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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2013 : 00:08:57
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Hello:
I’ve read in Dr Sarno’s work and on some posts here about TMS manifesting in sites of old injuries. But my question pertains to symptoms of very recent injuries. Do such symptoms often morph into more chronic TMS once the acute injury has essentially healed? Has anyone here experienced such a transformation? If so, it would help me if you could share that. (I've posted about this 2weeks ago here, but the situation has changed somewhat now that i've seen a doctor)
For starters, I’ve had many experiences with TMS, unrelated to any injuries or structural disorders. Once I understood and viscerally accepted that those were TMS, they tended to evaporate rather quickly. In fact, I can say that almost all my medical issues until now had boiled down to TMS in the long run. I’ve gotten pretty good at aborting these rather quickly. This forum has helped much with this...
What I now face is somewhat different in that I had an actual accident. I had fallen down some stairs about two months ago and hit my head on a stair quite hard as well as my chest.. I’ve been in much excruciating pain, mostly between the shoulder blades and stiff neck, Also experienced two major positional vertigo attacks since that accident. But now I simply get sensations of the floor moving under me --leading to terror I might fall again Enough to make me fear going places. Headaches upon waking as well. (possibly rebound headaches from taking painkillers the past two months?) I hadn’t gone to the ER nor seen a doctor about this until last week, hoping it would all resolve on its own, since I believed I had merely bruised (or fractured) a few ribs. Some of my friends were telling me I was risking a life of unremitting pain if I didn’t have it checked out in the ER, even though it had seemed to be healing slowly. I then started to panic, and the pain did in fact continue..as threatened.
I finally saw an internist last week, who was convinced that the whole pattern of pain and dizziness should resolve in ~6 months. He’s listed as having a subspecialty in musculoskeletal pain, so I kind of felt reassured. He said that the pain was in essence muscular, rather than spinal or neurological. He did a few neurological tests in the office. He did order complete x-rays (but not MRIs) of the cervical and thoracic spine as well as an MRI of the brain just to be sure. These all came back clean. His secretary told me that he (the doctor) told her if I continue to be in pain, I can see an orthopedist he can refer me to. (I guess to see if the healing can be made faster?) During my visit with him, he had also referred me to a psychiatrist. Possibly because I told him I was having flashbacks to my late wife’s cervical spinal fusion due to metastatic cancer. She passed away soon after that surgery, refusing all further treatment. I had also told him the frequency of stress-based “illnesses” in my past.
Here’s what I need help sorting out: For someone very prone to TMS, how likely is it that I’ve entered a phase where my worry about the actual “concussion” and the ensuing pain and dizziness coupled with the fear I had injured my spine (which it now seems I hadn’t) had insidiously morphed into TMS. I had never had back pain nor vertigo before this accident. After a fall, the fear of falling again is bound to make vertigo quite terrifying. From the point of view of the actual injury, the concussion-like symptoms of headaches and vertigo generally resolve within about three weeks, broken ribs within six weeks, and muscular/tendon pulls should not still be so painful after 9 weeks. Or at least, so I read… Since it’s entering the “chronic phase” and no damage has been shown so far on imaging tests, can I now assume this “encroaching chronicity” is due to the trauma of the event and fear of this very chronicity?
The alternative would be to go to the orthopedist, who would probably order MRIs of the spine (rather than the x-rays already done), and from what I’ve been reading here, all they could add in the way of info would be data (such as herniated discs, stenosis, etc..) which doesn’t cause shoulder blade pain, according to what I'm reading here.. I’m wondering what if anything such a consult could achieve given the workup already done by the internist? What can he do which the internist cannot do other than surgery?.
If you think this symptom cluster is likely TMS or have some knowledge about real injury turning into TMS shortly after it heals, please do share this here. My personal experience with TMS is that going to one doctor after another makes it far worse, unless they offer quick and unequivocal reassurance.
Thanks much:
-eliuri
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Edited by - eliuri on 03/06/2013 03:27:37 |
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 04:37:58
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I can't help you with an answer, only that my suspicion is that your symptoms are TMS.
One thing struck me in your symptoms: "But now I simply get sensations of the floor moving under me --leading to terror I might fall again".
