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n/a
374 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2005 : 05:15:28
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One thing that recent discussions have brought up is the idea that oxygen deprivation is said to be the cause of TMS muscle pain.
As I recall (I have lent my books to friends), Dr Sarno says that oxygen deprivation may be the cause of pain in the back. He doesn't say that it definitely is the cause. I think he based that on a study done in Germany.
Once a person has ruled out tumours, infections and other sinister diseases - and I know that many of us who post here have been through every test and scan going; does it matter that we know the exact psyiological process involved?
Getting bogged down in the physical process that causes TMS could be counter-productive. As a non-medical person, it doesn't matter to me very much. Yes, it would be interesting, but recovery does not depend on it in any way.
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Edited by - n/a on 06/21/2005 05:18:17 |
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Carolyn
184 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 07:24:03
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I'm not at all convinced that oxygen deprivation is the mechanism and I think Sarno probably subjects himself to more critisism because he suggests this. It doesn't explain all of the TMS equivalents. But I also don't thik kit matters at all what the mechanism is. Your brain sends messages to activate neurons (and cause muscle contraction) and your brain receives messages through neurons that you are in pain. Somewhere in that loop lies the answer.
Carolyn |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 07:46:11
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| I personally believe it is oxygen deprivation only where the autonomic nervous system is involved (muscle, tendon and nerve); it all started out as healing back pain until Dr Sarno began seeing other problems dissappear at the same time. When the immune system is affected is where the physical cause becomes more of a mystery--asthma, allergy, etc. It is not necessary to know the physiological cause, but knowing there is one is what makes tms different from the hysterical patients that Freud treated. In the hysterical patients, there was no neurological, or is it pathological, reason for their paralysis or blindness --ie, there was nothing physical causing it. There being a physical reason (not the underlying cause, but more of an intervening cause) for the pain puts the syndomrome in the province of MDs and not psychiatrists. That may actually be a good thing since psychiatrists would, ironically, probably have more trouble accepting tms that MDs????? That's crazy to think, but Sarno points out that the psychiatrist reference book (?) doesn't acknowledge true psychosomatic illnesses. Anyway, it actually benefits me to know this to the extent that it makes the syndrome real and not totally in my head. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 07:51:30
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Edited by - johnnyg on 06/21/2005 07:52:40 |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 08:59:15
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I may have started this unintentionally, but in any case.
First of all, Sarno does say the pain is from oxygen deprivation.
HBP page 82 "The direct reason for the pain is mild oxygen deprivation."
This can be referred to in muscle as hypoxia, it can also be related to blood co2 problems related to breathing problems, hyperventilation, and is a common feature of panic disorder.
In lieu of this i would think it would be wise to apply breathing techniques such as buteyko on a regular basis, and perhaps investigate, oxygenation in some manner to the tissues.
Oxygen can also be used in treating neuropathy for the same reasons.
I understand we are dealing with the the supposition that repressed emotions are the cause of all this, however, if lack of oxygen is causing the pain syndrome, why not treat this, it would only verify the tms claim, and ease suffering on the road to treating the emotions.
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 09:59:56
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To me it doesn't make sense that it's oxygen depravation, because I know something about physiology, and there is no way that oxygen depravation could cause attacks to happen so suddenly.
On the other hand, if a muscle fiber is caused to be in a contracted state for an extended period of time, and blood flow isn't adjusted accordingly, this could cause oxygen depravation to happen. In this case it would be an effect, rather than a cause.
The key thing is that the cause is psychological rather than physical. There is more than one way in which the mind could cause the body to produce pain. |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 10:15:05
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I agree Albert. However in all the books, Dr.Sarno does cite oxygen defecit to be the cause of the pain.
It does not say as you mentioned, that it caused the attack, merely that it is responsible for the pain.
If you have muscular, nerve pain, try the following, try deep breathing exercises. Breathe in for 4, out slow for 8 hold for 10 or more and repeat. Do this as an experiment for at least 15 minutes.
I find that i am able to at times, make the pain diminish, or go away for a while.
Again this is related to panic/flight fight situations also. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 10:31:46
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Dr. Sarno's "science" may be wrong.
There is evidence that oxygen deprivation is responsible for muscle and nerve symptoms. But whether it is as simple as that is anybody's guess.
As Albert says, it's not important to understand the science; only to accept that the brain does something to cause physical symptoms for the sole purpose to serve as a distraction. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 10:48:59
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Quote: "it is not important to understand the science; only to accept that the brain does something to cause physical symptoms for the sole purpose to serve as a distraction."
That's true because, as stated on the first page of the Appendix to MBP, conversion hysterical symptoms (no physiological change) and phychogenic symptoms (physiological change) serve the same psychic purpose--diversion. However, if you don't accept some actual physiologic response caused by the brain, then you will have that gap between mind and body that is discussed at the bottom of page 181. Because of Candice Pert's research, Dr. Sarno accepts as axiomatic that the mind directly affects a physiologic response that causes pain. It may not matter what the physiologic response is, but mindbody medicine will continue to rest on the supposition that there is one somewhere, otherwise, you are talking about pure conversion symptoms and not actual psychosomatic illness. |
Edited by - johnnyg on 06/21/2005 11:03:03 |
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Does it matter if it is oxygen deprivation?
