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cnotes11
USA
49 Posts |
 Posted - 04/19/2013 : 06:20:54
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I've tried to quit this forum numerous times, I appear unable to. Again its pure frustration that's brought me back. Nothing to lose I guess.
I browsed some of the old threads before posting this. Couldn't find anything quite addressing my question. If someone knows where this has already been discussed please point me in that direction.
Brief context: I'm 27. Had back pain 7-8 years. About 4 years ago this pain became generalized chronic pain in different areas (neck, leg, etc). This segued to intermittent pain and variety of symptoms, ranging from migraines, to nausea, to skin problems, to insomnia. This has had devastating effects on my life personally, emotionally, and financially. I have suffered from depression concurrently with all this. I have many times considered taking my own life. I have gone through exhaustive efforts to try to remedy the situation. Too many things to list really, and I probably can't even remember them all at this point anyway. I feel like I am going crazy about half the time. But keep trying to fight for myself and the hope the some day in the future I will have a life again.
Through all of this about the only thing I can point to that has made much of a difference for me is meditation. I've done some structured programs and some work on my own. I've been at it for over a year. But I keep running into a problem. Hoping some people on here have more experience than me, and can offer insight.
When I meditate.. sometimes notice a reduction in symptoms. i.e. muscles relax, pain dissipates, etc. When I discovered this it was the happiest moment of my last 5 years. I jumped to the conclusion that I'd found my way out. I thought if I just keep doing this symptoms will reduce and reduce down to nothing. That hasn't worked. In fact, it has almost started a kind of ping pong effect. I would meditate, generally feel better, only to have symptoms quickly return. I got frustrated after some time and stopped meditating. Started again, then stopped again, then started again.
I've always started back up again because its about all that I have. I don't know where else to turn. Don't have a lot of energy. Financially cant afford much treatment anymore. So meditation is very important to me. Which leads to my question.
How can I stop approaching meditation from the expectation of wanting it to reduce symptoms? I cannot seem to escape this. Its gotten to the point where it infers, I am meditating... but repetitively thinking is it working? Are the symptoms being reduced? Why isn't it working? I am doing the same as yesterday? Its not working, its going to take me 4 hours to get to sleep tonight.. Today was good meditation, yesterday was bad meditation...And on and on....Seems to be counter productive.
Read quite a bit about mindfulness and meditation. Everything I've read advises to try and drop expectations and distance yourself from value judgments. More about a state of being than whatever you are doing. Accepting what is, not trying to force things, etc. So this mental pattern I am in seems to fly in the face of everything meditation is aimed toward. But I can't seem to help it. I can't get away from my symptoms, they are in my face demanding attention. Anyone else see the conundrum? Anyone else have the same problem? Am I needlessly over analyzing? Am I even making sense!?! It would be nice if some of you would be willing to share your opinions or experiences.
Thank you for reading
Colin
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 07:03:03
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First you have to realize that this forum deifies Sarno and is pretty much a “one trick pony” Sarno provided the mind/body link without exploring all the treatments that work for recovery. In his defense 30 years ago not much was known.
I find great issues with any program that is narrow and says our way is the only path to God. People die because of similar belief systems.
TMS is a nervous system stuck in sympathetic dominance. It has been trained to follow a neuro-pathway to over expression of the arousal response and most often this starts in early childhood when the brain is highly plastic.
We now have dozens of methods of retraining the nervous system...and going back over historical pain just etches the arousal pathways deeper.
One outcome of meditation is engaging the parasympathetic nervous system. This is a great way to start retraining the brain. What you have found is that you are feeling skin deep neural reprogramming and then the brain falls back into the same pattern.
What you and most of us need it the whole basket of techniques that are proven to change the brain – diaphragm breathing sessions each hour for a few minutes. Visualization sessions as you come out of meditation when the mind is open to change and more meditation sessions per day.
There are too many techniques to engage the parasympathetic nervous system to cover here. Thoughts and beliefs are also major stimulants of the CNS. A MAJOR reason people get better in just reading about TMS is that it reduces the fear and they change their beliefs.
People often get better when they join a community where they are understood and accepted. This is certainly not unique to TMS. There is loads of research on people doing better in face-to-face community support groups.
They go from a bear in the bushes (some horrible disorder that many need surgery) to Oh!! just the neighbor dog (its just stress). There is no Sarno magic here – it is all part of the common stress response and the reduction from fear extinction.
