| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sky |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 14:20:42
I've been thinking: there's a weakness in the way we currently talk about TMS and healing practices. We say that 100% belief in the diagnosis in TMS is necessary for 100% relief.
Some people have even mentioned that when they only believed in the TMS diagnosis 80%, they only got 80% better, as if these people thought there was a direct correlation between one's % of belief in TMS and one's % of recovery.
But a post I read recently have made question the way we say talk and think about this.
The post came from a person who'd cured several maladies with TMS knowledge before incurring hip and knee pain. She was sure it was TMS, until raising her bike seat 1 inch removed all the pain (she'd recently biked 500 miles with the too-low-seat). Maybe the pain cure was the placebo effect. She acknowledged that much. But maybe it was the seat being too low.
So here's my question:
have people beaten TMS without 100% assurance that their malady was TMS?
Let me elaborate: the reason it helps to buy into the TMS diagnosis 100% is because it forces you to evaluate your own emotional issues. It forces you to address emotional things in your life you were somehow too afraid or unable to deal with earlier. If you think your hands hurt because you type too much, not because you're a perfectionist, then you won't address your debilitating perfectoinist tendencies.
But what if you're not sure if your pain is TMS? What if it might be caused by repressed emotions, but also, maybe it isn't?
Can you go forward with that uncertainty, still address your emotional issues by acknowledging the strong possibility that they are causing your pain, and achieve a cure?
Can anyone speak to having this experience, specifically?
One reservation I have about TMS is that it almost sounds cultish sometimes: YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE 100% IN ORDER TO HEAL!!!! I'm not sure that's true. I feel like you can have a healthy dose of skepticism (indeed, not all health maladies are TMS) and still address emotional problems, bring yourself to a healthier place regarding those issues, and, thus, beat TMS. |
| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dave |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 08:55:14
quote:
Originally posted by alexis
quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
It's funny, when i first called Sarno a decade+ ago and expressed some doubts about it being TMS, he refused to see me! I had to call back and lie, tell him i was "now convinced it was TMS" just to get the appointment.
This raises an interesting issue regarding the clinical observations by TMS doctors regarding belief and recovery. If the truly committed are lying in order to get treatment (and I suspect this is not at all uncommon), observations regarding claims of "belief" may in fact better measure committment or even desparation.
I think that if someone is desperate enough to lie to Dr. Sarno just to get an appointment, then they are probably desperate enough to try anything to get relief, including Dr. Sarno's program.
Healing Back Pain discusses at least one patient who did not necessarily believe in the diagnosis but had tried everything else and was desperate enough to follow the program, and had success. |
| alexis |
Posted - 07/21/2007 : 21:52:44
quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
It's funny, when i first called Sarno a decade+ ago and expressed some doubts about it being TMS, he refused to see me! I had to call back and lie, tell him i was "now convinced it was TMS" just to get the appointment.
This raises an interesting issue regarding the clinical observations by TMS doctors regarding belief and recovery. If the truly committed are lying in order to get treatment (and I suspect this is not at all uncommon), observations regarding claims of "belief" may in fact better measure committment or even desparation.
Reminds me of why studies (or observations) involving self-reporting need to be treated with such suspicion. If we believed everything subjects told physicians or researchers, we'd end up accepting the common finding that men have sex with their wives twices as often as the women have sex with those same husbands.
Self-reporting of belief, recovery, or even behavior should be treated with deep skepticism. Especially when reported in a face to face situation with someone in a position of relative power, such as ones physician. |
| bert |
Posted - 07/21/2007 : 17:09:00
Here, Here about the bad habbit part Dave mentions. Just reprogram ourselves is the key IMO. Constantly here how this and that is the problem over the years had me believing what I heard. Now I can believe what I feel as I've heard to the contrary. If I truely believe in anything, it will most definitely be that way in time. It's my reality.
I need to go away again and retrain my beliefs
bye for now. |
| Dave |
Posted - 07/21/2007 : 12:42:29
quote:
Originally posted by Sky
I've been thinking: there's a weakness in the way we currently talk about TMS and healing practices. We say that 100% belief in the diagnosis in TMS is necessary for 100% relief.
What is 100% anyway?
Are you expecting to never again in your life have a mindbody symptom? If so I think it is an unrealistic expectation.
Who can really quantify "belief" or "relief"? 50%? 80%? What does that mean?
Many people tend to make things more complicated than they need to be. There are really only 3 steps to getting better. How much you can belive (or at least convince yourself that it is possible you have TMS and give it an honest effort) is important, in that you cannot simply read the book and pay lip service to the treatment.
However, equally important (or perhaps even more important) is a commitment to a life-long change in the way you think about and react to mindbody symptoms. If you make this change, you will slowly recondition yourself and the pain will fade, and the belief will come naturally.
