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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2005 : 18:31:41
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Hey all,
This is a hard message for me to write but I need the input of people who understand (hopefully) what I'm going through.
I've been "pain free" for about two years now. But lately, I've been seeing an increase in TMS "twinges" and equivalents that seem to be triggered by a sense of bodily shame and by the nagging fear that I am repressing an instance of sexual abuse.
Before I went to bed last night, I was reading the autobiography of a woman who was raped by her father when she was 5. I absolutely don't think I was abused by my dad (my stepfather) but I am wondering why I slept badly all night long and woke up today feeling like I have the flu. This is the second time recently that I've been writing about my own childhood, or reading about someone else's, and gotten sick.
This morning, I started feeling very paranoid that maybe I was sexually abused by my biological father or by his father who had a reputation for being a batterer and an emotionally abusive father to his kids.
I have always had what I considered a good memory but this morning as I was trying to "think psychological" to get rid of my naseau and headache, I realized that there is a xmas break (when I was 5) that I spent with my biological father that I can't really recall anything about except him bringing me home.
I also remembered that I when I was little, I liked his father (my grandpa) very much but when he died (I was 9), I felt nothing, or maybe slightly annoyed, and I cracked some smartass comments at his funeral that got me into hot water with my mom.
I don't want to think that I was abused by either of these men, and I have absolutely no "proof" of anything like that at all, no scarring, not a single definitive mental picture, nothing like that. But I find myself thinking something must have happened to me, at a very young age, that I don't remember, or why else would I feel so bad about myself?
Why am I so anxious about sex, why do I feel so claustrophobic sometimes? Why do I really dislike kissing my husband if he has beer breath?
The thing is, I do clearly remember being sexually abused (coerced into "games" I didn't want to play but nothing forcible or physically invasive) by a succession of boys, a neighbor, a cousin, two different boys at two different babysitters. And I thought I'd already dealt with this stuff in therapy when I was younger.
I'm just really confused right now. I'm wondering, is the abuse I remember significant enough to cause my lingering feelings of shame and unworthiness - not to mention an aversion to sex that is threatening the happiness of my otherwise very happy marriage? Or is there something bigger, badder and buried that I should be in therapy for, again.
Of course, this gets into the whole controversy about recovered vs. manufactured memories and the last thing I want to do is make up more trauma than I already have.
I would appreciate any input from any women (or men) whose TMS was related to sexual abuse, especially if the issues started surfacing after you were "cured."
Thank you,
Logan |
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 13:55:22
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Dear Logan,
I have posted on this forum before about my own history of being sexually abused. One of my abusers was my own grandmother (I know, very weird). I did not remember this abuse until I was pregnant with my first child. I do not wish to share how I figured this out and what memories surfaced on this forum but I'd be happy to talk to you via e-mail. Another incident that occurred was when I was 8. A neighbor took me and some other little girls into his home (he had kids of his own) and forced us to touch him and undress him. It was horrible. He locked us in and his own children out. I had to testify in court against him and the judge ruled in his favor, saying these were "pipe dreams" of a bunch of little girls. It was no pipe dream. I still remember the whole thing quite vividly.
However, like you, I have also wondered about sexual abuse on the part of either my paternal grandfather or my own father. I don't know why but it's just a feeling I have without an actual memory to put my finger on. My grandfather was very abusive and was a drunk. I know that the mind can repress things for a long time and then suddenly the memories can come out. I have never said anything because I don't have any actual memory to back my accusation up but the constant wondering can drive you crazy. I think we just have to try to let it go because if we do not it will drive us absolutely crazy. The only thing I can remember about my father is that he was always telling me really inappropriate things - like sexual jokes that I didn't even understand. I also remember him walking around naked but that's about it.
Like you I am EXTREMELY claustrophobic. I can barely get on an elevator anymore it's gotten so bad. I've had a lot of fears and phobias for a long time and I've often wondered about this too. If my ears get blocked up (water, ear infections, etc.) I freak out - this is my claustrophic nightmare, almost as if I'm locked inside myself and cannot escape.
If you want to, you can e-mail me and we can talk further. I know it is a very lonely feeling when you have suffered abuse. Having someone to talk to helps. I was in therapy for years. Once under hypnosis, I did have some sketchy vision of abuse by my father but I still chose not to believe it. The hypnotherapist said "You are abused by your father" but I still refused to believe it.
