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dgreen97
122 Posts |
 Posted - 05/15/2013 : 18:13:03
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When trying to come off SSRI medications like Paxil or cymbalta, is it common to feel symptoms become worse during this period? I started taking paxil in feb 2010, this was way before I knew anything about TMS, and I finally stopped taking that 4-5 months ago. I then switched to cymbalta which I was on for 3 months but I didn't see any benefit either in my anxiety and obviously not my pain. Im now trying to axe SSRI medications from my life completely but since I've been trying to get off cymbalta I've noticed my eye symptoms getting worse, some feelings of anxiety and tenseness getting more aggravated at times, and just feeling like a rollercoaster. I can feel a little better one day and the next feels like I've made no progress at all.
I dont want to write to get scared about all of the bad things associated with SSRIs or anything, or symptoms of withdrawal, I just wanted to get your opinion on if this is common to see when stopping these medications. What Im trying to do is not mask the anxiety anymore with a drug. I'm trying to treat the root cause of it, get more in touch with my emotions, etc. I noticed in the past 3 years when I was on these drugs that I didn't really "feel" anything if that makes sense. I felt dead to the world emotionally and it would get worse the higher the dose of the drug I took. I remember going from 10mg of paxil to 20mg and 30mg, and I felt completely washed out. I didn't really give a **** about anything.
Learning about TMS for a while now I've noticed something about myself. I don't really feel emotions very much in the sense that a lot of people talk about. My day to day life is my concern with pain. I rarely cry (only on certain days when Im so sick of the pain I can't take it anymore), I don't really have reactions to things emotionally. My son is being born next week and I feel no emotions towards it whatsoever. In fact the only thing I've felt towards it has been fear of the stress of dealing with taking care of a kid making my pain worse.
The whole reason I began taking paxil in feb 2010 was when I had an anxiety attack. I was at work and I started feeling that "heart drop" sensation where I became really scared. I had never worked full time before and feb 2010 was when I was going to begin putting in 40 hours a week. To tell you the truth it scared the hell out of me because it was that transition from being in college and part time to being full time and working 40 hours a week. I had already been in pain for over a year by this point with my eyes and had foot pain for 3 and a half years already.
When I felt that heart drop sensation, I went to the doctor and got on paxil. Later on I started taking klonopin in very small doses each day. My dose is only 0.5mg and most of the time I take half that each day because I dont want to get addicted. Again please don't tell me the bad things about these drugs because it will just scare the **** out of me.
I've talked to a lot of people though about this, SteveO being a large percentage of that, and the thing is Im not feeling emotions anymore because something is going on subconsciously. I think I should be excited about having a son but I have no emotions towards it at all. My life feels drab every day like I dont give a damn about anything and I'm not sure what to do about it. The first step is trying to get off of these drugs which I think are suppressing my emotions. I'm trying to treat my anxiety sensations naturally with deep relaxation each day, changes in diet, more exercise etc. as well as exploring my emotions.
Sorry for long post just lot to talk about here.
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 18:38:54
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| Emotional blunting is a reasonably common side effect of SSRIs and benzos. I have witnessed it in a family member for SSRIs and experienced it myself on benzos. Caveat I am not a doctor. PS Google Paulina Porzikova (the supermodel) this was her experience on an SSRI. |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 18:39:30
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dgreen97. Around 50% of people on SSRIs experience emotional dulling as a result of the drug. Before going on it, they may have experienced emotional overwhelm, or maybe even dulling as a coping mechanism- but there is a chemical action of the drug which can result in emotional dulling, even for people in 'well-person studies' who have no background with emotional distress. So, this may be a large part of what is going on in regards to not feeling anything about the birth of your child. And yes, i have seen clients experience odd pains as a result of going on an SSRI (pain which didnt exist before) and when coming off an SSRI. The real key, if you want to come off, is to take a very conservative approach, ie. slow and steady- dont rush it. An excellent guide to withdrawal is:- The Harm Reduction Guide to Coming off Psychiatric Drugs, published by the Icarus Project and the Freedom Centre (www.comingoff.com)
James |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 22:16:41
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Thats interesting that SSRIs cause emotional blunting. It literally feels like I dont care about much of anything really when I know I used to.
PSPA are you off benzos now?
