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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2005 : 10:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by dizzy dave
This is on topic and Dave, TennisTom, Stryder or anyone please help me understand how the discussion of emotions is off topic to the TMS theory and therefore should be avoided here on the forum?
I really have no idea where you got this idea. Emotions are of course relevant to TMS and have always been discussed on this forum. |
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 11:02:51
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Let me get this straight. We were having a conversation on this thread about sexual abuse. I was speaking to Logan and Renee and we were sharing our own personal stories about being molested as children. Someone mentioned EMDR and I responded the same way I always do, in a supportive and kind manner. I said that I'd heard about EMDR, knew of a therapist who practices EMDR, and showed empathy with regards to the sexual abuse. Dave took what I said and even brought up another thread I had started about "little crystals," and made it sound like I'm living in fantasy land and I am delusional. I think when you've got women having a discussion about being molested you've got wounds being opened up all over the place. To come on that particular thread and say what he said, in such a matter of fact, curt manner was akin to throwing salt in those wounds. It really struck a nerve with me. I'm human. I reacted and said what I said, partly because I felt he insulted me, partly because I believe he insulted the content of the thread, and partly because the comments he made to Dizzy Dave were still fresh in my mind and they had bothered me. (I still don't understand how you can tell someone that this forum is not about discussing emotional issues when emotional issues are at the very core of this forum.) Like someone else said, you can choose to answer the questions or not, no one was putting a gun to your head to make you respond to the questions Dizzy Dave had added. This forum isn't supposed to be about sports either but I've sure noticed a lot of threads on baseball throughout the entire forum.
And, Tom, I think I will look into starting our own "Dizzy forum." The whole reason I loved this forum is because I felt it was a place I was welcome to express myself without feeling judged. After this latest incident, I'm afraid to speak for fear of being either misconstrued or insulted. It almost reminds me of the home in which I grew up - "Children should be seen and not heard" being the motto. I was never free to express myself there without condemnation either.
Dizzy Dave, I'm with you. I'll look into starting a new forum. Anyone who would like to e-mail me to have further intelligent, open discussions on dizziness, EMDR, Louise Hay, or anything else for that matter, may do so at phototinter43@sbcglobal.net.
Adios!
Laura
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 11:43:55
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Hi Logan.
My son came home from school the other day telling me of a classmate of whom he is the lone confidant.He is considered 'weird' by all the other kids and is a bit of a pariah.He divulged to my boy,that His father raped and beat him repeatedly when he was younger.
He told my son that he used to hope that his father would kill him so it would end.He's 12 years old and already regrets surviving his father(who has since passed away).What do you say to a child like that?
After the astonishment wore off,I tried to fathom the amount of pain and suffering awaiting that child and it was beyond my comprehension.
I went through many a frustrated TMS day wondering if I were abused and could not recollect it.My sister WAS molested by my Nanny's husband and has a clear recollection of it(age 5-7).
However,now being a parent,I also realize there are things that occur in childhood that might be TMS creators that are NOT sexual or "abuse",but have the same sort of impact.They are obviously repressed or forgotten as I will explain.
When my first son was 3 or 4 I was tying his shoe and he lashed out and gouged my eyeball(in play)...my knee-jerk reaction was to slap back at him.Even in my pain and anguish,I was immediately ashamed of how I responded....I was on the phone trying to get a ride to the ER,he was crying and severly disturbed that I had exploded like vesuvius.
I went to the ER where they discovered that he had indeed gouged a piece of my eye out...had to wear a patch for about 3 days,totally blind due to the sympathetic reaction in the other eye(watery,irritated,etc.)...fortunately the eye is quite resilient.
Meanwhile,after the initial drama was over,I spent a long time apologizing to my son for slapping him....he meant no harm,and was really traumatized by the whole ordeal.His whole demeanor around me changed..I could sense his guilt every time he saw me in the patches....it was most DEfInitelY a big deal to him.
I was ashamed of how I had acted.I tried to talk about it with him,but it's hard to communicate with a small child.
2 years later he had little recollection of the episode.Now,aged 12,he remembers none...yet it has to be in there somewhere??
Any time my wife and I fight,I see the kids change and sort of guiltily skulk about,as if it's "their fault".We've discussed it at length,but you can't manipulate emotions and feelings like things in the tangible world.