Sometimes I wonder what my life would be like now as an adult had I not experienced the sexual, physical, and emotional abuse as a kid. I guess it's pretty miraculous that I turned out "okay."
Laura
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Darla
6 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 18:47:57
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I was sexually abused as a child, by my grandfather. I do believe alot of my rage comes from this, as for some reason I do not feel any real anger toward the man, even though logicaly I know that I should.
I know that for alot of Fibromyalgia sufferes Childhood abuse is a big factor. I think it adds exponintially to the rage.
Darla |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2005 : 04:03:45
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Thank you Darla and Laura,
I think, for now, after talking with my mom about my father and grandfather some more that I was not abused by them. However, the more I think about the abuse I KNOW I suffered and the way it coincided with my parent's divorce and my father's abandonment of me, the more I realize why I associate him with the feelings from it (and his family, whom I also felt abandoned by).
I also am realizing why I dissassociate so much.
I decided to go back into therapy and get some help to work through this stuff. I am sick of being sick. I've been down four times this year with the tonsilitis or bronchitis, TMS equivalents that've come back since my neck pain went away. |
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polly
127 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2005 : 08:52:58
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Logan,
I read this string of posts and it reminded me why I like this forum so much.
There was a question, reactions with support and help, and your resolution to go into therapy. I applaud you and have no doubt that you'll get at the root of the problem.
I am also a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I will tell you one thing. I remember 2 incidents vividly. I'm sure there were more. I know that this is a great source of rage and fear and all the other things that come with being raped by a family member when I was 9.
I have no interest in remembering more. I don't feel it serves a purpose. The worst thing that ever happened to me as a child was when I made friends with this old retired man who I would run errands for. He was just a sweet man. My Mother, who told me never to tell anyone about what happened to me when she found out, made me stop seeing the old man. A good therapist helped me with this one. I was being punished for being raped. I couldn't be trusted around a man...an old sweet one who was kind to me. That still enrages me. That is the rage that causes pain.
I would look for those kinds of things. I have busted punching bags open in dealing with these things. I wish you the best. I think you're on the right track.
Good hunting,
Polly |
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res
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 17:22:56
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It is amazing and frustrating to me the association that seems to occur between TMS and childhood sexual abuse. I too was a victim of this and I also witnessed it happening to my older sister. I recenly realized that the reason that I panic when I feel the least little twinge of pain is because the feelings from childhood resurface. When I have pain (even a little) I start feeling like I will never survive. I fear that I will end of unable to work or take care of myself. I take this little bit of pain and suddenly I feel like I will soon be alone, broke, and miserable for the rest of my life. This is an awful feeling. I recently realized that it stems from the abuse and neglect from childhood. I would be so scared and alone feeling that I literally wondered if I would survive as a child. I have had years of counseling but it seems that new stuff surfaces when I least expect it. I do know now that when a little bit of pain surfaces in a new location that I won't give it all the worry that sets off a full blown TMS attack!
As for the wondering if there was abuse....I went through wondering if I really saw what happened to my sister or not. I had a form of therapy recently called EMDR that helped me tap into it a little. It is a way to clear the subconcious of feelings from the past and during it I had a major flashback of what happened to my sister. However, I don't know that it helped me work through it anymore to know for sure. It just became one more memory that I don't like. I will say that I am very sensitive to images in movies and books and I get very upset by these things. I think that when you have experienced bad stuff in your life that you need to offset it with filling your mind with good instead of bad. I try to screen all the TV and movies that I watch so that I am not sidelined by having bad dreams about something that I just saw in a movie.
All of us that are fighting TMS are winners and survivors. I am glad that I have been able to overcome all that I have.
Renee |
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 18:45:01
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Dear Renee,
I have wanted to try EMDR therapy for the longest time. I even have the name of a great therapist in my area. Maybe one of these days I'll give it a shot.
That first paragraph you wrote could have easily been written by me. I think you're right. When you have a horrible childhood and feel trapped with nowhere to go, it is such a disempowering feeling. I wish all these crazy people who go around molesting kids would get themselves some help before they ruin someone else's life. Maybe they don't realize the effects last a lifetime!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Laura |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 08:55:16
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If you are considering EMDR, or treatment for "little crystals" that cause vertigo, then you are not committed to TMS treatment. If you're not 100% committed, the treatment does not work.
Step 1: repudiate structural diagnoses.