I think I have a similar thing going on, I describe it as "walking on a waterbed". It also happens when I lie down. It feels weird but it doesn't frighten me as much as it used to, since I accepted it as being TMS. Does my description of your sensations match yours?
take care |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 04:53:49
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Hi eliuri,
I am sorry to hear of your many problems. It sounds to me that, based upon your recent physical injury and ensuing symptoms, you are not entirely convinced that you have TMS. I feel that it would be wise for you to have all these tests done to see what the doctors find. Up until now they have found nothing wrong, but you still fear there is something they they have not found yet. So, have the tests done to satisfy your own mind.
Let me remind you, however, that many of the people on this message board have TMS symptoms yet have not experienced a single injury. Let me also remind you that these doctors may find "something" and attribute that something as being the cause of your symptoms because they will not believe in TMS. At that point you will have to either accept what they tell you or believe you have TMS and do the work necessary for recovery.
Best wishes and keep us posted. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 08:33:04
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I don't know if real injury can trigger tms or not. Personally I think it can. I had hernia surgery long time ago. I remember for months I would feel pain around the surgery site and I keep thinking the surgeon forget some tools inside my body. The fear is so strong and the pain get worst and worst. I had it checked out and doctor said there is nothing wrong, my wound has healed nicely and I was just "worry" too much. I walked out of his office feeling much much better and within days the pain just disappear.
I also think the reverse thinking is true. If we have a real illness or injury and our mind is at peace, carefree, and if we don't think much of our injury, it would heal much faster. When I had tms/anxiety, A cold would bother me very much, it would last for weeks, but now I don't even think about it and it went away in 2 or 3 days. I also notice cuts and bruises healed much faster too.
I think with a strong mind, a carefree mentality, a belief that we are healthy and strong, our immune system work much better.
------------------------
No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 08:53:24
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a real injury triggered my tms- sarno says so too
yes we can change- go get the test and come back ok |
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Jim D.
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 10:50:22
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eliuri,
In his book Steven Ozanich refers to what you think is happening to you as Phase 2 TMS (a physical trigger involved with lingering pain)--a (probably) real injury that heals, but TMS takes over to prolong the pain and make the person afraid to undertake the activity that caused the pain. I have had this happen several times, and I think it is one of the most difficult aspects of TMS--namely, did I really injure myself and, if so, when has it healed? In your case, there is no question that you had an injury. But there is a question as to when it healed.
Some years ago I lost my balance on a streetcar and extended my hand to catch myself, bending my thumb beyond where it is supposed to go. It hurt like hell, and I went to a physical therapist, who gave me exercises to perform. After a few weeks, the pain continued, and I began to suspect TMS had taken over. Within a short time of realizing the probability that it was TMS (and I think "probability" is all we can ever say for sure), my thumb stopped hurting.
As luck would have it, I am right now dealing with a tennis elbow situation (yet again, as I have written on this issue several times, and--I am embarrassed to admit--I am quoted on the TMS Wiki as a tennis elbow sage, as if I had found the secret to this insidious affliction. As I first felt the pain this time while working out and as I knew that Steve Ozanich is a personal trainer, I e-mailed him about how to distinguish between actual injury and TMS. At one point he had a shoulder pain so severe that it took him six weeks to get back to exercising as he had before. Alas, there is no secret to telling "real" injury from TMS, but I think that those of us who are TMS-prone have to be on guard constantly as our brains are always searching for opportunities.
I just came in from shoveling snow (the first big storm I have encountered since moving into my new home two years ago). As I first picked up the shovel, I said to myself, "Oh, this is going to make that elbow act up again." Surprise, my elbow started aching. But now, a short time later, there is no pain. I think if it were still an elbow injury, the pain involved in tossing heavy snow would continue to be with me. On another occasion the pain moved suddenly from one elbow to the other. So I try to look for these inconsistencies as a sign that TMS is at work. Can you see any signs of that in your situation?
I wish you a full recovery. It does sound as if TMS is at work.
Jim |
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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 10:59:58
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Eric writes:
quote:
a real injury triggered my tms- sarno says so too
yes we can change- go get the test and come back ok
Thanks for your replies. Eric...was your TMS triggered directly after your injury? Did it sort of morph into your actual injury, or did it sneak up long after that?
