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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2013 : 11:34:23
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Just a query about when symptoms seem to be getting worse and fitting in with a structural/physical explanation.
I have been diagnosed by various osteos/chiros with all the usual suspects for lower back pain, sciatica and leg pain such as a twisted/tilted pelvis, leg length discrepancy, SI joint dysfunction and piriformis syndrome etc. With this in mind I have also been diagnosed by a Sirpa practioner in the UK with TMS/stress illness.
I have been in discomfort with my symptoms for about 3 years and whilst they do wax and wane they do seem to have been more constant over the last 6 months or so...it is also noticeable that the intensity of the symptoms have increased and they are now causing me far more pain.
During the period of my back pain I have always remained active and have run half marathons and the like...I have always been able to ignore the discomfort as it often used to seem to disappear to a degree when running. Over the last couple of weeks this has changed totally in that when I run my back pain stays with me and my quad muscles start to ache intensely and almost lock up even after running for just a mile or 2, this pain will then last for a day or 2 before it clears, it almost feels like the muscle is fatiguing far far earlier than it should...this is frustrating to me and gives me the indication that something is progressively getting worse.
I just wanted some thoughts on this really. Is it normal for TMS to get worse over a lengthy period of time? My situation is that I totally buy into the TMS concept and theory and it all fits me BUT I do remain totally unable to banish the thoughts and subsequent fears that something structural/physical is going on. The fact that things seem to be getting progressively worse seems to back this up...just wondering if this still fits in with the TMS explanation.
Thanks.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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icelikeaninja
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 16:12:00
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I hate when people don't reply to posts after they have been up for awhile lol. Yea I said it, all my repressed rage is because of this forum! Honestly I think its because alot of people have asked this question in the past.
TMS has all sorts of tricks up its sleeve. Sarno mentions that symptoms will probably get worse before they get better. The goal of the unconcious is to try and keep you thinking about the pain rather than the mind.
I remained active when I had tms back and rib pain. I did it to prove that I cannot get any worse than I already was.
My symptoms were a few years as well. |
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Aussie
Australia
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 16:19:17
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| While you remain totally unable to banish fears that there may be a physical issue, the Tms has its strategy of keeping you focused on the body and more importantly in fear. The fear is the lifeblood of Tms. You can't just think the fear away or hope it will disappear on its own. I did that for too long and it doesn't work. Look more into accepting and not fighting. There is much on this these days. |
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icelikeaninja
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 17:15:57
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Ya see this forum has changed a lot through the years. I just remember stryder, Tt, la kev.
Back when I first came here it was still a new site. Fear wasn't spoken of so much, as people healed themselves they came to realize that the last peg of their journey did not have fear which lead to symptom resolution .. Eventually.
Don't count the days. Work with a Tms therapist if you can even if its once a month. It really is worth it to talk to someone who compares patients and sees all the common factors that lead to Tms. My therapist agreed that I shared many common traits with her other clients.
It almost seems Tms is to good to be true. |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 16:21:06
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Thanks for the replies guys
Yep, I totally understand it has to be a 100% belief in the TMS diagnosis in order to recover and I also am aware I haven't reached this point.
As mentioned the worsening of the symptoms is the main stumbling block for me at this moment in time as this does of course fit in with a structural explanation...you carry on training/remaining active with an injury then it is of course highly probable that the symptoms will get worse.
As mentioned I have been diagnosed with all the usual suspects for lower back/buttock and leg pain such as SI Joint Dysfunction, twisted pelvis etc etc and I think these diagnoses have placed a huge nocebo in me.
I had a period of chest pain which became chronic a few years back and looking back I'm sure this was TMS...I managed to eradicate this symptom by finally accepting it was a manifestation of physical anxiety (TMS in my book) but I always felt in the back of my mind that it was always a stress/anxiety response and I'm sure this is what helped me beat it. The problem with the back pain etc I'm having is that the syroms are getting worse, especially when I run etc and more tellingly in many ways I just don't have that same feeling tucked away within me that this is a stress illness/TMS symptom...rather the underlying feeling is that it is physical and try as I might I just cannot move past this point. Highly frustrating.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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icelikeaninja
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 18:08:42
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I had chest pain diagnosed as chostochondritis for three years no relief from pain. Dr Sarno said it was Tms. I wished at the time my pains then were back pain because he rarely mentions rib and chest pain.
So in essence based on all the " back" people on here you shall be healed if you work on it.
