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alix
USA
434 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2013 : 12:20:10
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This is an interesting web site full of information.
http://www.bodyinmind.org/
http://www.bodyinmind.org/stress-model-of-chronic-pain-vachon-presseau/
What is astonishing however is that while all the TMS factors are covered in many articles (limbic system, amygdala, stress), there is not a word on Sarno. I saw a reference to the "back pain controversy of the 1980s" and yet no Sarno. It is like Sarno is a taboo subject and if his name was mentioned, the site would loose credibility. |
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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 13:52:38
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Body/Mind interactions predate Sarno many years in western medicine/psychology and thousands of years in ancient wisdom. I did my doctoral thesis on it in 1983.
Sarno looses credibility with neurophysiologists because of his repressed emotions part of his theory. They have no argument that the mind is both healer and slayer as Dr. Kenneth Pelletier wrote 30 years ago.
With modern biofeedback equipment and scans we can see that revisiting old painful emotions flood the body with damaging hormones and chemicals. We also have about 70 years of experience with psychodynamic and regressive therapies and they simply did not work for most conditions. Their main benefit was support and having someone to talk to and even that was not very helpful.
Then you have Sarno’s muscle/oxygen depravation theory that does not fit basic physiology and all know science and his conclusions and causes are questioned. Being a physical medicine doctor his contribution that gets overlooked was the pain/brain connection. In his defense the technology 30 years ago limited his understanding of the necessary treatment protocols. However the Sarno clones have kept much of it alive and as much as he thought pain was a distraction from repressed emotions I have come to believe that over focus on painful past memories is a Red Herring that is scientifically provable and a HUGE distraction from the real work..
I have read all the 7 major TMS books and worked the different programs. If simply losing the fear of the condition by reading a book relieves a person of pain then you have a prime example of the placebo effect or a reparenting process. For many people the personality structure and cognitive habits that drive the pain expression have to be addressed and Sarno does not offer this.
The closest book I have read by a TMS person to being the next critical step is Monte Heuftle’s work. His conclusions are supported my most of the top mind/body researchers and also ancient wisdom traditions.
I have not read the links you posted but I do believe that Sarno offered a great contribution but some of his protocols are no longer valid and can actually be a determent to recovery for many people.
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 14:13:45
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Interesting RikR. Do you believe that Schubiner's model is more accurate?
For me, Eckhart Tolle's thoughts control or think clean (however you want to call this shift), was key to becoming symptoms free. I am definitely no Sarno book cure. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 14:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by RikR
...I do believe that Sarno offered a great contribution but some of his protocols are no longer valid and can actually be a determent to recovery for many people.
Then why do you keep wasting your time here, if you're not careful you may be associated with the "Sarno Clones", that birds of a feather thing.
Current "Sarno" think is that the mindbody is the source of the symptoms and the physiological mechanism that causes it is no matter. The subconscious gremlin will always come up with a new sx for a distraction. The Good Doctor believes that the brain is too complex to figure the mechanism of TMS is our lifetime and maybe never. All that is needed to be "TMS cured" is to take the leap of faith and accept the big picture theory.
Rik, what do you think of the work of Candace Pert and polyneurompeptides? |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 15:12:45
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Rik- if you havent read 'Unlocking The Emotional Brain' by Ecker, Ticic & Hulley (2012) by now, you really should. It presents cutting edge neuroscience which seems to have not filtered out to many in the scientific community as yet (including science and health journalists). In terms of affective neuroscience and the effects of trauma, they are mostly are still with Van der Kolk's proposals that distressed emotional memories are indelible, which is more than 10 years old now. You will find that the memory reconsolidation area of study in neuroscience provides a reasonable degree of support with many of Sarno's basic contentions, if not total support.
I think this book, and the general field of study of implicit emotional memory is mostly consistent with Sarno's approach , keeping in mind the primitive state of neuroscience when he was formulating his ideas. Yes, they do also talk about the unconscious as being "the personal, dynamic unconscious (the Freudian unconscious) consists largely of implicit memory of emotional learnings formed and stored by the subcortical limbic system and the right cortical hemisphere. Implicit emotional learnings generate responses independently of conscious awareness which is based in other cortical regions" (p.31).
I dont think Sarno ever suggested he was the last word on this stuff. The field of neuroscience develops at such a rapid rate that most things (eg. Van der Kolk's 2003 ground breaking observations in 'the body keeps the score') are outdated pretty quickly. The model proposed by Ecker et al (2012), the therapeutic reconsolidation process (TRP) offers a way of making sense of mind/body pain conditions, as well as an understanding of methods which help people overcome them (as well as emotional problems). To poohoo these propositions (which are based on current neuroscience), as well as the somewhat similar precursers (eg Sarno's approach) is simply to ignore what science is currently saying, just because neuroligically naive practitioners were saying similar things decades ago.