I vaguely do recall reading somewhere about this happening directly after, though cant recall where I had read that. Would certainly wish to hear if this had happened to you or others.
I probably was unclear a bit in my post a bit. Im not being asked to take an further tests. The doctor I saw did assure me this should all resolve in a few months. I began to feel physically much better after that reassurance. He did order some tests, all of which I did take and they came back negative. The troubling message the secretary conveyed--when notifying me of those negative test results was that if still in pain, I can see an orthopedist. There was not any specific further testing he himself suggested. I told the secretary he had told me it should all heal gradually in a few months, so why see an orthopedist, and she said maybe to move it along faster. No talk about further testing needed. I did panic a bit while speaking to her and I asked her if the doctor was somehow "retracting" his reassurance of complete recovery though gradual he had made last week, and she said definitely not . That the test results confirmed it. The orthopedist thing was just an option in case the recovery was too painful. But it did seem enough to put some damper on that peace of mind which had been sinking in for a week..
In my post, I was wondering aloud what further testing an orthopedist might possibly do which would lead to any beneficial or reasonable treatment?
-eliuri |
Edited by - eliuri on 03/06/2013 11:22:27 |
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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 11:18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim D.
eliuri,
In his book Steven Ozanich refers to what you think is happening to you as Phase 2 TMS (a physical trigger involved with lingering pain)--a (probably) real injury that heals, but TMS takes over to prolong the pain and make the person afraid to undertake the activity that caused the pain. I have had this happen several times, and I think it is one of the most difficult aspects of TMS--namely, did I really injure myself and, if so, when has it healed? In your case, there is no question that you had an injury. But there is a question as to when it healed.
Some years ago I lost my balance on a streetcar and extended my hand to catch myself, bending my thumb beyond where it is supposed to go. It hurt like hell, and I went to a physical therapist, who gave me exercises to perform. After a few weeks, the pain continued, and I began to suspect TMS had taken over. Within a short time of realizing the probability that it was TMS (and I think "probability" is all we can ever say for sure), my thumb stopped hurting.
[SNIP] [SNIP]
I wish you a full recovery. It does sound as if TMS is at work.
Jim
OOops..Jim..So sorry..I hadnt seen your post before I posted just above. I'll re-read what you wrote carefully. I might have some further questions to you. I'll also see if I can find this phase 2 TMS in Steve Ozanich's book. I'll also try to find your posts on the Wiki, if i could locate where that is...
It might help me as well if Peter Ozanich might take a stab at this one. Not sure he still posts to this forum. Perhaps he can help me distinguish the physical from the TMS stuff as well...
Anyhow Jim..Thanks for sharing your experience .I'll think through what you posted..
-Eliuri |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 11:19:29
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| eliuri, it was the same for me. It started with a real chemical burn (some concentrated pool products I stupidly spilled on me). It healed at most of the places in 2 weeks except for that one spot. The pain just never stopped afterward. |
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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 11:33:03
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quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
I can't help you with an answer, only that my suspicion is that your symptoms are TMS.
One thing struck me in your symptoms: "But now I simply get sensations of the floor moving under me --leading to terror I might fall again".
I think I have a similar thing going on, I describe it as "walking on a waterbed". It also happens when I lie down. It feels weird but it doesn't frighten me as much as it used to, since I accepted it as being TMS. Does my description of your sensations match yours?
take care
Yes Gigolos. Thats pretty much how I'd describe it!! As if on a boat sort of...
It also varies much depending on the room I go in. which I find odd..
I'm not getting any more of those dramatic spinning spells (what's often called benign Positional Vertigo) while changing positions in bed...Keeping fingers crossed here on that..But I do frequently get that "walking on a waterbed" sensation. Might be the fear of falling again which is making it scary.. |
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 12:31:40
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The weird thing is, I don't think it is my equilibrium, but it is hard to tell. It feels like either my muscles are not feeding back everything, or every feedback signal is getting amplified too much which makes your brain overcompensate the motorsignals to the muscles to stablize your body. Maybe you could compare it to being afraid in a dark room; every little crackle gets amplified and you perceive it as a much harder sound than you would hear if you were comfortable.... so I think overcoming the fear is essential.