I met Sarno and attended his meetings at one point. Go to therapy, i know I have to go back and I've conquered many things. Stomach flu, chest pain, neck pain, hip pain, chronic pink eye, inflammed sweat glands with one requiring removal.
Most of my conditions are like no others on the board yet I accepted and go better. Who has pink eye for three months? Who has painful lumps under their armpits? Your diagnosis is a piece of cake because there are tons of stories on here w your same exact symptoms .
Luckily Sarno spoke me through all these things. I just wish he was a little younger and still practicing. Dr. Rashbaum is cool but I don't know him as well and have a hard time accepting what he tells me about my situation.
Don't look up symptoms either. |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 00:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by icelikeaninja
I had chest pain diagnosed as chostochondritis for three years no relief from pain. Dr Sarno said it was Tms. I wished at the time my pains then were back pain because he rarely mentions rib and chest pain.
So in essence based on all the " back" people on here you shall be healed if you work on it.
I met Sarno and attended his meetings at one point. Go to therapy, i know I have to go back and I've conquered many things. Stomach flu, chest pain, neck pain, hip pain, chronic pink eye, inflammed sweat glands with one requiring removal.
Most of my conditions are like no others on the board yet I accepted and go better. Who has pink eye for three months? Who has painful lumps under their armpits? Your diagnosis is a piece of cake because there are tons of stories on here w your same exact symptoms .
Luckily Sarno spoke me through all these things. I just wish he was a little younger and still practicing. Dr. Rashbaum is cool but I don't know him as well and have a hard time accepting what he tells me about my situation.
Don't look up symptoms either.
Cheers for the reply.
One thing that struck me was that I had the EXACT same thought process when I had the chest pain. I read Healing Back Pain and fitted all the TMS stuff to a T and thought in all probability my pain was stress based/TMS but I also found myself wishing that I had back pain as it would make the TMS diagnosis so much more logical and easier to accept...well, you get what you wish for and now I have the bloody back pain it's actually far far harder for me to accept...go figure hey.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 06:57:45
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Ha, I belonged to the "Chest Club" too, and found no mention of symptoms in the various books. In fact, it was "Ice's" brief mention of years ago that I found about the only mention on this forum.
However, with a little knowledge of anatomy I discovered that chest pain was caused by back pain, caused by tense muscles, and sure enough....
We should all get chest medals. 
Pan, as far as your symptoms getting worse over a period of time, is something eating away at you over this period of time? Is your fear of the fear of it getting worse eating away at you?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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icelikeaninja
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 09:17:26
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This is very interesting because my rib pains had no signs of back pain until later on.
What is interesting about my current groin and pelvis pain was that lower back pain was the last symptom to develop.
When I lay a certain way I feel it more than others. I did not put the back pain and the front pain together. I am certain those back nerves serve something in that area. cool beans.
It's not to good to be true its all tms people lol |
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icelikeaninja
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 10:18:36
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also I might ad that I have googled symptoms many times and concluded I was the "rare" person to get these outcomes with what I had. So don't google and don't go on healthboards lol
So for instance, I had those lumps under my arm pits. Called hydrodenitis. Nobody knows what causes them, most thing autoimmune. When my doctor cut one out of me literally the next week I got 4 more under the other armpit! I looked up all these symptoms and if you google images of this thing you will see people who have had sections and pieces of their bodies cut off! I treated it with salt bathes just to bring them down but ultimately knew they were from tms.
Another thing that happened to me since I was 17 was I'd get stomach problems two or three times a year. I'd vomit violently, hallucinate, for days at a time. But when I had the chronic pains, guess what? None of those things happened to me within a span of maybe 4 years lol
I must admit the hydro thing scared me the most because it seemed autoimmune and 4 of them is alot to get in one week.
It only isnt until now that I am slowly getting the relief after three months. It feels amazing to have cracks of light come through the clouds.
I like documenting alot of things on here because it certainly could help someone in the future.
One sad part about Dr.Sarno retiring and getting older is that I am sad to say the tms and his spark might leave with him. I know what I had is TMS but it would be nice to speak to someone who had 40 plus years diagnosing it. |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 12:41:04
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Thanks for the replies. I am no stranger to the concept of somatisation and this led me developing a severe case of health anxiety about 5 years ago...I did manage to get this under control to a huge extent but I suppose this latest fixation on my back pain is pretty much another manifestation of this.