Meditation and diaphragm breathing along with cognitive restructuring has several thousand years of proven track record in healing. Revisiting past painful memories as a path to healing came to us through the drug addict Sigmund Freud. Regressive or psychodynamic therapy has bee disproven and brain scans show that reliving painful memories in our thoughts causes more stress and promotes PTSD.
Sarno was just one voice on the mind/body connection and unfortunately he was extremely myopic to the point of being dangerous. He threw away patients scans who later became paralyzed from major mechanical body conditions....not TMS.
For those with an open mind here is some reading – for those fully engaged in Saro dogma this won't be of interest
http://www.bettermovement.org/2011/a-skeptical-look-at-the-theories-of-dr-john-sarno/
http://www.skepticnorth.com/2010/03/the-deluded-mind-a-review-of-the-divided-mind/
"Around and Around the Circle We Go....
The Answer Sits In The Middle and Knows..." |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
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cnotes11
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 08:13:55
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@allspirit yea agree
@shawnsmith okay |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 08:41:24
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| Here you go again Rik just asserting your anti depth psychology bias as fact and refusing to engage with James Alexander and others who challenge you on the evidence and refusing to acknowledge all the successes people have had. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 08:56:04
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Rik, allspirit, whatever you are calling yourself today, your problem is that YOU ARE BELIEVING YOUR OWN PSYCHOBABBLE!.
tt/lsmft
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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cnotes11
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 09:08:37
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| Meant to say agree with parts/too tired to respond. The response doesn't address my question at all. Would appreciate not turning this into an argument. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 09:37:09
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quote:
Originally posted by All1Spirit
First you have to realize that this forum deifies Sarno...
And Ric, your deity is called the "god of science", your liturgy is "the studies", that you believe are the truth because they are "published" in the sacred tablets called "journals". Your new religion is failing because it puts the institutions of the religion of science, university clinics and teaching hospitals above the needs of the individual--this is what got us here today, an "epidemic" of chronic pain that today's scientific medicine is unable to cure. Patients are regarded as emotionless, assemblies of anatomical parts as cars being assembled on an assembly line. Dr. Sarno's beautifully simple TMS theory is too simple for you. My yoga teacher used to say, his biggest problem teaching yoga was that his "well educated" students "knew too much". You present a lot of cliches here undermining once again people's belief because all your training won't allow you to grasp the Good Doctor's cure. You came here asking for help and got lots of it and now you are insulting the entire site and Dr. Sarno who it is dedicated to.
So what treatment plan worked for you? Have you taken your 40 foot motor-home out of your driveway yet? Tell us how you have improved your life since seeking help here, specifically what have you done that can be replicated by others and not a bunch of cliched psychobabbling.
tt/lsmft
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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catmac
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 10:25:17
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I can't get away from my symptoms, they are in my face demanding attention. Anyone else see the conundrum? Anyone else have the same problem? Am I needlessly over analyzing? Am I even making sense!?! It would be nice if some of you would be willing to share your opinions or experiences.
Thank you for reading
Colin
Hi Colin
Why don't you try e mailing Steve (who sometimes posts on here) Ozanich. I'm sure he will be able to give you some guidance on this. I've e mailed him a few times and he has been fantastic.
I also tried meditation with my symptoms and found it to work really well.
I know you are frustrated at the moment, but you can and will recover from this with a bit of support and help.
I'm disappointed that this thread has turned into a slanging match between a few people. This forum was a lifeline for me when I first had chronic pain and was so supportive, but now I feel a few people are spoiling this and I rarely visit this site now. I wish they would just e mail each other directly and have their spats!!! Most people on this site want to help and value other peoples opinions and recovery stories. At the end of the day all we want is too feel better, and if recovered we want to help.
Good luck, Colin. I hope you contact Steve (who also talked about meditation and guided imagery in his book). |
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 11:11:07
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I apologize to colin for not adding anything helpful to your questions. I am sadly only reacting to something that is bothering me.. and yeah, it is the TMS way to deal with things that bother you, so.. again, sorry
Tom/pspa123
Can't you collect some of the stuff on Ric/all1spirit or whatever the name and put it in a thread dedicated to him? I totally understand why you guys feel you need to react to his posts, but it tends to overshadow what the thread is all about. I don't agree with the post of all1spirit and I don't understand what he is looking for on this support forum, but I also don't agree with your reactions to every piece of poo he drops.
It is like people in a cafe want to have a decent conversation about serious stuff, but they can't because the usual suspects enter and have the same loud argument again that does seem to go on forever.