It depends where I am, how tensed I am, how fit I am. I can go to my sports club having the feeling, but once I work out it is almost gone, only to reappear when I am home again.
When I walk, the sensation is less on a sandy/uneven terrain than on asphalt.
Last night I challenged my mind to give it its best shot. "ooh, that feels nice, but is that all you got?? Come on then, this is pethatic".
I think it is something that just needs time to dissappear. I wish you the best in your recovery.
ps. I had the spinning sensations a year ago, at that time I had an incredible stiff and painful neck. It is a known fact that painful neck muscles (trigger points) can be responsible for causing these sensations. I have seen it too with a colleague of mine. When his neck got better the spinning also dissappeared. |
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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 14:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
The weird thing is, I don't think it is my equilibrium, but it is hard to tell. It feels like either my muscles are not feeding back everything, or every feedback signal is getting amplified too much which makes your brain overcompensate the motorsignals to the muscles to stablize your body. Maybe you could compare it to being afraid in a dark room; every little crackle gets amplified and you perceive it as a much harder sound than you would hear if you were comfortable.... so I think overcoming the fear is essential.
It depends where I am, how tensed I am, how fit I am. I can go to my sports club having the feeling, but once I work out it is almost gone, only to reappear when I am home again.
[SNIP] [SNIP]
Thanks so much gigalos. Some of what you're saying seems to fit. My entire sensory system has been intensely amplifying everything since that fall. Especially when I began to panic that I will never heal from it. I tend to amplify all sensations when under severe stress or panic.
The "waterbed effect" you speak of has so far been happening mostly in the kitchen which is actually tilted slightly from the horizontal. I actually measured the height of the tiles along the perimeter and lo and behold the room is and always has been tilted (as is the stairway where I had the fall) There are also partially detached tiles on the floor which in reality do move a bit up and down when one walks on them. Those don't bother me, because I know what the sensation is coming from. But this might be how my body learned to produce the sensation of moving up and down in a floaty sort of way.
It seems I now habitually walk with my head facing the ground, for fear of falling. So this might be amplifying the signals of imbalance. I'll try to keep my head upright in that room now and see if that improves. I had noticed that when I do Tai Chi (which i can only do in the kitchen because its large enough) I don't get this "waterbed" type of vertigo. I've never lost balance during Tai Chi since the accident even though I do this frequently. This may be because the rules of the Tai Chi form require you to keep your head level with torso and eyes straight ahead. So it's worth exploring if it gets easier if I stop looking at the floor while walking. It'll be a long time i'm afraid, that I'll be able to do that walking down the stairs.
It's oddly reassuring that this might all be related to muscles in the neck. Helps me to consolidate the various issues here. I've always had tension headaches of sorts. I vaguely recollect that it's believed many tension headaches involve muscles in the neck.. Though I never had neck pain before. The tension headaches had gone away long ago when I came to understand the emotional basis for them. A few weeks after the fall, I started to get these daily, but much worse than before. They do usually go away with a strong cup of coffee..which does tell me something...
I'll try holding my neck more normally for a while and see if this helps much. I have a student coming over in a few days and I'll ask him to walk around the neighborhood with me, in case I fear falling. I'll try that too without fixing gaze on the ground. I have to keep reminding myself "My neck is not broken" The x-rays proved that. There's just muscle tension there or maybe a few things got pulled which have not healed completely yet either for physical or emotional reasons.Maybe even because I'm unconsciously holding my head in tensed positions Anyhow, thanks so much for putting forth this possible etiology..Will let you know how it goes...
-Eliuri |
Edited by - eliuri on 03/06/2013 14:44:00 |
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Jim D.
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 15:07:41
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eliuri,
Your internist sounds sensible, leaning toward accepting the TMS outlook on pain. I suggest you try not to be disturbed by the offer of seeing an orthopedist, thinking that might help your injury heal faster. I'm not even sure what that means. My guess would be that seeing this doctor might make things worse. Orthos are taught, after all, to find something structurally wrong and fix it. It would seem that you are coming to the realization that whatever was structurally wrong has healed and has now morphed into TMS. This forum is filled with messages from people who have spent years going from doctor to doctor trying to cover every base and sure that the next one would really explain their pain. I have a relative who is one of those people, but, I'm sorry to say, will not listen to any psychogenic origin for pain, and I'm often amazed at some of the explanations this person has been given.
