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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2013 : 02:17:42
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One month ago I did not know that there was something called TMS. Then I came to this forum, read two of Sarnos books and I think I can understand what it is about. I know that self help books can make you happy for 5 minutes but after that there is work to be done and that is usually where I get stuck....I think however the valuable information I have received through so many posts on this forum will be of more help to me than the books. I have noticed that Sarno mostly concentrates on back pain. There is very little about TMJ (and fibromalgia for that matter). That is why I am still in doubt.
I think I have TMS but I am not certain. For the last 20 years I have (among other symptoms due to anxiety and depression) had back pain (now gone for one year) irritable bowel syndrome, dizziness (comes and goes but never leaves me completely even in good periods) and TMJ. TMJ has gotten worse over the last years. I always thought dizziness was the worst but now it is TMJ. My jaw and all my face muscles are extremely tight. I never relax and at night I clench my teeth. I have also toothache and of course tight neck and shoulders/head muscles. TMJ comes in many forms and it gives hell to many people and many people also get the wrong treatment from their dentists (splints that don't help and worse things).
In this country it is as if TMJ is not acknowledged. My dentist is not saying that I have TMJ and there does not seem to be as many TMJ specialists or physiotherapists (who know about TMJ) as f.eks. in the USA (I know there are a lot of moneymakers and fakes also). I have been struggling with this syndrome for all these years and I feel completely alone. My GP did not even know about TMJ. If I went to her and told her that I had TMS she would give me that look....(what is it NOW that's wrong with her). I cannot imagine that there are any TMS doctors in this country. Have not even bothered to check.
I am reading a book on TMJ written by a very respected american dentist at the moment (Robert Uppgaard) on how to live with TMJ and doing exercises etc. There is also a chapter on fibromalgia and whiplash. They all seem to give similar symptoms. The exercises don't help at all and I believe that I am tensing my muscles all day long (have probably done for years) because of my thoughts and things from a tough childhood I have not come to terms with (this is a guess). The tense muscles in the face make me very miserable and I don't even feel like smiling any more as I am both tense on the in- and outside. I am in this vicious circle called TMJ/anxiety/depression and don't know which comes first.
My questions:
Should I drop the book written by the dentist and try to distract myself (which is very difficult because I use my face and mouth all the time).
Should I just assume it is TMS, ignore the symptoms and do what you advise to do?
Thanks for reading
M. |
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 04:54:03
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Hi Indiana
Your symptoms sound very similar to mine. Although my very first symptoms were Tinnitus and chronic Migraine-like headaches. I pursued a physical cause for over two years before stumbling upon Dr Sarno. I tried physical therapies - chiropractic, osteopathy, homeopathy, myofascial release, etc. etc. I had a steroid injection in my jaw joint and a jaw manipulation to allow my mouth to open wider, as it had begun to close because the muscles in my jaw were so tight. I spent a fortune on splints from my dentist, which actually only amplified my pain, and left me with an open bite for a couple of months.
I read Dr Upgaard's book and followed his advice, but none of these things helped, and in fact seemed to make my pain worse. My doctor also looked at me askance when I mentioned TMJ. I saw a neurologist who diagnosed myofascial pain, after MRI scans, and put me on Neurontin, which I have been taking for 2 years.
Since reading Dr Sarno's books, and also SteveO's book (which I can't recommend highly enough), I have had improvement. I am not yet cured, but am now confident that one day I will be. TMJ is TMS. I have moved from a very dark place to one of light and hope, and have started to come of my meds. There is no definitive method to a cure. We are all individuals, and heal in our own way, but the key is to think psychological. Exorcise all your demons, get happy and relaxed, and most of all try not to dwell on the physical aspects of your present condition. Believe me, I know this is not easy when some of your worst pain is in your face, because it's "in your face". But it is possible given time and faith.
Cath
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 05:49:17
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Hi Cath,
Thank you very much for your encouraging reply. I am not on medicine which I think is a good thing. Pain killers don't work for me.
I have recently taken up yoga but due to my dizziness I can only do three exercises per day but they seem to calm me down a bit. In a few months I will have CBT. Hopefully it will show me why I am so angry all the time. Lately I am even angry(I know it is not the subconscious anger they all talk about) at my husband because he does not get my situation but of course I cannot expect him to understand. It just builds up and up and stays in the jaw apparently. I will buy the book from SteveO. Thanks for your support
Marlis |
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GTfan
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 06:32:57
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After almost 4 months of groin pain, through Dr. Sarno's methods I am almost completely cured. However, I also have TMJ but it hadn't been that bad the past months that I have been dealing with groin pain.
