctor' treatments, and treatments that really do work. You may get fooled short term by placebos, but the body is wise and it ultimately will tell the truth.
"Unless you have had something like this you have no idea what it is like. I can tell the difference between my TMS type pain and symptoms and this. You may not be able to relate (lucky you), but I assure you that it was more than TMS and needed more than TMS books or my acceptance of TMS".
Well said. You've lived it. As one who's also lived it, I say trust your your experience and your own innate wisdom. Others might think they know, but they really dont.
Kajsa, you also asked about adaptogens - Russian scientists have done a lot of work with adaptogen herbs, and because Western doctors know nothing about them they lump them in with all the other alternative treatments and assume they're bogus. That's their own prejudice and they're so wrong. Origination of the term adaptogen has been dated to 1947 and credited to a Russian scientist, Lazarev. He defined an "adaptogen" as an agent that allows an organism to counteract adverse physical, chemical, or biological stressors by generating non-specific resistance. Inherent in his definition is the concept that administration of the adaptogenic agent allows an organism to pre-adapt itself in a manner that allows it to be more capable of responding appropriately when diverse demands are eventually placed on it.
The adaptogen that works best for my CFS is suma root. Any google search will give more info.
Also, it was my open minded family doctor and a doctor of Environmental Medicine that requested the adrenal and thyroid tests. Check out this link for a lab in Holland that does specialized endocrine tests. It has an intesesting account of an ME/thyroid link.
http://www.lafolie.freeserve.co.uk/
In the US, there's the Broda Barnes Foundation, and also others, but I dont have the links handy.
http://www.brodabarnes.org/
I'll just add that assuming that everything is automatically ok if modern conventional medicine cannot detect a problem with standard tests is really silly. Tests are constantly being improved upon and refined. For example, the tests and parameters that define thyroid problems have been expanded upon many times over the years, with each refinement allowing many more patients access to needed treatment when their test results previously said 'ok'. After the most recent refinement of TSH parameters happened just a few years ago, I got prescribed dessicated thyroid, and bingo! Immediate improvement.
Anyway, for the purposes of this forum I'm going to stop talking physical now. The point of my original post was to implore anyone who assumes that all CFS is just TMS to please keep an open mind. No doubt fatigue itself can be TMS, but CFS is way more complex than just simple fatigue. Surely there are other pathways of mindbody interaction. Would you expect a cancer patient to go into remission just from reading Sarno? Nope, but it sure might be a helpful tool for providing insights into their neglected emotional lives and ultimately help them heal.
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 15:04:42
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Kajsa, is it possible to explain briefly what tool or process John Eaton uses with Reverse Therapy? For example, say a CFS patient is going into a demanding or stressful situation and is noticing that he is already exhausted. He's not sure if he'll be able to continue. TMS theory would say ignore the symptoms, focus on emotional issues and continue with the activities. What would Reverse Therapy say to do here? From what the site says it seems to advocate paying more attention to the symptoms, and figuring out what they're trying to say.
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yowire
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 20:03:19
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From PeterW
quote:
all too often on this board I see folks whose knowledge of CFS is limited to quoting Sarno making a whole lot of assumptions,...
I had CFS for many years. There was an extended period where I could not even get out of bed for more than 10 seconds before I had to lay down again. The condition would vary in severity and there were times when I could also be up and about. It came with a long list of associated symptoms including swollen glands and continuous low-grade fevers. This went on for years and many aspects of it are still with me after over 25 years. I mention this because I don't feel your above quote applies to me. I believe that I know as much about this as anyone because I have experienced it first hand.
I also say this because I have a different opinion on this subject and at present that is all we really have are opinions and as you say "assumptions". I do believe that Dr. Sarno's assumptions are correct, however.
quote:
CFS is probably best understood simply as a disorder of stress modulation. Stress of all kinds and any kind triggers symptoms. Once it has established it's grip any stress, physical, mental or emotional, will exacerbate the condition. Rest will alleviate symptoms. What triggers it in the first place? - In a word stress (or trauma)
I disagree that stress is what triggers CFS. I believe CFS begins with a frame of mind. A perception that our body is fragile or weak or incompetent, that we have "bad nerves" or we have a "sensitive nervous system" or a feeling that our immune system is vulnerable ,a belief that in some sense we are at risk. This coupled with a belief that stress is extremely dangerous and harmful to us that is out of proportion with reality. A belief that we just can't handle it. This is what sets the stage. The unconscious mind seizes upon this frame of mind to initiate symptoms because the individual will believe in them. I believe that if most CFS sufferers honestly look back to the onset of this disorder they will see that they had this frame of mind. This is exactly the same thing that happens when a person for whatever reason has a frame of mind that would believe a back or spine is fragile or weak. These people will get back pain.
This frame of mind is mostly due to our culture of medicine and the media. Our personality type is a factor also. Our sensitive personalities play right into this because we naturally feel more vulnerable. We are constantly bombarded with news about new threats to our health both medical and environmental. My CFS was severe in the 1980's just after AIDS came on the scene and other mystery syndromes like "the yuppie flu", CFS, and "the yeast syndrome". I was actually able to find different doctors that treated me for CFS and the yeast syndrome. I could write a whole book chapter on our medical culture and how it has affected us, but I hope you get the point that we are left with a sense that we are at risk.