I saw an orthopedist for my original TMS (back pain), and he sent me to a physical therapist, who did the usual: ultrasound, special exercises, massage, the whole bit. After a few weeks of this, I was still reporting to her that my back had not improved; finally she got really angry with me, suggesting that I was not following the exercise routine (of course she didn't know about my TMS-inspired need to please her and to succeed in the endeavor--I was carrying out the routine perfectly!). I passively accepted her unprofessional behavior, then went back to my office and cancelled the remaining appointments. I never heard another word from her. It was not long afterward that I happened upon Dr. Sarno's Healing Back Pain while browsing in a Barnes & Noble.
You can read my previous posts on this forum or on TMSWiki by doing a search for "tennis elbow."
Jim |
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 15:50:56
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I think it is a good idea to try to walk with someone next to you. I started doing groceries with someone and eventually dared to do it on my own. Change your mantra to "my neck is allright", it sounds more positive. :) Decondition yourself to decrease the fear.
Triggerpoints (little muscle spasms/knots = TMS at work in my opinion) in the sternocleidomasteoid or high in the trapezius are notorious for causing vertigo and head aches. The pain between the shoulder blades are probably other tp's in your trapezius. Tp-treatment could be benificial to take away the worst pain (I am cursing in church here..), but there is the risk that it negatively influences your belief that there is a big tms-factor at work. You will probably only get some temporary relief at most if you don't do the necessary mind work.
I have a good feeling about you improving, but give it time. Take care and keep me updated, there are not many people I know that recognize the waterbed feeling... |
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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 17:23:30
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Jim wrote:
quote:
So I try to look for these inconsistencies as a sign that TMS is at work. Can you see any signs of that in your situation?
That was a very astute suggestion. I am finding many weird things in how this two month saga has played itself out. Especially how things took a turn for the worse when some online acquaintance of mine told me I'll have a lifetime of pain if I don't go to the ER right away, after I had told her I had been healing quite nicely here on my own. I was actually quite proud of how I had approached it, though in retrospect it backfired on me. She kept messaging me to go immediately to the ER, etc...She meant well, but it had a horrible effect on my healing.
I had absolutely no neck pain at all, just shoulder blade pain and some lower down where I assumed I had broken or bruised my ribs. (The latter went away as expected..) ) Until I contacted my brother last week and told him about the accident and my fears about it. I told him I was baffled why my back would be hurting since I fell on my forehead and chest, and my back never hit anything. He said: "Arent you aware that the head is connected to the neck?" He implied I could've broken my spine just by my head hitting concrete. I got panicky--just hearing him say "NECK"--- and the next morning awoke with a very bad neck ache. Totally new symptom in all this. That was last week. two months into the ordeal.. Although I had been thinking a lot about my late wife's neck fusion surgery throughout it all. When it does hurt now, its exactly at the point in the neck where she had the fusion surgery and feels like a knife cutting through..
This neck pain did go away the next day. Back to shoulder blade pain, which is far more tolerable than neck pain for me. I said nothing to the doctor about neck pain. Because except for that one morning I had no neck pain. Though I do realize that either of these can be referred/reflected from the other..When I looked at the X-ray and brain MRI referral form he had written, it did say : "Fall with neck pain and dizziness" . I wondered why he wrote neck pain. Was upset that he wrote that even though I hadn't told him of that. Next day , the neck pain returned. It's still here..Darn..
I've also noticed the shoulder blade pain can quickly shift from left side to the right. It's usually on the right side, but when I notice the oddity of its being on the left, it sort of glides back to the right side...as if the pain feels it "belongs there". Perhaps this too is explanable in terms of neuromuscular damage of sorts, but it sure feels weird and reminiscent of several of the TMS experiences I've had in the past.
I'm noticing a number of such oddities when I reflect on how I've handled this crisis and when I consider the timeline as to how the symptoms unfolded.