Dr. Alexander, I just began reading your book may take me a while. To tell you the truth since I started coming off of cymbalta on April 26th I've had more worse days than good days and it has scared me. For instance right now the pain is bad for no obvious reason in my eyes and it felt like it has gotten worse since I stopped taking cymbalta 3 days ago on mothers day. I was going on and off each day since april 26th and then started doing every 2 days, now its been 3 days since I last took it. I feel like maybe this time is being a little more difficult because when I switched to cymbalta I transitioned from paxil to cymbalta so I was taking both at the same time and then I phased paxil out. I've heard that taking prozac, or maybe even paxil, for 2 weeks as a transition drug again to get off cymbalta this time may help.
Im going to check out the comingoff.com website for more info too. I think the drugs have done a disservice to me because for as long as I can remember I have had problems showing emotion and these drugs further entrenched me in that. I was at my psychotherapist yesterday and one thing really struck me hard when I was talking to her.
I usually dont cry but she asked me if I had any friends in my support network. My response was no I dont my only friend is my brother and i instantly started to tear up. It was something that I usually dont experience because I dont show emotion hardly ever. Today I shared this with my wife and again I teared up and I could barely speak. No joke I sat there and tried to get the words out but was having a lot of trouble with it. For a long time I couldn't see what people were talking about when they said "the pain is caused by unconscious repressed emotion" but now I'm at least getting a glimpse of what I'm repressing. I think Im doing the right thing getting off of the SSRIs because I dont want to mask my emotions anymore I think this just creates an outlet for these emotions in my body... in my case my eyes.
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NextAdventure
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2013 : 06:50:27
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Depending on your genetics coming off benzos, alcohol or SSRI’s can be problem free or a real challenge. In addition to over 150 listed possible withdrawal symptoms it is very common to have the reason you took them for get worse. In spite of the fact that doctors hand these powerful drugs out without reservation most have no training in titration off or withdrawal management.
I suggest you visit PaxilProgress.com or Surviving Antidepressants. These people have extensive knowledge on the process.
The cruel joke is that psychiatric drugs never cure anything while they are making profound changes to the neurology and have body wide impacts. |
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NextAdventure
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2013 : 06:56:39
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| I forgot to mention that some sensitive people need to take months to over a year to come off SSRI’s and other psyche drugs. They use a water titration method and make miniscule cuts each day so as not to shock the nervous system. If the withdrawal starts getting out of control you need to get back on a full dose, stabilize and then do a long titration off. Allowing a a florid withdrawal to begin can make it very hard to get control again. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2013 : 08:36:11
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| Dgreen97: yes, I have been benzo/psych drug free since December 2007, after being on klonopin for 10 years or so. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2013 : 08:53:16
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Welcome back to the forum Ric, Next Adventure, All1Spirit,
How are things going for you these days? As a med-professional, what are your views on the Good Doctors's theory these days? Have they evolved at all since you last visited here?
I'd been meaning to ask you, since the Rahe-Holmes list of stressors is somewhat dated, do you have a more current list of more modern stressful life situations, that cause TMS?
Welcome back to the Forum,
tt/lsmft
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2013 : 10:56:30
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quote:
Im now trying to axe SSRI medications from my life completely but since I've been trying to get off cymbalta I've noticed my eye symptoms getting worse, some feelings of anxiety and tenseness getting more aggravated at times, and just feeling like a rollercoaster. I can feel a little better one day and the next feels like I've made no progress at all.
I dont want to write to get scared about all of the bad things associated with SSRIs or anything, or symptoms of withdrawal, I just wanted to get your opinion on if this is common to see when stopping these medications.
I'm going to be radical here, but wanting to be free of medications once you have decided that your problems are psychogenic, for some people, is another form of self-flagellation, in my opinion.
It is usually better to try to do one thing at a time, same as in life. Multi-tasking is a 20th Century invention created by pundits who believe you can reach out with arms you don't have to do things that "should" be done the day before yesterday. Medications have their place, and when you are finished with them you are finished. You will know it. Trying to digest all the information of the TMS/anxiety/fear/soul searching/daily stresses and cope with pain and other things, while deciding that medication is no longer valid, creates more stress, in my opinion.
Regarding all the withdrawals, remember if you go to the various sites about medication reactions and withdrawals, those who post are self-selected, and, if you read closely, they are having anxiety still and seem to have "addiction" problems and not "dependency" issues. It could be benzos and it could be Cymbalta or booze or eating ice cream. The ones who have no problems with either addiction or dependence usually do not post about it. Personally, I was on Cymbalta twice. The first time, after taking it for about two months, I decided to quit after reading about all the side effects and horrible withdrawal problems, and had all sorts of symptoms. The second time I was on it for a much longer time and, with a clearer mind, and decided to stop because I could calmly decide that it was having no effect, I tapered for about a month, then found I was forgetting my taper amount and ended it. No withdrawal symptoms.