IMO it's counterproductive to quantify TMS symptoms or level of belief in the diagnosis. Think of TMS as a bad habit you developed over the entire course of your life, and it's now time to unlearn that habit. It won't happen overnight and it takes work. Most importantly, like quitting any bad habit, it takes long-term commitment. |
| gezondheid |
Posted - 07/21/2007 : 11:58:33
100% / 80% / yes belief / no belief / other cures / Sarno this and that./ what if/ anyone else/ like a cult.
/
To me it is like this:
1 - find out if there is a structural - physical cause. If you are in real doubt make a study of it. Study how the body works (the part where the pain is) and get to a doctor to check you out. Don't stop until you are satisfied otherwise the doubt can return.
2 - when there is no physical cause most doctors will tell you it is a mindthing.
3- look for the repressed stuff / look for your painconditionings-paterns. Work with it.
4 - gather a lot of information about informationtherapy, Sarno, Sopher, Schechter, Sensei Rostocky, Brady, Perth, what the bleep do we know 1-2, Weil etc. Find your way in it and make a healing system yourself. Don't overdo it. make it specific
5-find several ways to approach your unconscious from screaming till meditation. It must sink in.
6 - look for examples of the power of the mind. Monks can do funny things.
7 - Implement it in your life. It is my struggle also. What i can say that working with it is better than a constant doubt. When doubt, back to point one.
Greetings from holland. Rasmussen showed today the power of the mind
move-on |
| stanfr |
Posted - 07/21/2007 : 02:41:07
"I remarked that it isn't really 100%, faith-like belief that's necessary, but a 100% commitment to treating the problem as TMS and dealing with it in that context, and not getting grabbed by the inevitable doubts that do crop up."
Exactly! I've always felt the 100% thing was overrated. It's funny, when i first called Sarno a decade+ ago and expressed some doubts about it being TMS, he refused to see me! I had to call back and lie, tell him i was "now convinced it was TMS" just to get the appointment. Of course, a part of me was convinced, the doubting part wasn't. It was only after i cured myself that i gained 100% confidence that the pain had been psychosomatic (as opposed to 100% belief in the Sarno method). Now, im not sure that my latest AOS problems are even 100% psychosomatic, since i have a better understanding that mind/body affect each other, and that real
physical problems can originate from the psyche but still take on a life of their own, so therefore may not be susceptible to the "simple" Sarno plan. Perhaps my change in viewpoint is keeping me from a quick recovery this time around--who knows. I just think if the distraction aspect of the theory is correct, 100% faith should be irrelevant. If you can defeat the purpose, you defeat the pain. In other words, if you can keep your "doubt" from becoming a part of the distraction, the doubt can't hinder you from obtaining relief. Perhaps Sarno believes this is impossible to do; from personal experience i'd say it is. |
| Jim1999 |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 22:23:29
quote:
Originally posted by Sky
We say that 100% belief in the diagnosis in TMS is necessary for 100% relief...But a post I read recently have made question the way we say talk and think about this.
The post came from a person who'd cured several maladies with TMS knowledge before incurring hip and knee pain. She was sure it was TMS, until raising her bike seat 1 inch removed all the pain (she'd recently biked 500 miles with the too-low-seat). Maybe the pain cure was the placebo effect. She acknowledged that much. But maybe it was the seat being too low.
Sky,
I believe this is the posting you were refering to: http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2155
You should also read Mary Ann's follow-up posting: http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2299
Her knee pain returned, which showed that the seat height was not the real problem. She had to believe that the pain was TMS to get rid of it.
Jim |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 20:11:44
Sky, I think you might be talking about Maryalma, right? I think it was her that raised her bike seat.
I don't see the connection between this and 100% belief. Even if you have 100% belief in certain pain being TMS it doesn't mean you feel the same about other pain (though I think anyone with TMS history has to entertain the strong possibility that new pain is TMS).
There was quite a bit of insightful discussion about this in a recent thread by JohnO. I remarked that it isn't really 100%, faith-like belief that's necessary, but a 100% commitment to treating the problem as TMS and dealing with it in that context, and not getting grabbed by the inevitable doubts that do crop up. This is a distinction I feel is much underrated. Acknowledgment and belief is not much as long as the commitment to behave as if the problem is TMS is not there. (There are some people on this board who demonstrate this pretty well.) Commitment doesn't require 100% belief, just enough belief to go for it. And enough desperation, which was surely a big ingredient in my ultimate decision to just go for it even though I was still skeptical.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 18:01:14
quote:
Originally posted by Sky
Another post looks at another side of this issue. I think Skizzik recently posted about being worn out from TMS "work." He'd done all the TMS work, still wasn't finding relief, and had hit a wall in terms of frustration.