What is interesting about the chest pain is that all the while I had this I was very fearful and always catastrophised it to lung cancer and the like BUT, and this I believe is a massive but I always had an instinctive feeling that the chest pain was a result of stress/anxiety/TMS, it was almost like I knew this on an unconscious level and I believe that this is what enabled me to beat that pain. With the back, leg pain etc I'm currently suffering from I don't have that feeling...it's almost like the total opposite whereas I want it to be stress/anxiety/TMS causality BUT my unconcious level refuses to buy into it this time...it's like on a deep level I'm being told this time it is structural.
I do feel that I'm suffering from a huge amount of nocebo with all of this in that I had visited chiros/osteos etc who all installed the structural diagnosis in me...when I have my pain now I actually have a mind picture of my SI joints rubbing together or of muscles, tendons and ligaments all pulling my pelvis out of alignment etc. I'm finding this conditioning very hard to defeat.
Anyway, thanks for reading and for all,your valued input.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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icelikeaninja
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 14:57:47
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| Sarno had a woman at his lectures who had no cartilage in her left knee and was pain free . That's saying something |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 13:19:38
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quote:
Originally posted by pan
Just a query about when symptoms seem to be getting worse and fitting in with a structural/physical explanation.
I have been diagnosed by various osteos/chiros with all the usual suspects for lower back pain, sciatica and leg pain such as a twisted/tilted pelvis, leg length discrepancy, SI joint dysfunction and piriformis syndrome etc. With this in mind I have also been diagnosed by a Sirpa practioner in the UK with TMS/stress illness.
I have been in discomfort with my symptoms for about 3 years and whilst they do wax and wane they do seem to have been more constant over the last 6 months or so...it is also noticeable that the intensity of the symptoms have increased and they are now causing me far more pain.
During the period of my back pain I have always remained active and have run half marathons and the like...I have always been able to ignore the discomfort as it often used to seem to disappear to a degree when running. Over the last couple of weeks this has changed totally in that when I run my back pain stays with me and my quad muscles start to ache intensely and almost lock up even after running for just a mile or 2, this pain will then last for a day or 2 before it clears, it almost feels like the muscle is fatiguing far far earlier than it should...this is frustrating to me and gives me the indication that something is progressively getting worse.
I just wanted some thoughts on this really. Is it normal for TMS to get worse over a lengthy period of time? My situation is that I totally buy into the TMS concept and theory and it all fits me BUT I do remain totally unable to banish the thoughts and subsequent fears that something structural/physical is going on. The fact that things seem to be getting progressively worse seems to back this up...just wondering if this still fits in with the TMS explanation.
Thanks.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
I had a long angry rant against chiros and the medical profession in general up here last night, but took it down. Too negative. I found that the symptoms grew worse because the longer they went on the longer the FEAR OF THE FEAR of the symptoms went on and were magnified, creating real physiological changes: muscle atrophy, joint stiffness, tendon shorting, you name it. Each physical change increased the pain and increased the fear of the fear.
Taking the first step into the fear of the fear is the begining (and hopefully not long) journey to the cure. Things need to be loosened, and if we are afraid of the fear of what that feels like, we get nowhere.
Pan, aren't you the same "Pan" who told me to go to this site from an anxiety site bout four years back? I was under "NeverAgain1" there.
If not, sorry for the mix up.
Stay away from the chiros, especially. They should be strung up by what's hanging from the end of their subluxated spines. Hoodoo would be more helpful.
You have it within you to get better. The fear is not unconscious but conscious.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 06/26/2013 13:22:08 |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 13:42:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
quote:
Originally posted by pan
Just a query about when symptoms seem to be getting worse and fitting in with a structural/physical explanation.
I have been diagnosed by various osteos/chiros with all the usual suspects for lower back pain, sciatica and leg pain such as a twisted/tilted pelvis, leg length discrepancy, SI joint dysfunction and piriformis syndrome etc. With this in mind I have also been diagnosed by a Sirpa practioner in the UK with TMS/stress illness.
I have been in discomfort with my symptoms for about 3 years and whilst they do wax and wane they do seem to have been more constant over the last 6 months or so...it is also noticeable that the intensity of the symptoms have increased and they are now causing me far more pain.
During the period of my back pain I have always remained active and have run half marathons and the like...I have always been able to ignore the discomfort as it often used to seem to disappear to a degree when running. Over the last couple of weeks this has changed totally in that when I run my back pain stays with me and my quad muscles start to ache intensely and almost lock up even after running for just a mile or 2, this pain will then last for a day or 2 before it clears, it almost feels like the muscle is fatiguing far far earlier than it should...this is frustrating to me and gives me the indication that something is progressively getting worse.