Dedicate a thread to him or his negativity in general and just post the shortcut in future threads if you need to make a point. See it as pointing to his picture hanging behind the bar with a short statement beneath it "don't let this guy pull you down". |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 11:41:33
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Address your comments to him NOT to me, he's the one triggering this, not me. This is the TMS Forum, on any other forum on the planet if you pulled his **** you'd have the door slammed on your butt in no time. How come TMS'ers are so afraid to engage even on a TV screen?
Ric with an endless stream of sugar coated smart sounding psychobabble is destroying people's hope here, undermining the fundamental basis of Dr. Sarno's TMS theory, I hope he's proud of himself. |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 12:14:55
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The reason people like TT and pspa123, as well as Dr. James Alexander push back against Rikr is out of concern for new people on this forum. We know that Rikr is terrified to confront his own unconscious daemons, so he wants everyone else to be terrified to confront their's, to the detriment of all of us as a society.
I am not saying this in anger, I have nothing but the best wishes for Rikr, but I do not want new people who have exhausted all the lightweight therapies to be turned away from Depth Psychologies because rikr doesn't like them. New people are often desperate and traumatized.
So any of you out there who would accuse me of furthering the argument, just know that is not my intention and it can stop right here.
Now to the point: Colin, I am so sorry for your anguish and pain. I believe I have been there myself and am not fully recovered. I also discovered meditation about 6 years ago. It worked incredibly well for about 2 years and gradually did not work at all. In fact now, I just find it annoying. Please do not listen to people who would tell you to keep trying things that you are certain are not working for you, just because it works for them.
If you are like me, and it sounds like maybe you are, I discovered that I was not one of the "easy" cases. I had unresolved traumatic childhood issues that needed attention. By giving these attention, my healing process really began. Giving these attention does not necessarily mean being traumatized all over again if it is done using the proper approach and by a qualified person.
You must remember that TMS is primarily a "unconsciously driven" phenomenon. No one's conscious mind would deliberately give them crippling pain and suffering. Try to take this suffering as both a warning and an opportunity to know yourself for the first time in your life. At times, approaches like knowledge and spiritual awareness are all that is needed, other times healing requires approaches that get well below the surface.
I suggest you start by reading "The Hidden Psychology of Pain" by Dr. James Alexander. This book will give you an introduction to both self-help and professional approaches to your problem. There are a lot to chose from and Dr. Alexander does a fantastic job of describing them. He also includes techniques you can do yourself that may lessen your suffering. One of the best things about the book is that it is completely up to date on scientific advances in Neurology, specifically the discovery of the "neuroplasticity" of the brain. The book, while conveying a lot of scientific information, is written in a style that anyone could understand. Once you have read this book, you can decide which is the best approach for you. And don't worry about having the resources to heal, you are much more powerful than you think. Your organism will find what works and make it happen. It has happened for a lot of us, we don't all respond to the same approaches, and it will happen for you too!!
Please also read SteveO's book, "The Great Pain Deception". Believe me, if HE can recover from TMS, you can too. This book also contains a lot of information that can help relieve your suffering.
Another thing I would suggest is to read Ace's Keys to healing everyday. These will help you to not exacerbate your problem in a conscious manner. These were one of the first things that helped me.
I hope this helps. please keep in touch and let us know how you are doing. We all care about you.
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 12:53:26
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I did 2 years of meditation and that did not make me pain free. Just like for you, it helped temporarily but that was it.
It is only when I addressed the emotional baggage that I really improved.
I think meditation is helpful but you have to address the underlying issues. Even the "presence process" starts with meditation but then eventually makes you face your emotions progressively. Same for somatic experiencing and many other practices. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 16:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
The reason people like TT and pspa123, as well as Dr. James Alexander push back against Rikr is out of concern for new people on this forum. We know that Rikr is terrified to confront his own unconscious daemons, so he wants everyone else to be terrified to confront their's, to the detriment of all of us as a society.
Thank you, that is exactly it! |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 17:10:20
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cnotes, there are many books on the subject of meditation out there. Lots of them are free too. Just google them in pdf file types. Lots of them.
a couple hours a day is not enough. Meditation is a life long goal, you have to live it 24 hours a day every day. The books just teach you the technique but you have to live it all the time, you have to be IN THE NOW. The goal of meditation is to give you a skill to direct your mind, your thinking back to the NOW, to take back control of your thought.
If you brush your teeth, your mind is fill with thought about how to brush, brush the upper, the lower teeth, brush inside, brush outside... all about your teeth. Sound simple but can you do it? You would find that your mind is every where. Oh my back hurt. Oh where is my laptop, I have to meet with my boss today, did I turn off the stove.... You see, if you can keep your mind totally focus on the task at hand, focus on your study when you study. Focus on your food, enjoy it's taste when you're having dinner. Focus on the movie when you're watching movie.... just focus on the exactly thing that you doing, nothing else. Can you do it? Keep practice, keep doing it. The goal is to have total control of your thought. Don't let it wander around aimlessly, that is when it create troublesome thoughts or scary thought.