Now that my groin pain is almost gone, the TMJ pain has ratcheted up to very painful level. I've tried applying Dr. Sarno's methods, but the last few days it has only gotten worse. I think maybe since I have had TMJ longer, I'm having a hard time convincing myself that it is TMS. I'm also having a hard time finding pain triggers since the pain is pretty chronic and seems to get worse "out of nowhere".
You’ll fall down, you stumble, you land square on your face. And every time that happens, you get back on your feet. You get up just as fast as you can, no matter how many times you need to do it |
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 06:40:17
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TMS or outside these circles called mind/body stress disorder is the cause of over 135 common symptoms...TMJ is high on the list. I have had it severely –so much so could not chew!
When nervous system exceeds its threshold from years of both internal and external stress it can take on a new set point. It thinks that extreme body tension is the new normal.
Our brains are designed to do what is known as process memory or simply habit. To conserve data processing it will lump (Hebbian Concept) many processes into one neural pathway (like driving a car) it then is automatic. Muscle tension started at a time of threat and if it happens long enough the brain wires the experience into a process memory and thinks that is now the new normal.
So how to undo the process. The counteracting part of the nervous system is called the parasympathetic or rest, relax and heal branch. So you have to turn it on often enough to rewire the old neural pathway. Meditation and skilled relaxation is one way – there are dozens but they must be done often during the day and for significant periods. 15 to 30 minutes is not sufficient.
Next is removing all possible stressors including the most insidious and invisible....the internal ones.
We know from SPECT and fMRI scans that regressive therapy or Sarno’s mistaken program of trying to find the smoking gun of old repressed emotion actually reactivates the threat response and reinforces the negative neural programming.
For many people a myopic program like Sarno’s is not sufficient or even helpful in retraining the nervous system. It requires many modalities from diet and exercise to cognitive restructuring and lifestyle changes.
You can stretch and treat the symptoms endlessly and unless the central control is retrained (our brain) it will keep recreating the same and new symptoms.
"Around and Around the Circle We Go....
The Answer Sits In The Middle and Knows..." |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 07:00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by All1Spirit
unless the central control is retrained (our brain) it will keep recreating the same and new symptoms.
No matter what you do to "retrained" your brain, if you can not somehow stop your fear of your symptoms you will never be cure.
One don't have to do anything fancy to cure. All one have to do to cure is to stop thinking there is anything structurally wrong with one's body and to stop fearing what the symptoms will do to. Whatever method you want to use, if it does not help you achieve the above two, it will not cure you.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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apace41
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 08:04:49
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Indiana,
Look toward the bottom of page 1 on the forum and see the posting on Psycho-Physiological Dizziness and see if that sounds familiar to what you are dealing with. That is what I'm dealing with and if you find that resonates, email me through the site and we can discuss.
I've had TMJ in the past and suspect it is the symptom imperative at work.
Andy |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 08:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by All1Spirit
...or Sarno’s mistaken program of trying to find the smoking gun of old repressed emotion actually reactivates the threat response and reinforces the negative neural programming.
For many people a myopic program like Sarno’s is not sufficient or even helpful in retraining the nervous system. It requires many modalities from diet and exercise to cognitive restructuring and lifestyle changes.
You can stretch and treat the symptoms endlessly and unless the central control is retrained (our brain) it will keep recreating the same and new symptoms.
Thanks for your contribution Ric, but you've missed the Good Doctor's point, maybe you need to read your Sarno again more thoughtfully and more thoroughly. He does NOT recommend psychotherapy except for a very few to help them grasp his beautifully simple theory, and then only a handful of sessions are needed to help that individual wrap their conscious brain around the concept that their subconscious is the source of their TMS pain--that the pain is harmless--benign--thus helping them overcome the FEAR that they are doing damage with every bodily movement--WHICH THEY ARE NOT!
Dr. Sarno says you do NOT have to find the smoking gun in your past to be TMS "cured"--you need only wrap your head around his simple TMS theory. Breaking through all the erroneous modern psychobabble surrounding psychosomatic pain is the difficult part for many. Current "scientific" thinking seems to demand "un"-human levels of complexity to instill false belief in it's mistaken validity: "It's complicated, I've never heard of it before, it's in the NY Times and on NPR--it has big words--therefore it must be TRUE!"
You are incorrect on Dr. Sarno recommending "stretching" or "treating"
the symptoms! I don't know where you divined that notion from, maybe you got it confused with some other program you're using but it is diametrically in conflict with Dr. Sarno's recommendations. He, in fact, says "DON'T STRETCH" and to "IGNORE THE SYMPTOMS"--he says to his patients to "JUST DO IT"! "There is nothing structurally wrong with you, including the structure of your nervous system. The problem is in the misinformation and urban scientific myths we're being bombarded with damaging our BELIEF systems.