I often wonder if a collection of these disturbances can cause just as much harm as a few super traumatic ones like physical or sexual abuse.When I went to Psychotherapy,I dislodged the furthest memories available to me and they were:
letting my uncle's parrot loose and getting in trouble
being chastised for urinating in public
getting in trouble for letting my neighbors flock of carrier pigeons loose(I must have a bird fetish)
My fathers funeral
My first fist fight(age 5)
getting sent home from parochial pre-school 'in trouble'
It would seem we only make imprints of the really bad stuff..I don't recall birthday parties,christmas or carnivals,though I know that I didn't have a 'bad' childhood...
anyways,just a thought.....If I was abused I think somewhere in that long list of self introspective works I would at least have found an echo or shadow of it.I have had a long history of TMS and related Mindbody problems,but in very un-dramatic fashion,I feel it is a collection of a multitude of incidents rather than a couple of Big deal ones like Sexual/Physical abuse.
When I have met or heard of people who have been abused,I always feel it is beyond my scope of ability to even discuss it,as I have no experience with which to compare....that in and of itself is a good 'reality check' when viewing ones own TMS symptoms and causes.
I hope you can uncover whatever it is that you are digging for...remember,it's not what you dig up,it's the digging which banishes the TMS.
peace
Baseball65 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 12:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Laura
Dave took what I said and even brought up another thread I had started about "little crystals," and made it sound like I'm living in fantasy land and I am delusional.
This interpretation is completely in your mind.
Good luck to you, I hope you find the forum you're looking for. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 12:49:08
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| Tennis Tom -- Right On! My sentiments exactly. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 13:01:52
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| I should add this....Regardless of one's thoughts concerning the effectiveness of EMDR, which, from my reading, has helped folks suffering from post traumatic syndromes, and may or may not help one to uncover repressed memories of traumatic incidents in a relatively speedy fashion (plus has been helpful for my cousin who is in therapy), folks posting on this site should understand that Dave is a thoughtful, helpful, thoroughly rational individual who knows TMS theory inside and out, and he deserves our respect and admiration rather than our knee-jerk explosive reactions. There is a time and place to let one's angry feelings out, but the time and place is not on this forum in the form of a personal attack. There is a big difference between helpful assertiveness and unhelpful aggressiveness. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 13:11:49
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| One last thing on EMDR. A web site that I really trust, which is www.quackwatch.org, speaks poorly of EMDR. It is on the list of mental health treatments to avoid. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 13:13:45
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| Dang it. My link didn't work due to the comma at the end. Let me try it again. www.quackwatch.org |
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 15:01:37
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I love people who say things who insult you and then tell you that your "interpretation" is "in your mind." That's funny! It seems like this is an epidemic in society. No one ever takes responsibility for what they do OR say.
You told Dizzy Dave "Emotions are, of course, relevant to TMS and have always been discussed on this forum." Really? On the thread where you and Dizzy Dave were discussing ending the questionnare, you said "This forum has never been about emotional support." Which one is it? I think they call that flip flopping.
Enough said!
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2005 : 15:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Laura
I love people who say things who insult you and then tell you that your "interpretation" is "in your mind." That's funny! It seems like this is an epidemic in society. No one ever takes responsibility for what they do OR say.
You told Dizzy Dave "Emotions are, of course, relevant to TMS and have always been discussed on this forum." Really? On the thread where you and Dizzy Dave were discussing ending the questionnare, you said "This forum has never been about emotional support." Which one is it? I think they call that flip flopping.
I didn't "say" anything. We have never spoken. You have chosen to infer (inaccurate) emotions from my written text.
It is true that this forum was never intended for emotional support. It was created by Gary to discuss TMS issues. Nevertheless I have never censored those discussions. I tend to let this forum go where its members choose to take it, and draw the line only at personal attacks and subjects that are way off topic.
A long time ago a group of people decided they didn't like Gary's policy and started their own forum. Perhaps you and Dizzy should do the same, so you can set your own rules. I'm done tolerating this nonsense, so please don't post any further personal attacks. |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 09:54:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Baseball65
anyways,just a thought.....If I was abused I think somewhere in that long list of self introspective works I would at least have found an echo or shadow of it.I have had a long history of TMS and related Mindbody problems,but in very un-dramatic fashion,I feel it is a collection of a multitude of incidents rather than a couple of Big deal ones like Sexual/Physical abuse.