Practice a a couple hours but keep the concept in mind and doing it every second of the day. One day it will become a skill that would save your life.
Hope this help.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 17:21:46
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Is it what you are doing Balto? Are you in the now most of the time?
I am trying to be in the now as much as possible and that helps a lot. It eradicated the fear of the pain for me. Much more than 2 hours of meditation... followed by turning on the TV and watching CNN. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 18:36:59
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I never watch or read the news anymore -- absolutely nothing, and I mean absolute in the most absolute sense. I don't even own a TV or a cell phone and only visit a few websites. If some major event happens someone has to tell me about it or I will overlook it. I found out about the Boston Marathon tragedy the day after and I had to ask the person who told me what the details were as I had no idea. I have zero idea of what is taking place in the world. I choose to not poison my mind with the news as it only adds to my pain and stress. Why would anyone in their right mind want to do that to themselves? CNN, Fox News, New York Times, etc., all lies and distortions of reality whose goal is to keep viewers / readers in a state of high tension. Stay away from that.
As for being in a meditative state 24/7, regardless of what you are otherwise doing, I just cannot possibly imagine how that could be possible, but then again I may be proven wrong.
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“Living up to an image that you have of yourself or that
other people have of you is inauthentic living – another unconscious role the ego plays.” -- Ekhart Tolle |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 18:51:29
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quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
Dedicate a thread to him or his negativity in general and just post the shortcut in future threads if you need to make a point. See it as pointing to his picture hanging behind the bar with a short statement beneath it "don't let this guy pull you down".
That's an excellent idea! I'm a internet Luddite, you're an IT professional I believe, I nominate you to do it.
Thanks,
tt/lsmft |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 19:39:07
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C-notes, I'll address just your questions, not the debate about Sarno that followed, except to say, I read the articles Spirit posted and I actually agree with some of it, not all. I too have wondered why Sarno hasn't mentioned the newer theories of pain, eg, from Lorimer Moseley of Australia, which make a lot of sense. The 2nd posted article in the Skeptic mag, I doubt the author has done more than skimmed Sarno because he misused the term, "symptom imperative" several times.
Okay c-notes, do you have a meditation center of some kind in your area? I mention this because I belong to one and I find meditating with a group very valuable and a lot easier than trying to go it alone, especially in the beginning.
You mention that you are already aware of what you have read in books about not trying to force certain feelings or reactions from meditation, but just to observe whatever comes up. Correct, but it sounds like you are not really doing that because you are judging and trying to make go away the bad feelings that sometimes come up or whether you have had a "good" or a "bad" meditation. Yes, it is very difficult adopt a neutral stance when you badly want a particular outcome! It takes lots of practice to have it be okay whatever happens and just adopt a tone of curiousity. "Touch and go" is a phrase you can remember for how to deal with difficult emotions.
Finally, I know from personal experience that like anything else you want to become expert at, it takes practice. Mat time. I would experiment with meditating every single day, at least once a day for a month with absolutely no expectations, if possible. Don't allow yourself to make a judgment on its effectiveness until after 30 days.
It might help to be aware that meditation is confoundingly extremely difficult and easy at the same time. It seems easy to simply sit and breathe, observing what comes up. Try it! It is rare to go more than a minute or two (usually only several seconds) without a smorgasbord of thoughts and emotions to arise, most half-consciously, and this is completely natural! The point is not to get hung up on them, but to return to the breath.
If you don't have a meditation group in your city, check Meetup.com for one or start your own. Being with a group has other values too. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 19:57:01
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| I like to refer to it as lack of reacting and letting go as opposed to doing meditation. I feel a lot of times when someone feels like they have to do meditation they are trying too hard. The real truth is you want to basically do nothing. You want to stop your bad habits as opposed to actually doing something. I don't even call it meditation bc I am not really focusing what I am doing in the present. I just have to NOT PROJECT MYSELF INTO THE FUTURE. You see the healing comes from stopping the bad habits. There are many healthy people who are not meditating all day. The key point is they don't have these intense strain producing habits that break their bodies down. I can think of the future and be ok as long as I don't strain about it. I hope this makes sense. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 20:09:57
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| Not caring about one,s fellow human beings doesnt sound like a recipe for health to me. |
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Meditation