Once you read or even hear about all these withdrawal or dependence problems, you begin to ruminate about them and it can become self-fulfilling. It can be the equivalent of pain and anxiety, one more thing to distract and create fear.
I'm no doctor of course, and if meds are really ripping you up, then by all means, do what you have to do. But prior to pyshco multi-tasking, think if it is really the meds or your reaction to the thought of being dependent on them and not having control.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2013 : 17:33:02
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I have been on Citalopram for around a year and kicked it radically some 8 years ago. I took it for mild depression and anxiety. I recognize the emotional blunting very strongly. I don't advise to stop at once, I had quite a hard time of heavy sweating, emotional swings and months of itching at night. If you decide to stop, do it slowly. I stopped radically because I was fed up with the side effects (sweating, weight gain, emotional bluntness, decreased sexual drive, etc.), but if I had to do it again I would have slowly decreased the dose over a period of weeks or even months.
Good luck with your decision
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2013 : 17:47:50
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Unfortunately, not much is clear about psych drugs- both going on to them and coming off them. It is pretty much a trial and error process, complicated by individual genetics, sensitivity of one's nervous system etc. The water is even more muddied by the fact that nocebo effects happen with drugs (both going on and coming off), ie. our expectations about the side effects of a drug can induce the side effects, even when research subjects have been placed on an inert placebo. And there is no reason to suspect this cannot also happen in regards to coming off. If we start the process with the worst expectations for withdrawal effects, then this can perhaps help to induce some withdrawal effects. Complicated of course because for some people, the chemical changes really will induce withdrawal effects (beyond a nocebo effect)- and i dont think there is a way of differentiating these- Rik? As such, the advice provided by psychiatrist Peter Breggin is to be conservative (as we dont know if any particular individual will cope with a rapid withdrawal or needs a very slow one- the best guide is your previous experiences). He suggests the 10% method, ie., reducing by 10% each 7-10 days of feeling stable after a reduction. This may take months to achieve cessation, but there are no medals awarded for getting off them fast- but speedy withdrawal can cause terrible withdrawal effects, which then makes the person phobic about the prospect of living without the drugs; and can fool them into believing that this is what life is like without the drug, so they really must need to be on it. During the withdrawal process, the most important thing is to listen to your body/mind and only reduce further when you feel confident and ready to do so. Its also really important that you own the decision to withdraw- it must be yours. And be aware that the reason why you initially went onto the drug may still be there- not necessarily though, as many prescriptions of psych drugs is for situational problems which change with time- see my blog 'Over diagnosis of depression' on http://drjamespsychologist-com.webs.com/apps/blog/
You may need to be willing to deal with the initial problem, especially if it is long term and/or based on historical issues such as trauma. However, on the plus side, my personal view is that people are more able to work out issues or what to do about them with a mind/brain that is unhindered by chemicals, recreational or prescription. But, essentially, i am a civil libertarian who supports anyone's right to use any substance they choose as long as it is based on informed consent, and harms no one else.
James |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2013 : 15:12:42
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quote:
Once you read or even hear about all these withdrawal or dependence problems, you begin to ruminate about them and it can become self-fulfilling. It can be the equivalent of pain and anxiety, one more thing to distract and create fear.
I'm no doctor of course, and if meds are really ripping you up, then by all means, do what you have to do. But prior to pyshco multi-tasking, think if it is really the meds or your reaction to the thought of being dependent on them and not having control.
This is exactly why I didn't look up the symptoms of withdrawal from cymbalta. i knew that if i looked at those and started fearing them there was a good chance i would start exhibiting them because of that fear. the reason i want to come off the drugs is because they dont help me with my obsessions or my fears about the pain or anything else in life. all they really do is reduce the symptoms of anxiety like the panic feeling in the chest, stomach churning etc. at least for me. i ruminate constantly even when i was taking the drug. i chose to stop because it was making me emotionally numb, i had a suspicion that my brain could be using pain as an outlet in my body instead of the usual anxiety sensations.
the pulling/tightness sensation in my eyes has gotten worse over the last 2 weeks and it usually wasn't this bad before. i could say this is because of a couple things:
1. i got off the medication or should I say the SSRI type of medication I had been taking for 3 years. my body could be reacting to that.
2. i could have subconscious stress about my son being born next week. i dont think about it and stress out about it conciously but i think something is there because i feared having a child due to the pain ive been in for the past 8 years.