Baseball,
Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply. I think you said it exactly, it's all those seemingly insignificant things that add up. Going over all my "stuff" this past week, trying to figure out what it was that sent me off the bronchitis/sinusitis cliff.
It's pretty obvious my big ticket item is rejection/abandonment, and I'm at a point in my pre-graduate school career where I could really use a mentor, and so far, the few professors that I've asked for guidance have been too busy to take a real interest in me or my writing. It's hard for me to take an interest in my own writing because I often feel like I have nothing worthwhile to say and no talent to say stuff with if I did, even though I know this is not objectively true.
Talking to my husband about whether or not I have "enough" remembered childhood trauma to make me feel as bad as I have lately, without the need for digging up more, I listed off a series of things that happened to me from ages 3 - 9.
Dad splitting in the middle of the night, mom telling me my days of being his spoiled brat were over, crappy babysitters and their pervy sons etc.
When taken singly none of them are really terrible, but when added up they form a picture of someone who was being rejected and abandoned on a regular basis.
I think the thing I have to do, like most other people, is to unlearn all those little lessons of "you're not good." I think so many of us who were raised by "traditional" parents from the pre psychologically aware days of yore have come through childhoods that are mined with 1000s of impressions that told us just that.
What you said about your son accidentally hurting your eye, and your reaction, and the aftermath, it's so true how these potentially damaging things come out of "nowhere". But at least you had the presence of mind to address it in the loving and conscious manner that you did.
I can think of several instances like that in my own life and the guilt I have towards my own parents, for hurting them or for making them so mad that they hurt themselves. Or how I felt responsible for my "daddy" leaving not just me, but all of us, or...it goes on.
I guess the thing I want to know now is HOW do I change the way I feel about myself as a grownup. How do I convince myself that I'm "good"? Did your therapist work with you on "inner child" stuff to help you get over that stuff? Did you feel therapy helped you to deal with life as a grownup rather than a child cowering in a grown up's body? Because that's how I feel. The key word being "cower."
Logan
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 12:37:46
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quote:
I guess the thing I want to know now is HOW do I change the way I feel about myself as a grownup. How do I convince myself that I'm "good"? Did your therapist work with you on "inner child" stuff to help you get over that stuff? Did you feel therapy helped you to deal with life as a grownup rather than a child cowering in a grown up's body? Because that's how I feel. The key word being "cower."
Hi Logan.
I'm not sure we ever 'deal' with anything...that's why we have all of our distractions like TMS,drug addictions,food..whatever...we are sort of conditioned to have an aversion to all unsavory emotions and feelings,and stuff like TMS is just a lid on the jar.
What I got out of therapy was a sort of Model of 'how' I got so far off center.It made sense,explains the TMS and every other problem along the way.
As far as feeling "good"...I don't wake up and go "God,it's really great to be me today!"....I know there are a lot of self-help type things out there,but I'm always a bit wary of them instigating a new conflict(conscious esteem papering over unconscious poverty)
I DO NOT believe in the inner child.
I believe in the OUTER ADULT!
"Adult" is some wallpaper we put over the shame, creativity and helplessness and sense of power we instinctively feel as children...and that's all any of us are.Children.TMS recovery is essentially a demolition job.....getting rid of all pretenses,usually only believed or worshipped by ourselves in the first place.
Children Cower....it's part of being inside of a world we can not control.Adults have 'anxiety'...that is having the same exact fear,but an inability to feel,express or discuss it.
The Adult-child thing is no metaphor...it's the God's honest truth.I meet people every day with the overt tendencies of 4 year olds who are driving cars,drinking alcohol legally,running corporations and governing sovereign nations.
The good thing about never groing up is never being ashamed about a new lesson one has to learn....adults are supposed to know everything and have stuff "under control"...they are rock solid,have unflinching integrity,are successful in all endeavors and can fix everything.They are independent,forthright,clear-thinking and powerful.
I have heard about adults,and I hope I never become one....they never get to have any fun either!They're too busy planning careers and vacations from their careers.
I've also never felt good.Once I saw my own predicament in a clearer light,I saw I was the normal,the average the mean....
The opposite of Low self esteem is NOT self esteem...it is NO esteem...not in an iconoclastic negative sort of way,but in a non-judgemental,loving realization that there are no distinctions between good and bad...only perceptions.