Rik- you have the wherewithall to read Ecker's book (it is written for psychologists and therapists, so wont appeal or be digestible to many of the general population). The TRP model is broader than Sarno's propositions, but does subsume and somewhat validate it. It is an approach which stands outside of the traditional schools of thought within psychology, ie. it is neither psychodynamic, nor cognitive behavioural. Nor does it suggest any one approach, but gives us an understanding and language required for making sense of why disparate approaches may work (including Sarno's). If your intention is more than just knocking down models you dont agree with, ie. if it is to gain an understanding and to then assist others to gain understanding, then i can only highly recommend this book.
James |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 16:01:04
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| Im pretty sure we have discussed Lorrimer Moseley here before. |
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kalo
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 16:38:28
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I am probably going to get blasted here...
But, I think it's not just the unconicous mind repressed emotion that only causes pain.
Look at Balto, it was over comming his fear that got him better...
ACE1, is another example that it wasn't unconcious repressed emotions...
Monte, who is a TMS coach and overcame TMS himself, did the unconcious repressed therapy and it wasn't until he started thinking CLEAN, almost what ACE1's theory "keys to healing" did he get well.
He has seen MANY of ex-Sarno's patients who either didn't get better and or got better only for the pain to return..
He helped them with his knoweledge and feels that it is DAY TO DAY repressed emotions that causes pain..
Oh, gosh, when does one find what unconcious repressed emotions is causing pain...
I tell you what??? Anyone want to offer me free SKYPE therapy, let's see if unconcious repressed rage is causing my pain...
Or do I have to read another book???
Kalo |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
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kalo
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 17:05:33
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There is never going to be consensus on this issue but I guess we can continue to argue about it.
Sample discussion from 2005 in the context of Monte Heuftle's book.
Not trying to start an argument, but, seeing some of the members who have CURED themselves i.e. balto, ACE1 and many others who didn't need to go to therapy and find out what unconcious repressed rage was the cause of pain, makes me think that it's not ALWAYS the unconcious mind.
Truthfully, I lurk hear from time to time, and, I've seen people that have been on this forum for quite along time and are still trying to find what "unconcious reressed rage" is the source to their pain...They haven't gotten better.
I am not trying to cause a NOCEBO....
This is just my observation!
Kalo
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 17:40:14
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| Whatever works for any individual is the best approach. |
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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 17:50:42
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I know Dr. Candace Pert and know her work well. Her Molecules of Emotion is based on what we think and do in real time...not ancient stuff unless we bring it into thought then it is as real to the nervous system as if it were still happening.
Digging up old garbage just makes you brain think it is till happening – living life in a rear view mirror is bound to cause a crash
Kalo I agree with your 100%.
We can wrap this work in 600 pages or make it rally simple:
1) We developed survival skills – beliefs and behaviors in childhood that cause us stress as adults – find them and change them
2) Many of us developed a negative bias to protect ourselves from future hurts – negativity is a fuzzy habit that is destructive!! Retrain ourselves to look for the best in everyone and situation
3) Thoughts and emotions are chemical storms in the brain – make sure you choose the chemicals in the storm so they are all supportive and calming.
4) Learn a set of skilled relaxation tools and do it at least twice a day
5) Go to sleep at night with a gratitude mantra – find at least 10 things |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 17:55:45
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| Rik you obviously have all the answers. I guess therapists such as Arlene Feinblatt and James Alexander and countless others have never had any success with depth psychology methods. That would be very interesting to them and their patients. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 18:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by RikR
4) Learn a set of skilled relaxation tools and do it at least twice a day
RikR, I did 2 years of skilled relaxation (90mn+/day) as taught by your colleague D.Wise and that did not resolve any of my symptoms. It is only when I started digging in the past and resolving issues that I started experiencing the pain cycle abruptly and move around. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 18:42:26
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| Dear pspa, I met with Arlene, none of her talks with me seemed to be really focused to the past unless they applied to me in the present. This doesn't mean that this was the way she applied it her tx to others. This was just my experience. She did once tell me that the people with one traumatic event or big thing like abuse in the past tended to get better faster once they resolved this within themselves (bc they were still carrying around with them in the now). I had an experience with one of these pts who was abused as a child . He hadn't told anyone about it for years, not even his wife and he suffered from this everyday in the present. Once he expressed this to a therapist and his wife, he felt like everything was off his chest, his cancer got better and is still in a remission from stage 4 colon cancer till today (several years later). |
Edited by - Ace1 on 03/26/2013 18:50:08 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 18:54:58
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Ace1, that may indeed have been the best approach for you and undoubtedly for others, but I know from other reading that Arlene is a big proponent of ISTDP, part of which at least may involve work with past experiences.
http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Intensive_Short_Term_Dynamic_Psychotherapy
The fundamental understanding of ISTDP is that when individuals experience emotional disturbances or trauma the event may result in wide array of emotions that the individual may not be able to adequately handle. This results in these unwanted emotions becoming repressed and avoided. Davanloo discovered that through time, certain events may rekindle these repressed emotions resulting in anxiety and defenses. The exacerbation of this anxiety and repressed emotions can create a variety of physical symptoms such as gastrointestinal problems, skin disorders, and chronic pain. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 03/26/2013 18:56:21 |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 07:49:46
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quote:
Originally posted by kalo
quote:
There is never going to be consensus on this issue but I guess we can continue to argue about it.