3. normal everyday stress and work stress
its really hard to say whether this is withdrawal that im feeling which is making my eye tension worse or if its the other stress. im wondering if you guys have any feedback on this. in the past my eye strain/tension has gotten worse the closer i got to an event i was afraid of. for instance, if i had to go to a social event or something around a week before that i would start experiencing flareups in pain that i normally didnt have and maybe thats what is happening now.
yes im kind of scared that coming off the medication made my eyes feel worse but what would be the reasoning behind that? could it be that my body is seeking equilibrium again and im experiencing the side effects of that because i had this pain before i started the medications in feb 2010. i had it for a year before i ever started taking SSRI drugs again.
just a bit freaked out right now and its hard to deal with especially over the last couple weeks with the pain rising and i dont really know why.
Dr. Alexander,
I dont know if I had the worst expectations for withdrawal effects I just knew that cymbalta was a drug known to be harder to come off of than others. I'm sure that has somewhat sunken into my subconscious. since cymbalta comes in capsules and not tablets i can't really drop the dosage to 20mg, then 10mg, then 5mg then off. im at 30mg and 20mg i think is the lowest dose but i dont have access to the drug anymore other than 30mg doses of it. if i were to take the pill again to try to come off even slower than i have already, i would have to take the drug every 2 days for a while, then every 3 days for a while, then every 4 days for a while, then 5, etc. is what it seems like.
i know there isn't a rush to get off the medication i started coming off of it i believe april 26th. thats when i started taking it every other day. about a week before may 12 i started taking it every 2 days and then on may 12 mothers day that was the last day i took it. i haven't taken it in a week. it feels like this strain and tension is worse now than it was before but that could be because of my concern and anxiety whether my pain has increased because i dropped off the drug (the nocebo effect) or the drug itself not being in my body anymore. either way the muscle tension in my eyes has gone way up over the last 2-3 weeks
any thoughts on this?
thank you all for your insight |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2013 : 15:34:07
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| and the tension in my eyes/the eye strain that i have is like a really really tight calf muscle. if you can picture that thats what it feels like on the inner corners of my eyes. i know anxiety has a hallmark for muscle tension so im wondering if the increase in anxiety caused this |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2013 : 15:45:39
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| i also just realized my math sucks and i was way off. i was only tapering for 17 days maybe i need to go way slower. my dad was able to cold turkey off this drug at 30mg and he said he had no side effects but everybody is different |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2013 : 16:34:05
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dgreen97- yes, everyone is different, so one person's experience can be no guide for another's. It is entirely plausible that your symptoms are both TMS and as withdrawal effect- no reason why it has to be one or the other. I thought most of these drugs were available in liquid form in America? If so, switch over to that, then start a gradual withdrawal if you want. If not, see if you can get it in a tablet- in Australia, we have compounding pharmacists who can make up the tablet in any dosage level you want in order to make the withdrawal easier with low mg tablets which are then easy to divide into smaller doses. If that isnt possible, you might like to explore Prof David Healy's SSRI withdrawal protocol (google it). This is not medical advice, so do consult with a trusted physician who respects your desire to withdraw.
James |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2013 : 21:21:00
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Good advice, Dr. James. Yes, everyone is different.
I never took any medications at all until I was about 40. However, I always had a lot of difficulty sleeping. Maybe I don't need as much sleep as other people. I took low doses of amitriptiline on and off for about 4 years and after the death of my first husband, which was really awful for me, I tried sleeping pills for a very short time, but they did not work at all. Although I have had on and off TMS most of my life, I never took anything for pain. I won't even take pain pills, anything stronger than Tylenol, after surgery. I only had minor surgeries like parathyroid surgery. When I was about 42 and trying to recover from protracted grief, a strange thing happened. I stopped seeing the idiot psychiatrist that was trying all sorts of drugs on me, which I would stop taking after 1 or 2 days due to terrible nightmares or some other equally horrific occurrence. I became convinced that no drug would ever work. I went to another psychiatrist that I liked better who was not so much of a drug pusher. After a time, because I was not sleeping, he suggested a drug called Triavil (a combination of perphenazine and amitriptiline). I took a fairly low dose just at night (25,4). For the next 15 years, my life was wonderful, it was a wonder drug for me. No sleeping problems, so no other problems. I had a great job and great life. Then the roof caved in. My husband, who is a doctor and 8 years older decided to retire and wanted me to retire with him. I don't regret this decision because I love him. I was 54 and the year we retired to Panama, which had been a dream of ours, I started menopause and went off the drug because it was not available in Panama and I really thought I could do without it. The sleep problems came back with a vengeance, especially after our house was robbed a few times. The last 7 years have been almost as bad as the years before I took the drug. Triavil is not manufactured anymore anyway. So I just took a low dose of amitriptiline (.25) and I began taking Zolpidem that all the other gringos take here). But I took half the normal dose. I did ok, but not great. Recently, I have decided to quit the zolpidem and am taking the amitrip./perphenazine after getting a prescription and ordering it outside the country, a real pain. I have been back on it for about 1 week, but it takes awhile. Already, I am sleeping much better. What is strange is that I dream much more when I am on this drug, I seldom dream, or remember my dreams when I am not taking anything. Medication does not stop my dreaming, but often makes me dream too much. I also don't feel shutdown emotionally or anything else people say about drugs. I really wish that I had never stopped taking this drug because I never had any side effects and now I am just hoping that it will work as well as it did in the past. The problem is that I STILL want to get off all drugs, that is like my mission in life. I just hate taking drugs. At least it is a good thing that I don't drink alcohol. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2013 : 22:26:25
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Withdrawal symptoms are so random.