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 09:47:06
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Excuse, me, Dave. You have no f---ing idea what you're talking about! Are you now the authority on EMDR as well? Perhaps before you speak you ought to find out about EMDR and what it's about. EMDR is a therapy that helps people delve into their subconscious and release negative, repressed emotions. In fact, I would even imagine that Dr. Sarno himself would identify with it, since it has everything to do with releasing negative emotions. Forgive me if I'm wrong (cuz I know you're always right), but isn't that what Dr. Sarno's entire philosophy is based on? Negative, repressed emotions causing physical symptoms? You really are a jerk!
As far as the uncalled for comment about "little crystals" that cause vertigo, you obviously have never suffered from vertigo or you would not have made that stupid remark. My other post was explaining my self-doubt, because I was told at the beginning by a doctor that there are little crystals in the inner ear that can become dislodged. It IS possible that my case is a combination - not everything is a straightforward, cut and dry case of TMS. It is POSSIBLE that when my head snapped back initially that the crystal problem did happen. That can go away on it's own but sometimes head tilting exercises are required to fix it - to put the dislodged "crystal" back. In my case, I believe I may have had that problem initially (or perhaps I still do - I have no idea!) but that the pattern of feeling dizzy has become ingrained or embedded in my psyche - causing me to simply "think" about being dizzy and experiencing it. This is common and this can happen.
Just because you are the moderator of this forum, Dave, doesn't make you God. I know a great deal about the human body myself and I fully accept the TMS diagnosis. You can argue with me about it all day long and I still know I have TMS. I simply don't believe everything is as black and white as you might. There are variations to everything.
Also, just a suggestion here. Insulting people who are speaking to one another on a thread about their sexual abuse as a child? That's kind of low don't you think?
I thought that the things you said to Dizzy Dave were rude but it didn't stop me from posting here. I'm going to continue to post here because I like helping others as well as getting input to help myself. Whatever happened to human kindness though. I think you could still be the moderator of this forum and be nice at the same time. You told Dave you "tolerated" his questionnaire and you also told him that this forum has "never been about" dealing with emotions. That's bulls---! ANYONE who goes on this forum knows that's completely not true. It's ALL about emotions. If you don't believe that, the YOU are the one who doesn't understand TMS. That's all I read about on here.
Anyway, have fun attacking everything I've just said. I fully expect it so don't disappoint! It will make for interesting reading later this evening.
Laura
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 10:21:19
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I was curious about EMDR myself so I googled it. I ended up on the Skeptics Dictionary and they could not summarily dismiss it, as much as they seemed to want to.
http://skepdic.com/emdr.html
Neither can the APA, they "neither encourage nor discourage" its practice by psychotherapists, or psychologists but they do support training programs for it.
It does seem to help people who suffer from PTSD, including people who've been sexually abused, researchers just can't say exactly how or why. The method's inventor, can't remember her name, can not offer any definitive scientific proof for how and why she believes it to work (by faciliatating communication between the two halves of the brain).
But for that matter, neither can Dr. Sarno.
It's funny, I was in the doc's office yesterday for a sinus infection that is I'm sure a TMS equivalent brought on by reading about the sexual abuse of others and wriitng about my own childhood, and I was reading a Reader's Digest article on how to cure your back pain.
I thought for sure there would be no mention of Sarno. However, there on the last page, after all the surgical, chiro etc., was a paragraph about Sarno.
After explaining his theory, the journalist said there was no clinical proof that he was right but that thousands of people claimed he had literally saved their lives and for them, their recoveries rendered any further proof unnecessary.
I think we can balance skepticism and belief as TMSers. I think we have all walked that line enough to be able to recognize it.
I think as grown adults we can have a discussion about the possible benefits of EMDR and its possible bull**** quotient without it threatening the TMS content of the board. I do believe that the trauma I suffered as a child, due to sexual abuse, is the #1 reason I have suffered from TMS and its equivalents all of my life.
While I'm skeptical about the rapid eye movement component of this therapy, I am interested in how a psychotherapy practice which focuses on the two halves of the brain might help me to communicate with my unconscious, or how it might help reconnect the neural connections that were disrupted by my early childhood trauma. (There is clinical proof that PTSD does change the structure of the brain.) I believe that my interest in EMDR is absolutely germaine to the topic of TMS.