Most people responding (I agreed) felt he had gone too far with it. Like skill, the TMS work can be overdone, making it less effective. We all sort of felt that Skizzik might've gotten to that point.
Well, if we all INSIST that 100% belief in TMS is necessary to reach a cure, we might lose sight of the actual physical causes of things, and we might go into overdrive and suffer the frustration that Skizzik recently faced.
thanx for noticing my fustration. "Overdrive" is not the place to be I'm finding out. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 17:58:18
quote:
Originally posted by westcoastram
Most, if not all, the people I've met with TMS have compulsive tendencies... many of us have these tendencies too (a forum such as this is as much a breeding ground for them as it is a enabler)
thats a good point. I suppose if your'e here, it's safe to assume you have TMS. |
| westcoastram |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 17:47:44
I think the 100% belief thing is as much a blessing as it is a curse. Unfortunately, in my experience and my experience with others with TMS, obsessing about 100% can itself be an equivalent... any obsessing for that matter.
What I would love for the doctor to do at some point is to approach the 100% thing for another angle in his writings.
Namely... if you eventually stop all medications, diets, stretches and admonishments from your doctors and you improve aside from those things, improve from doing the emotional work... then what you have can be nothing but TMS. Does that get to 100%, maybe, maybe it gets you to 97%... but the result is pretty much the same. 100% isn't a bolt of lightning... it's a process. It's not an either/or, it's a destination that we may reach. It's a hill that we run down and the farther we go, the faster we travel.
Most, if not all, the people I've met with TMS have compulsive tendencies... many of us have these tendencies too (a forum such as this is as much a breeding ground for them as it is a enabler) and the compulsion, the desire, the perfectionist that needs you to get to 100%, well, that's part and parcel of who you are and why you have this.
Have any of you ever asked yourselves, what if I never get rid of this pain? What if what I have isn't TMS? What if I'm barking up the wrong tree? What if I have TMS but I never gain control of it? How do the above statements make you feel? Explore those feelings...write them down. Sit with them for awhile and then maybe next time you ride the bike, walk the dog, do the hockey-pockey... things will feel just a little bit better.
And if so, and you feel better, could it have been anything but TMS? |
| alexis |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 16:10:25
quote:
Originally posted by Sky
have people beaten TMS without 100% assurance that their malady was TMS?
Let me elaborate: the reason it helps to buy into the TMS diagnosis 100% is because it forces you to evaluate your own emotional issues.
....
But what if you're not sure if your pain is TMS? What if it might be caused by repressed emotions, but also, maybe it isn't?
Can you go forward with that uncertainty, still address your emotional issues by acknowledging the strong possibility that they are causing your pain, and achieve a cure?
Can anyone speak to having this experience, specifically?
One reservation I have about TMS is that it almost sounds cultish sometimes: YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE 100% IN ORDER TO HEAL!!!! I'm not sure that's true. I feel like you can have a healthy dose of skepticism (indeed, not all health maladies are TMS) and still address emotional problems, bring yourself to a healthier place regarding those issues, and, thus, beat TMS.
Yes I have never been 100% sure that what caused my problems was TMS, though my belief is over 50% (usually in the 80-90% range). I have also never believed in 100% of the components of the TMS theory, though I believe in the primary parts (that the mind, for instance, instigates the pain) also with greater than 50% assurance).
This is discussed a bit in my bio, in my success story, and in more detail in several other threads. Certain people don't like me or others saying this (for reasons still unclear to me, but, yes, seemingly to do with a type of fanatical intolerance). I don't plan on getting into another fight about it. If you are interested, check out my earlier posts.
And yes, parts of the “Sarno culture” seem cult-like to me, too -- especially the folks who flip out every time I suggest some may be able heal without 100% believing in 100% of the theory (my main reason for staying on this board, by the way). Just try to look past that. Keep in mind that Sarno is a fairly bright fellow who is trying to spread his ideas to the widest masses, and for most people the 100% goal is probably a reasonable ideal. For others of us it risks scaring us away from the whole endeavour.
But I believe (with significantly over 50% certainty) that I had something very similar to what Sarno describes as TMS. I went from pretty-crippled to a normal life. Good luck.
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| Sky |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 14:24:17
Another post looks at another side of this issue. I think Skizzik recently posted about being worn out from TMS "work." He'd done all the TMS work, still wasn't finding relief, and had hit a wall in terms of frustration.
Most people responding (I agreed) felt he had gone too far with it. Like skill, the TMS work can be overdone, making it less effective. We all sort of felt that Skizzik might've gotten to that point.
Well, if we all INSIST that 100% belief in TMS is necessary to reach a cure, we might lose sight of the actual physical causes of things, and we might go into overdrive and suffer the frustration that Skizzik recently faced. |
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