Good Luck in your recovery Ric, when you first started posting here, I think you were pretty much bed-bound, how's your progress, what's been working for you, what activities are you participating in that you couldn't before? I hope some of Dr. Sarno's "KNOWLEDGE PENICILLIN" has penetrated and has been of some use. It may be time for a TMS booster, but I believe you sold off your books.
G'luck!
tt/lsmft
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 04/25/2013 08:27:26 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 09:48:00
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tennis tom, I disagree with your assessment of what the Sarno psychotherapy is.
I had psychotherapy with Don Dubin and it was all about uncovering past trauma.
Also please read the book "Pathways to Pain Relief" by Frances Sommer Anderson (Author), Eric Sherman (Author), John E. Sarno MD (Foreword). Anderson and Sherman are Sarno psychologists that worked directly with him. Again the book is all about finding those elusive past events. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 10:37:39
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Alix, we've discussed this before, I've also seen Don Dubin and he was helpful to me, but unfortunately not for you and your friend. Don Told me I had a good grasp on TMS theory and didn't really need his help, but I chatted with him a few more times before he passed because he was travelling to NYU to meet with Dr. Sarno in person. I'm always interested in news about TMS from direct sources like Don Dubin had and also SteveO and Nicole Sachs.
The truths often are lost, confused or distorted at message boards like here. The best thing for anyone who wants to get "it" is to immerse themselves in books by authors who have accurate TMS knowledge. The bibliography here on the HOME page has many books with accurate TMS info. As with all message boards, they're good for getting new information but anyone can say anything. If one doesn't have some accurate TMS fundamentals under their mental belt, they will be whip-sawed by the erroneous info that "sounds" truthful but isn't--the subconscious will believe the lies it wants to believe to continue their psychosomatic TMS pain as a protective psychological defense mechanism from the even more painful emotional issues their subconscious has decided for them that they're not ready to face.
My point is that the beauty of Dr. Sarno's TMS theory, is it's simplicity and that the vast majority of people with TMS DON't need any further psychotherapy to get it. Unfortunately you did, some people have more baggage to sift through. Many people come here, get it, and are literally able to run off and don't need more then the TMS basics.
I wouldn't judge the effectiveness of Dr. Sarno's theory by those who are regulars here with ongoing TMS symptoms. But, nothing wrong with hanging around here either, beats sitting in the doc's office waiting for the usual RX brush-off. I'm here because I feel the topic is important, I'm an athlete and have always been fascinated with the dynamics of the mindbody interactions.
Cheers,
tt/lsmft |
Edited by - tennis tom on 04/25/2013 10:39:53 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 10:51:50
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tennis tom, I appreciate your continued efforts to bring back threads to Sarno basics. That is very commendable.
But Don and I discussed Sarno theories for 5 minutes and he concluded that I understood it very well. We then moved on to childhood stuff.
It is the same for those 2 authors that are Sarno psychologists and worked with John Sarno directly. The entire book is about digging into childhood events and trauma.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 11:05:43
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| Fine alix, my point being that the vast majority don't need psychotherapy to get over their TMS--only a small minority. Those who are regulars here and can't get through their TMS by reading the books alone, are likely the ones who need the further assist of psychotherapy. And absolutely nothing wrong with that, some people have more embedded psychological baggage, due to life's vicissitudes that are outside their conscious to control. Probably the best time to see a therapist is when one is feeling "great" but who does that? Alix, I wouldn't get too worked up about anything you read here, it's just a message board with thoughts as random as meteorites flitting about space and flaming out on entering the earth's atmosphere. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 04/26/2013 09:35:24 |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2013 : 00:11:50
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Thanks apace41
I have read the posting about PPD. I have nearly all the symptoms but I do not worry anymore whether it is the one or the other. Anxiety or TMS.
It all started 20 years ago when I painted a ceiling. Looking up triggers the attacks. Also turning my head quickly when lying down or getting up too quickly when lying down. Maybe it is because of my constant stiff neck. I have my doubts whether I will ever get rid of it since I have had it for so long but I can live with it even if it prevents me from many things like f.eks. going to yoga classes.
I have had problems with my balance all my life. As a child I would get sea sick (still do) or car sick very easily. I will now try to ignore it if that is possible when you are sick in the stomach, dizzy and unstable on your feet..... |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2013 : 08:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by indiana
Should I drop the book written by the dentist...