I had to taper off quickly opiates once because my doctor had moved his practice and was unavailable for 10 days. I experienced all the unpleasant withdrawal symptoms described in the literature.
But then a few months later I decided on my own to taper off and stop (while having ample supply). It took me 2 weeks with minimal withdrawal symptoms to stop.
The only difference was that the second time, I knew that I had access to opiates if needed and thus had full control over the process while the first time, I was forced to taper off. |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2013 : 18:48:22
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quote:
It is entirely plausible that your symptoms are both TMS and as withdrawal effect- no reason why it has to be one or the other. I
i didnt know this i was always under the impression that if you had TMS then it was all TMS and nothing else.. at least thats how some people talk about it. i really can't explain what happened last week. i felt like garbage last week but this week i was out doing lawn work yesterday and today it was back to my "normal pain" if that makes sense. it was very much increased last week though which is why i thought i was having withdrawals.
since everybody is different its hard to pinpoint what happened last week. i know that when i try to startup relaxation every day, like 30 minutes of deep breathing, i can feel worse afterwards and not necessarily right away. it still kind of baffles me why this happens but i think it has something to do with my body not being used to relaxation and it doesn't know what the hell is going on. each time i've tried to startup a relaxation regimen this has happened.
i didnt know you could get these drugs in liquid form or that cymbalta even came in tablet forms either i'll have to talk to my psychiatrist about that. considering though what happened this weekend im hoping to stay off cymbalta.. i was actually thinking of starting up again and going back to on and off days after what happened last week. |
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Birdie78
Germany
145 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2013 : 00:55:21
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Degreen97, I took capsules, too. I phoned the pharmaconcern and asked them, if I could open the capsule, take off some of the agents and put it together again. They told me it's not recommended but that I could do it. So I was able to reduce my dose very, very slow.
I purchased smaller and empty capsules in the pharmacy after a while and "decanted" some of the agents into the smaller capsules. As a measuring unit I took the half of the big capsule, then the half of the smaller capsule. Not a very exact measure technique, but for me it was much more safer than to go cold turkey as recommended by my psychiatrist.
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2013 : 10:53:50
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| thanks birdie i can't believe your psychiatrist just said "stop taking this cold turkey". i've been off the drug now for a week last week sucked really bad but so far this week feels like "normal TMS pain" for me i guess you could say.. the same pain i've had for 4 1/2 years but thats better than what last week was. |
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Birdie78
Germany
145 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2013 : 13:47:44
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dgreen77, forgot to mention that it wasn't Cymablta I had to come off, it was Venlafaxin + pregabalin. Venla is similar to Cymbalta but this withdawal was ok, the worst thing I ever went through was to withdaw from Lyrica (pregabalin). Even the opiat detox was a snap compared to the Lyrica detox.
I was told I better take the lyrica lifelong because "a diabetic - at length - is also dependent on his insuline"   !! What a bad joke. I am still alive and very happy with my very lonely decicion to go on with my life without all these psycho-drugs. They gave me a great relief during a crisis when I felt I really needed some medical support, but it was never meant as a lifelong solution, I was very angry to three of my doctors who all predicted me that this will go wrong!
So congrats to your decicion, it's not easy to withdraw if one is still in some psychological and/or physiological discomfort!
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie |
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SSRIs and TMS