I just wanted some thoughts on this really. Is it normal for TMS to get worse over a lengthy period of time? My situation is that I totally buy into the TMS concept and theory and it all fits me BUT I do remain totally unable to banish the thoughts and subsequent fears that something structural/physical is going on. The fact that things seem to be getting progressively worse seems to back this up...just wondering if this still fits in with the TMS explanation.
Thanks.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
I had a long angry rant against chiros and the medical profession in general up here last night, but took it down. Too negative. I found that the symptoms grew worse because the longer they went on the longer the FEAR OF THE FEAR of the symptoms went on and were magnified, creating real physiological changes: muscle atrophy, joint stiffness, tendon shorting, you name it. Each physical change increased the pain and increased the fear of the fear.
Taking the first step into the fear of the fear is the begining (and hopefully not long) journey to the cure. Things need to be loosened, and if we are afraid of the fear of what that feels like, we get nowhere.
Pan, aren't you the same "Pan" who told me to go to this site from an anxiety site bout four years back? I was under "NeverAgain1" there.
If not, sorry for the mix up.
Stay away from the chiros, especially. They should be strung up by what's hanging from the end of their subluxated spines. Hoodoo would be more helpful.
You have it within you to get better. The fear is not unconscious but conscious.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
Yep...that'll be me. I was a mod on Anxiety Zone back in the day.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 15:51:44
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Well, then, Pan, I owe you.
Had I not gotten here, I would....well, I do not think I would be alive. Not bluffing.
Let me tell you the image burned in my mind: that of a thoracic herniated disc, T-7/8. I was refused treatment by doctors, told I would eventually be paralyzed, pee on the floor, etc.. Not ONE doctor read the transcript of the MRI correctly, but looked at the image -- as did I-- and told me I was hopeless and I had to learn to live with the pain. The chiro was especially bad, but no point in dragging a stupid profession into the discussion. I went out of ignorance and fear: I had no idea what type of doctor he was. Basically, the transcript said that I had a disc that was just sitting there and not interfering with any nerves and not blocking any never conductors and was not touching my spinal cord. Not one read it, until I made my new PCP, a DO, read it again, slowly. Then he agreed that the symptoms did not match the pathology. I had to learn what all the medical mumbo jumbo meant myself, before I could ask him to read it, really read it.
So my symptoms got worse, I became a near cripple, but still things did not make sense: I could bend and touch my toes; I could lift heavy objects; I could lift weights; I could even jog/run, even though by this time I was in horrific pain because my entire back was in spasm and it effected my entire torso. That image was hard to erase. Time goes along, and then I am re-reading MBP and my focus is on my shoulder. Wait a friggin minute: my shoulder? I have a back problem, so I was told, over and over and over. Now my back is not bad but it is my shoulder.
Of course the only thing bad was my fear, but my fear of my fear and condition.
More resolution came when I went to a experienced medical massage therapist, who saw me right after a doc in the next office said my pelvis was tilted and my leg was short. She chuckled. That was because nearly everybody she saw had the same thing. She explained muscles and referred pain to me and told me I was nothing special. Imagine that: I with my big T/7-8 was nothing special. My traps were tight and so was my neck and those muscles.
Doctors today -- almost all-- have very little clinical knowledge about the muscular and skeletal system and the very typical muscles that react first to stress. Dr. Sarno was a clinical doc with tons of experience, so when he told a patient that his shorter leg meant nothing he was believed. Doctors today, who do not have that type of experience, but rely on MRI and imaging (and do not even read the transcripts) cannot help but keep doubt going.
Now I am confident that you will start thinking and feeling right. You set me on the right path. You will get back on that path.
Thank you.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 16:11:15
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I know what you mean by getting negative conditioning and nocebo by the medical community.
I remember one of the first osteopaths I visited a couple of years ago. I went to see her and told her that I thought my issue was psychosomatic and not structural and just wanted her opinion. Looking back I was setting myself up for a massive fall...what the heck did I expect a bloody osteopath to find wrong with me??
Anyway, after her examination she took huge delight in informing me that my problem was indeed structural and that my pain was plainly caused by a combination of a twisted/tilted pelvis and SI joint dysfunction..I actually recall asking her if this was serious and she actually looked me in the eye and told me that she had seen people end up in wheelchairs due to it.
This experience has really stuck with me and even though my TMS/stress illness specialist has attempted to counter this with the anti structuralist viewpoint it has become so deeply ingrained the physical/structural fear is very powerful. It's funny and terrifying how tall and powerful oak trees grow from such tiny acorns.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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Question about Symptoms Worsening.