I'm different from many here in that I've not found exercises to hinder TMS progress at all as long as I don't see it as a medical intervention for structural damage. Years ago I was instructed by a medical doctor to do Tai Chi and Qi Gong for my TMS stuff. She actually understood TMS very well, though I doubt she knew what that expression meant. Pretty much everything she guided me in matched with Sarno's approach, except for the exercise parts, which I've found very helpful. She helped guide me through most of my TMS ailments and knew intuitively how to sort out structural from emotional stuff Unfortunately, this doctor is deceased.
I'd actually like to try Gigalos trigger-point kind of thing for at least the interim if only to restore a sense of balance in my walking so I can get back to normal life again. It might also help confirm the muscular nature of what ails me now. So I can continue assuring myself that nothing is permanently broken. I've taken way too many pain killers over the past two months and I'm afraid I might be getting rebound headaches from those. So if theres a way for pain relief besides the NSAIDs and coffee, it's worth trying. I might ask this doctor as to how I might access some form of this or ask around about it. Not sure how open he would be to that or if my insurance covers it (doubtful..) In my case , I highly doubt that such interventions to relieve pain and balance would hinder TMS recovery in case it really is TMS, and would actually help me ascertain the TMS nature of much of this. Since I believe trigger points are a form TMS.
As for the doctor i saw last week, I think he might be of two minds about this whole thing. I wasn't a patient of his until then, and he initially took more of an interest in my mental health than the symptoms I was describing. I was insulted that he did send me to a psychiatrist (who never help even with psych stuff..) but i sort can see why he did that. His message about possibly seeing an orthopedist--as relayed by the secretary- may have been perfunctory because that's the party-line way of doing things. He had already done his part in assessing it and running the appropriate tests and being satisfied with the results, yet I was still in pain.. So perhaps I should take his reassurance of a complete recovery in a matter of a few months as well as his emphasis that the pain is of muscular origin and not some weird disc thing- as his sincere medical assessments...I wish I could be more sure, but...
Thanks to both you.
-eliuri
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Edited by - eliuri on 03/06/2013 17:36:01 |
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2013 : 08:43:15
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quote:
I'd actually like to try Gigalos trigger-point kind of thing for at least the interim if only to restore a sense of balance in my walking so I can get back to normal life again. It might also help confirm the muscular nature of what ails me now.
Eliuri, I think there can be one or both of two mechanisms at work:
1) Triggerpoints in MSC or trapezius for any pain or vertigo.
2) Overcompensation of the neural system to keep you stable.
Only if it is the first you're suffering from TP-(self)treatment could lead to some improvement. So don't get your hopes up too high. Hope to read the outcome here... |
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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2013 : 16:18:33
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quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
[SNIP]
Eliuri, I think there can be one or both of two mechanisms at work:
1) Triggerpoints in MSC or trapezius for any pain or vertigo.
2) Overcompensation of the neural system to keep you stable.
Only if it is the first you're suffering from TP-(self)treatment could lead to some improvement. So don't get your hopes up too high. Hope to read the outcome here...
Hi again, Gigalos. Would you kindly explain item (2) above. Not sure if you mean that the pain is an overcompensation to keep me stable or the "floating floor" effect is such an overcompensation. Or maybe something else entirely. So if you can elaborate, I might be able to discern better...
Some interesting things have been happening--not sure how enduring though--using what you had written a few days ago as well as using Jim D's suggestion about looking for strange inconsistencies in patterns as well as some "experiments" of my own. I'll wait a bit longer to see how that unfolds and post back here on those.
Thanks again for taking an interest
-eliuri
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2013 : 18:25:06
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Ofcourse I can... I was not very clear, I admit..
What I tried to say is that I think the sense of instability could originate from two different mechanisms.
The first is that of your equilibrium organ. This could well be originating from tp's in the MSC or trapezius muscles.
What I meant with the second one is, as we already discussed, that in some way the brain is oversensitive for the feedback that some muscles, wish I knew which ones, are sending to the brain and therefore it kinda overcompensates its motorsignals to the muscles. The body therefore can't find a proper balance and makes you kinda sway/swing. (just a theory which I use to explain the feeling I personally experience). For example, when it was at its worst with me, I could literally see myself rocking back to front when I stood straight. Some physical therapists see this as a sign for an instable SI-joint, but nowadays I think that's bull. I also noticed it when I climbed the stairs; I could see my legs bend and straighten slightly as if it couldn't find a stable position. As you can see, I still have trouble explaining the feeling, so therefore I use the 'walking on a waterbed' analogy. :) In short what I wanted to point out is if that is the cause in your situation, TP-treatment would not improve it, only following the TMS key will.