Dave, please don't delete this thread. I don't think you're a jerk. Prove me right. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 10:44:41
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Wow, yet another person has reacted in an inappropriately personal and emotional way to one of my posts. I guess I'm on a roll 
For the record, I do not proport to be an authority on ANYTHING, including TMS. I do my best to stay faithful to Dr. Sarno's work. And while I may be blunt and short-spoken at times, I certainly do not intend to be rude or insulting to anyone on this forum. If you take it that way, you are being hypersensitive.
There are no studies that prove that the main component of EMDR (visual tracking) has any validity whatsoever. The theraputic component of EMDR is valuable, although it falls into the realm of behavioral therapy which Dr. Sarno does not necessarily agree with. However, if it serves to uncover repressed emotions, it can certainly be a help. But the eye movement part is probably irrelevant; the same benefit may be achieved through straight psychotherapy.
As for vertigo, it is one of the symptoms that Dr. Sarno himself has experienced and attributed to TMS. He would likely dismiss the diagnosis of "Benign Paroxysmal Positional Vertigo", as he does with other structural diagnoses that seem very real, such as plantar fasciitis (which is very popular nowadays).
Now, is it possible that the vertigo is a real physical problem, and not TMS? Sure! My main point in all this is that you can't believe that, or it hinders your progress in treating TMS. You simply cannot have it both ways. If you think the problem is structural, then go the traditional treatment route. But if you choose to treat it as TMS, you must repudiate the structural diagnosis. This is Step 1, plain and simple. Your brain wants very much for you to believe in the BPPV diagnosis, so it can continue its convincing distraction. |
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ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 12:34:43
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Dave,
I believe in TMS (unfortunately, my wife, the one with the back pain for 3 1/2 years, doesn't) and this difference has our marriage hanging by a thread (see my previous posts). But there may be other approaches to deal with the underlying emotional issues causing the TMS.
We had a woman friend who had been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, who hadn't heard about TMS (neither had we at the time) but who was eventually cured of it by some technique that involved rapid eye movement, she said, that sounded kind of hokey at the time. She said she had to deal with her childhood abuse before she could get well from her fibromyalgia.
I hadn't heard of EMDR until today, but from reading about it on their site http://www.emdr.com , I now think this may have been the therapy which helped her get rid of her Fibromyalgia. I will get in touch with her and ask. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot more EMDR therapists than there are TMS doctors. Also on their site, they cite many studies which have favorably compared their technique with other psychotherapy techniques.
So I don't believe that EMDR contradicts TMS at all. It is a psychotherapeutic technique that may be able to deal with the underlying emotional issues causing TMS. And I do believe that you were a little too dogmatic with Laura.
Best,
Ralph |
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ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 14:26:16
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I called our friend and found out that the treatment she'd had for her fibromyalgia wasn't EMDR, but something called ILT (interactive light therapy) given by a clinic in Canada to stimulate alpha and theta brain waves. The part about her childhood abuse just came up as she was doing the therapy. ILT is sometimes referred to as EDS (EEG-Driven Stimulation) and is a form of biofeedback to adjust brain waves. So I don't know whether there is any relevance to TMS or not.
Best,
Ralph |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 14:37:07
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I think Dave was just trying to help by reiterating part of the core "cure" of the Sarno method - to repudiate the physical - not focus on anything structural. His post was pretty direct and not that soft but I know was meant to be helpful.
The sexual abuse issue must be excruciating for someone to go through and recover from and my heart goes out to all who have had to experience this. |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 18:00:15
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DizzyDave,
How can you protest what you see as Dave's personal attacks on others by making personal attacks on Dave? I think that's inappropriate. He may have been blunt but I don't think he meant to be disrespectful or unfeeling.
I think we all can have a mature discussion that starts with giving people the benefit of the doubt. It's too easy to misread someone's tone via print, so we all have to make the effort to verify what the poster meant by their post before we jump on their back.
And even if we disagree with one another, it doesn't have to degenerate down to name calling and blanket accusations, does it?
Can't we all just get along? :)
I think we can. |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 21:25:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Logan
And even if we disagree with one another, it doesn't have to degenerate down to name calling and blanket accusations, does it?
Can't we all just get along? :)
I think we can.
I agree with Logan (you rock Logan!).
Its not easy in text to pick up on the non-verbal cues, since there are none. This can lead to misunderstandings, then it escalates into a flame war, that's what we have here I think.
I keep coming to this forum because it is NOT like the usenet newsgroups, and I think so do a lot of other people.