Sample discussion from 2005 in the context of Monte Heuftle's book.
Not trying to start an argument, but, seeing some of the members who have CURED themselves i.e. balto, ACE1 and many others who didn't need to go to therapy and find out what unconcious repressed rage was the cause of pain, makes me think that it's not ALWAYS the unconcious mind.
Truthfully, I lurk hear from time to time, and, I've seen people that have been on this forum for quite along time and are still trying to find what "unconcious reressed rage" is the source to their pain...They haven't gotten better.
I am not trying to cause a NOCEBO....
This is just my observation!
Kalo
kalo- your present current stressors that your having
can be discovered by finding out what your doing unconsciously
I don't know why people seem to not like that word
have you ever drove home wide awake and not remember later the drive- that was unconscious- the unconscious is there for a purpose
and theres never a need to hit that 1 big repression - its a combination. if you get it good though. im working on 1 now that I think is that big repression but Im healed by hitting all the stressors I was mindful and aware of to keep it simple
then I caught the unconscious acts ya know.
past and current
the current will always be where you want to focus to heal
but the past will show you how you was doing something wrong so you can fix a bad habit or a stressor or a past issue then see
you know past issues aren't real now, but they still exist in a lot of folks minds and bodys so we have to go there
in the imagination or subconscious.
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Edited by - eric watson on 03/27/2013 08:10:58 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 08:55:35
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| What Eric says is right. I always use that driving analogy with my patients. You are just not aware anymore bc its a habit. Thats the way I like to look at it. And like I say in my keys, the past may help you understand your now unconscious strained habits and why certain things bother you. I do think that the strain in the moment however is the cause of the pain in the moment. It however has so much momentum that in most people it cannot be reversed over night, but with practice. Eric I think a lot of people dont like the word unconscious bc we start to think of Dr. Sarno's model of this intellegent angry child that does things to stop you from repressing, which I do not feel is accurate in my opinion. However when presented in the manner above, I believe most people have no problem with the word. |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 09:03:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
What Eric says is right. I always use that driving analogy with my patients. You are just not aware anymore bc its a habit. Thats the way I like to look at it. And like I say in my keys, the past may help you understand your now unconscious strained habits and why certain things bother you. I do think that the strain in the moment however is the cause of the pain in the moment. It however has so much momentum that in most people it cannot be reversed over night, but with practice. Eric I think a lot of people dont like the word unconscious bc we start to think of Dr. Sarno's model of this intellegent angry child that does things to stop you from repressing, which I do not feel is accurate in my opinion. However when presented in the manner above, I believe most people have no problem with the word.
thanks Ace- you know I really had no issues back in my childhood
other than small stuff
but I love to go back and visit the times I lost not knowing then
how free in my mind I could have been
but yes thanks Ace |
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kalo
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 09:41:46
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Maybe you all can help me with this.
I HAVE never spilled my problems on an online site..
I currently live with two ELDERLY Parent's, and I am caregiving for them..
My Mom had a stroke a year ago and come her anniversary date she fell and broke her hip...She is in her late 80's and my Dad in her is middle 80's..
They had me LATE in life!
I am stuck in a part time job care giving for both and my Dad is just plain out mean....
As he said to me the other day he DIDN'T deserve kids like us. Meaning, my brother who is married and NEVER had kids, and me, who NEVER got married and had kids 
My brother and I have NEVER done anything wrong to him!!! NEVER, but, we didn't live life according to what he thought life is all about..
ACE, & Eric, I had a rough childhood...Learning problems, and a mild form of autism....
Got beat up at school, and when I graduated, I had high hopes, to make something out of myself...
But, those problems plagued me and I lost job after job after job...
I know CONCIOUSLY, what's bothering me...DAMN, I just don't know UNCONCIOUSLY what it is....
I was thinking of doing EMDR!!!
Thanks,
Kalo |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 09:58:26
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| In my opinion Kalo, your nervous system is very sensitve. And I think you need to build resistance in it (which to be honest is a very hard process, but doable if you keep practicing). Obviously you are angered by your dad, but try to put a link with your symptoms after you dad says something you dont like etc, Try to be conscious of these things and next time he does it try not to let it simulate your nerves, say your affirmations and desensitize yourself. You will want to react like you did, bc it is easier, but dont go with it and act the opposite once your aware. Affirmations really do help, but only over time after consistant use. Good Luck |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 10:01:07
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Ace1, I did experience that angry child inside. When I re-started Sarno seriously and started digging into bothersome events, I had the pain move around.
Like waking up one morning having excruciating pain in my knees (I never had pain in my knees before) then horrible back pain for an hour.
I have a tough time explaining this simply with the strain and habit theory. The "angry child" is an apt metaphor in this context. |
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Mind-Body chronic pain site