It's sort of like the Socratic idea of the ridiculousness of our pomp.We can only begin to understand after we realize we are unable to understand.Good and Bad definitely have parameters,but for us to decipher them or god forbid,label ourselves with them is to venture into the metaphysical plane and ascribe divine judgement to our long list of credentials.
If you move towards the center,you'll find you have no self esteem.....and than,paradoxically...you'll usually feel pretty good!
sort of circular,but than again,I might have a new lesson to learn today.
peace
Baseball65 |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 09:11:37
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Thanks Baseball,
If there's anything I know, it's that I don't know anything. I've always thought Socrates got that one right.
I've also always suspected that people who act like grownups are doing exactly that, acting. I think I'll start honing my acting techniques for when I need to appear like a bona fide grownup. The rest of the time, I'll just chill.
Logan |
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dizzy dave
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 12:58:21
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Children Cower.... its part of being inside of a world we cannot control. Adults have 'anxiety'...that is having the same exact fear, but an inability to feel, express or discuss it.
Baseball,
After having read your entire response I was floored. The quote above actually has clarified a lot for me. Thank you. I can't imagine myself having the type of understanding about such matters with the ability to write them down so clearly. It so happens that I was also the unwanted, kicked to the curb little boy who was so unloved and made to believe to be so bad that I didn't have much of a choice but to play the part. I couldn't have agreed more about everything you wrote about. It is true.
By the way, I have printed out the above quote and posted it in my office at the front of my store. Not only will it serve as a reminder in my life, but perhaps a fortunate few will take a minute to read it and think about its meaning.
Dizzy Dave
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2005 : 18:25:45
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Just curious, did any of you see Oprah Winfrey today? She had a young woman on there who had been sexually molested (get this) by her Grandmother. All this time I thought I was alone in this and now I'm seeing more people who have had the same experience. Anyway, this girl was molested since the age of seven and as she got a little older, she began "cutting" herself. She would cut herself and then put blood on everything that was white. She said this was because she wanted to make the white (pure) things unpure, which is how she felt on the inside. She also said that when she cut herself, she didn't even feel the pain. It was very bizarre.
Laura
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polly
127 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2005 : 08:31:17
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Polly,
I did see this program. I always walk a fine line between the expolitation of these subjects on TV and the good they can do. I also don't know if they trigger bad feelings or help people realize they're not alone.
I completely understand the concept of self mutilation. I've been spared acting it out, but it makes sense to me. Isn't TMS a form or this? Before knowing about TMS, I thought that I owned and deserved the pain. I'm coming out of a long fog now and it feels good. My goal is to get completely better and help others. Nothing else makes sense to me.
Polly |
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2005 : 18:52:44
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Polly,
Maybe you're right. Maybe TMS is a form of this. I certainly could see myself inflicting this physical crap on myself to punish myself that's for sure. I found that show quite eye opening. It was interesting how they said that when someone has molested you, the repercussions last a lifetime and the damage is unfathomable. It is interesting how so many TMS patients were molested. Maybe on some level people really do want to punish themselves and people do need their pain. Who wouldn't repress molestation, you know? People bury it so deep that sometimes they don't even remember it. I don't know if I'll ever fully deal with what happened to me, but every time I go on here and start talking about it the room starts to spin!
Laura
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polly
127 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2005 : 10:13:31
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Laura,
When the room starts spinning, take it for a ride and enjoy it. I know that sounds simple and dumb, but I have always found that deciding I was in control of this stuff got me through.
When I first read MBP and got to the chapter about the woman who had repressed her memories on sexual abuse, I had a melt down. I had a gym in my house with a punching bag and boxing gloves. I kept those gloves on for 3 days, cried constantly and punched for 72 hrs. Aside from the pain I already had, I developed the worst hand pain and numbness. I kept punching through it. It was probably the most productive psychological 3 days I've ever spent.
We'll always have this issue to deal with. It can either cripple us or make us stronger. I'm now dealing, for the final time, with a brother who thinks that this is something that he can use to jab at me and make fun of. I sent him a closure letter yesterday that my husband begged me not to send. I feel great. I really believe that it is the circumstances that surround the incident that we have to deal with. My brother is now dealt with. He can't hurt me anymore now. I truly feel sorry for him. It's a big step. I got sick of him making me feel sorry for myself.
Hope you have a wonderful day,
Polly
I no longer want to be the person that had that happen. I want to be the one that got through it. |
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sexual abuse? and TMS