I'm going to take a great big deep breath and chill. Who wants to join me? :-)
Less angst. More rescues. Take care, -Stryder |
Edited by - Stryder on 04/14/2005 21:27:19 |
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dizzy dave
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 07:23:09
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I have to admit; the "You Rock" statement I made earlier was a bit juvenile. With all due respect, I wanted to write to Logan first and foremost. I apologize for littering your thread with this garbage. It really is just that. I hope you find answers to your questions and find some relief. This discussion between Laura, Dave and I didn't start here, as Sryder probably recognizes. I will back off a bit and try to keep my opinions on this matter to a minimum. Laura, I consider you a friend and didn't like to see you get hurt. Back to business as usual.
Dizzy
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 09:02:40
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quote:
Originally posted by dizzy dave
Here, on this string, people are spilling their hearts about intimate and personal information and you write,
"If you are considering EMDR, or treatment for "little crystals" that cause vertigo, then you are not committed to TMS treatment. If you're not 100% committed, the treatment does not work.
Step 1: repudiate structural diagnoses."
are you crazy, man? Do you have any sensitivity?
It is very dangerous to read feelings into a text message. Text does not convey emotion, therefore, it is solely up to your interpretation.
If you want to interpret my post as insensitive, that's your right, but you're just plain wrong. My intent was to simply point out that seeking physical treatments for TMS symptoms is absolutely contradictory to Dr. Sarno's theory.
I've said it before ... there is a clear line between a blunt, strongly worded, or even opinionated message, and a personal attack. Your post falls clearly into the latter category.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated on this forum. It is the one rule that I will enforce diligently. The Internet is full of unfocused, unmoderated message boards where you can post anything you want and flame to your heart's desire. This is not one of them. If you don't like the rules, then you don't have to visit this forum. |
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robbokop
United Kingdom
75 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 09:09:18
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Dave gave sound advice straight from the heart of Sarno and TMS theory. His comments always cut straight to the chase, are clear and reemphasize the theory in a way which I find most beneficial on this site. That is far more useful to me than an offensive rant directed at another person.
My mum was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. I believe she had a severe case of TMS although we didn't know that at the time when she was depressed(I hadn't heard of the theory then). She was suffering with many physical symptoms towards the end of her life and was very depressed to the point where she was totally numb mentally. In the last few weeks of her life, just looking at photos of our family, and me and my sister as kids would induce terrible stomach pains, dizziness etc in her. She repressed emotions all through her life to a very dangerous point and I believe that that her mental and physical state which led to her death were the result of that repression. It makes me really sad remembering this terribly dark time. Throughout her life, even in her happy years(which were many) I remember she sufferered physical pain symptoms and also vertigo etc. She was a lovely person, with a great gift for music and teaching and I wish she could have somehow exorcised the terrible inner demons wish she wasn't able to share. I miss her.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 09:33:55
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This forum exists due to Dave. It belongs to him. His work, his money, his time. Dave was kind enough to keep it alive after AustinGary got tired of the personal attacks similar to DizzyDave's and Laura's. You two have a missunderstanding of the fundamentals of how this works. This fourm is not sponsored by the government, the United Nations or God. Posting on this forum is analogous to being a guest in someone's house. Don't eat the food and then insult the host. If you don't like the rules here start your own Dizzy Web Site.
I hope Dave doesn't get discouraged by the outlandish personal attacks. I like a good row every now and then myself, keeps the blood flowing. I guess it exposes our inner-child. Maybe we can have a sub-forum called the TMS SOAP OPERA SITE. I don't care if you flame me or each other but Dave's the Boss. |
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dizzy dave
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 10:13:56
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All right, guys. My white flag is up. To tell you the truth I have been more confrontational as of late. Maybe it's my inner demons having a run at things. I think it may have a lot, actually, to do with writing here. It's ironic that lately I have been attacking the person who incidentally has helped me. That is, if you consider the "letting out" certain feelings a good thing. My whole life has been about being the moderator and suddenly I am the one who needs moderation. I suppose I would rather take the blunt end of the stick and not be dizzy rather than being the good guy with the spins.
Keeping true to the TMS theory, however, does include the topic of emotions. This is on topic and Dave, TennisTom, Stryder or anyone please help me understand how the discussion of emotions is off topic to the TMS theory and therefore should be avoided here on the forum? This, I promise, will be my last question posed about this. I am not sure if you comprehend my tone here, but I need to have finality regarding this and, as I said before, my white flag is up.
Dizzy
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sexual abuse? and TMS