As far as physical trauma, accidents and such. The literature on the modern syndromes often cites that patients report either an accident (physical trauma) or an emotional event at or near the onset. The main reason for this is not the stress of the events but the fact that the unconscious mind takes the opportunity of these events to gain dominance when you are in a weakened state. A state where you're frame of mind is even more likely to percieve that you are fragile and vulnerable to further misfortune. Edwin Shorter, in his book "From Paralysis to Fatigue" reports that the triggers for hysterical paralysis at the end of the 1800's were a traumatic injury or a personal shock. This is pretty much identical to triggers reported for CFS and Fibromyalgia today. You could blame stress as the culprit here too but why is the symptom different? The reason is that this is the symptom the unconscious mind could get away with in the culture of that time.
quote:
But for the severly afflicted I would really steer clear of encouraging a CFS patient to 'return to normal activity' until there's a marked improvement in the condition.........This is disastrous when overdone and can precipitate major relaspses that last months or years.
You may be right about this to an extent. I can remember times when I would feel a little better, then I would try to exercise only to have a relapse of swollen glands and fatigue that could last for weeks or longer. However, it is possible that this could be a conditioned response. I'm just not sure. I've read posts here where people with pain have seen it relapse due to exercise. However, I am not one who believes that TMS is always harmless. I believe it can cause changes in the body. For example, I think that it can affect the immune system. Many CFS responses may be real physical responses. If this is true than yes, it may not be a good idea to return to normal activity until mind and body are ready. I believe that this doesn't change the fact that it is initiated in the mind.
quote:
I know I experience a tremendous amount of internal sadness and even horror when I think back to the time when I was laid out, all the wasted years in the prime of my life (late 20's, early 30's), and the struggles of just trying to live and get by in this condition day to day.
I also was afflicted with CFS in my twenties. I am now in my mid forties. Think about this for a moment. Wouldn't our bodies be much more capable of handling stresses when we are younger? I have just as much stress to deal with now as I did then. In fact, since I've been on Dr. Sarno's program I have gone through several very stressful episodes but my symptoms continued to improve right through them. The difference is that my frame of mind is different. I don't believe that I am fragile in the face of stress.
quote:
I improved vastly when my endocrine system was balanced out. Thorough (and I mean thorough) adrenal and thyroid testing is really helpful. Free T3, T4, THS, free DHEA, even specialized saliva and urine tests. The standard lab tests will likely just turn up low normal. For me, dessicated thyroid, low dose DHEA and adaptogenic herbs all made an amazing and perceptible difference, immediately.
I too overcame CFS well before I ever heard of Dr. Sarno. I did none of the things you mentioned above. I think that the main reason I improved was that over time I began to lose my fear of the symptoms because doctors and their tests kept reassuring me that nothing was wrong. Once the symptoms lose their effectiveness they are replaced by new ones. From my experience, if you take 100 different recovered CFS patients you will probably have 100 different therapies that they employed. As you probably know, some have even improved using pharmaceuticals. Why do all these different modalities seem to work? The common denominator is that these therapies begin to change your frame of mind. You now start to believe that your body is once again competent or becoming so. The modality gives you a psychological boost wherein you are now empowered and not quite so fragile. In other words, your mind is reconditioned to how you view your body and the symptoms and you are less afraid. I feel this is the only thing that explains why all these diverse methods seem to work. They work because it is TMS.
PeterW, from your posts it seems like you are trying to argue that Dr. Sarno's method will not work for CFS. It is the correct diagnosis but as with these other modalities, it takes time and will only work if the patient accepts the diagnosis. If they do not accept it than I agree that they should try something they believe in. I don't think very many people with CFS have even been exposed to TMS concepts because Dr. Sarno is usually always thought of as a pain specialist. There are some success stories that have been reported, however.
As I mentioned, after I overcame CFS, other symptoms arose to take its place. I have a completely different syndrome now. I know of other people who have recovered from CFS only to develop other symptoms also. This is a hallmark of TMS.
quote:
Unless you have had something like this you have no idea what it is like. I can tell the difference between my TMS type pain and symptoms and this. You may not be able to relate (lucky you), but I assure you that it was more than TMS and needed more than TMS books or my acceptance of TMS".
I have had this as I said before. I know what it is like and I am convinced that it is TMS. This proves nothing.
I'm not saying there is never a physical component to CFS, but I believe that if there is this component it is a very minor one in most cases. There probably are cases which have been referred to CFS which are not TMS but these are probably in the minority.
I believe TMS is the correct diagnosis. The answer is reconditioning the mind. This begins with understanding that we are not fragile, that our immune systems are strong, that are nerves are not overly sensitive or weak and that we can handle stress.
It really doesn't matter how many physical markers are discovered. Until the role of the unconscious mind is understood, the real cause of CFS will not be found.
Just my opinion,
Yowire
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 22:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajsa
Second thoughts.
I think "recover" is just the word (language problems...).
The word that I do not like is "cured".
I agree with you that I do not like to use the word cure. My fibromyalgia pain has a tendency to come back, so on-going work is required to keep it away. To me, "cure" implies I wouldn't have these on-going problems. That's why I use the word recover.
Thanks for the update on your condition. Has your CFS improved beyond 50% because of reverse therapy?
Jim
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elise8
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 12:46:02
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Peter, do you mind telling me what brand of Suma Root you take? I googled on it but there are so many companies that sell it, I am not sure of a good quality one.. thx.
Elise8
Elise8 |
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CFS /ME