Yes, it is absolutely essential if you want to treat it as TMS.
quote:
Should I just assume it is TMS, ignore the symptoms and do what you advise to do?
Yes, provided your doctors and dentists have ruled out any serious medical problem.
TMS is clever and will perpetuate the symptoms that have the most potential to grab your attention and make you believe they are due to physical problems. I'm sure Dr. Uppgaard has good intentions, but if you accept his arguments and treatment suggestions, then it is contradictory to TMS. You have to choose one path. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2013 : 16:38:23
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| Most major anxiety resource sites/books/practitioners recognize TMJ as a very common manifestation of anxiety/panic. (TMS) |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2013 : 21:46:25
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I haven't read the whole thread but I feel I can truly confirm that TMJ is TMS. I recently had another dental pain round, again started by actual dentistry, like my last one a few years ago, which went away somewhat miraculously by being treated as TMS, even after several dentists prescribed various kinds of splints and redoing of dentistry, etc. etc. .
In the recent round of TMJ, I could feel it coming on, and the "LOOP" starting to swirl, as my brain realized that it now "had me." I had to drag my attention fingers out of the cookie dough of obsessing, looking around for cures, etc. My prior success with massive TMJ after work on 16 teeth, which I thought would kill me, but went away by refusing to believe it was real (see my posts somewhere in the history), gave me confidence to pooh pooh the new round that was starting to happen.
Part of the cure here is to gain confidence in refuting physical explanations, and in my experience I both get confidence from other people, and from my own building experience of pooh-poohing my many and varied TMS scares.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2013 : 02:27:08
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To bryan3000
True. The trouble is that many dentist treat TMJ as a dental problem only because they (understandably) don't want to get involved in the anxiety issue. Tight jaw muscles (due to anxiety) can give dental problems (bite, teeth don't fit together)and then of course you go to the dentist. It is very complex. I read again and again the people have gone from one treatment (physical therapy, chiropractic and many others) to the next without really getting better. So yes I am slowly getting convinced that it is TMS.
I consider myself lucky to be able to go to american/english sites and read english books to get the necessary information. I don't know how people cope with TMJ in this country if they cannot communicate in english. What did people do 50 years ago before the internet for that matter. TMJ/Anxiety/depression was certainly not something you could read about in the media. I think sufferers were considered "having something with their nerves" or "being at bit strange in the head."
Hopefully this stigma regarding mental issues/illness will end soon. We don't need it and have enough on our plate as it is.
I think |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2013 : 02:34:56
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Thanks Wavy Soul
The more response i get from TMJ sufferers the more confident I get that there is hope and I can get out of the vicious circle. I am only at the beginning of my TMS journey and I have not felt as good as I did last week in years. Just by ignoring my tooth pain, doing some yoga
and doing a lot of gardening after the long horrible winter here.
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GTfan
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 15:12:13
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I just can't seem to get rid of this TMJ pain. For whatever reason, I can't translate what worked in getting rid of my groin pain to my jaw.
Most of the time it doesn't bother me much, but it does just enough to "distract" me. A couple of nights it got the worst that has been in over a year. (Probably because I got rid of my groin pain)
I imagine that I'm just going to have to keep telling myself that this is emotionally induced and not to think of it physically.
You’ll fall down, you stumble, you land square on your face. And every time that happens, you get back on your feet. You get up just as fast as you can, no matter how many times you need to do it |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 16:13:43
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Hi Indiana, I had tmj and I did got rid of it using mind body approach.
My thought is Conventional medicine and dentist have no cure for tmj, why not just take a chance and treat it as if it is tms. Devote a couple months of your life and go 100% mind body and see if you can defeat it. TMJ is not a life and death disease, conventional approach can wait a couple months.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 08:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GTfan
I just can't seem to get rid of this TMJ pain. For whatever reason, I can't translate what worked in getting rid of my groin pain to my jaw.
Most of the time it doesn't bother me much, but it does just enough to "distract" me. A couple of nights it got the worst that has been in over a year. (Probably because I got rid of my groin pain)
I imagine that I'm just going to have to keep telling myself that this is emotionally induced and not to think of it physically.
You’ll fall down, you stumble, you land square on your face. And every time that happens, you get back on your feet. You get up just as fast as you can, no matter how many times you need to do it
Yes don't I know about that pain. It is distracting and comes and goes. You just never know. Sometimes it is really difficult to be convinced that is only emotional. I know all pain is bad but pain in the head is the worst.
I guess we have to struggle on. |
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Still in doubt whether TMJ is TMS