I didn't even consider that pain could be messing up the signals to and from the muscles, which is an effect that was recently proven if I am correct. However, I do not really see a correlation between my pain levels and the waterbed/floating floor effect.
I have improved this week, still considering the waterbed feeling a TMSymptom, see how it develops in future.
I am very interested to read what you have been up to.. can't wait frankly  |
Edited by - gigalos on 03/09/2013 18:30:52 |
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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2013 : 21:30:30
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Hi Gigalos:
Several things have happened since Wednesday. I guess some combination of these gives me more hope its not serious damage
Shortly after your post here about the SCM trigger points, I located a few of those along the SCM muscle. Pressing on some of those along the neck muscle triggered the shoulder-blade pain instantly. I did press those hard, and there seemed to be some measure of relief. I really know very little about this and have no skill in it. but I did tinker with those TP's as well as one or two others on the trapezius that I was able to locate. There were some changes for the better. It began to reinforce the notion that muscular tightness/tension (TMS), rather than neurological damage was the major source of the pain. Possibly of the vertigo as well, but this is still questionable in my mind.
The vertigo did lift as well, but I'm not sure the lifting was a result of the TPs. When I noticed that all vertigo was (transiently) gone, I finally felt safe and strong enough to mop the floor. Given the way things had been going, this was a big deal for me. Because it involves much bending in ways that induce that waterbed effect. I pushed it further by going up and down that stairway twice. My instinct--since the accident-- had been to grasp the railing, but I felt steady enough not to, so I did that for the bottom few steps where it felt safer.
I took a long hard look at the step which had been broken, and it occurred to me that my kids or those of the neighbor could've broken their necks falling down!!! But instead of rage at the negligent landlord who had recently fixed it only to cover his a__-, I now felt my fall may have had some redeeming purpose as that stumbling block had now been fixed. So it wasn't just some pathetic accident that befell me while taking down the trash. At least that's what went thru my mind then. It was this realization that began the lifting of my feelings.
I suddenly felt depression lifting from me. When I awoke the next morning , my neck felt like a yoke had been lifted from it. It felt lighter and smoother--back to the way it used to feel before the accident. Not just pain free, but light. A way it has not been at all since I fell. My son told me that I seemed so much better physically. I try not to speak to the kids much about this, but he did note that. A dramatic lifting of depression before TMS gets better is familiar to my personal experience with it.
There was a gushing forth of very strong feelings and strong urge to listen to my favorite music, while preparing the lesson for my student. I did review some of the inconsistencies and oddities that Jim D. had suggested as a way of discerning TMS-like pattern. I found more of those. Some quite striking. I'm itching to get back to work, but I'm still too scared because of the vertigo and fear of falling. Not fear of pain, but fear of falling. Pain wont kill me, but falling again after a recent concussion can be very bad news.
Unlike others here, I do not think of exercises or techniques as hindering TMS recovery. As long as those exercises aren't postulated on having some disease or structural damage, but rather as a way to begin restoring some internal harmony which had been thrown out of kilter. Eventually those too can be dispensed with, but only after some tranquility and harmony has been restored.
Sadly the pain returned that night as I feared it would, but the timing was noteworthy. It was not when I actually left the house to go shopping at the big market with my student accompanying me, but just as I was preparing to do so. (anticipatory anxiety?) There was no vertigo this time, only pain. That trip did go smoothly though.
When the vertigo returned that night, I tried another experiment. I have low-dose Diazepam (Valium) from ~15 years ago from when I used to be prescribed that med. I often take only half a tab, to ease anxiety attacks. Possibly does little at that dose. So I tried to double that and took 5 mg tab. Within about an hour, the vertigo totally disappeared. These pills must be quite weak by now, given that theyre way past the shelf life...The "valium" test has so far worked three times in a row. That too is temporary. bu my purpose here is to ascertain the TMS aspect of all this..
Diazepam--at this dose--is probably merely a mild sedative and/or muscle relaxer. It's not a pain killer. Sadly, I did learn later that it IS used for vertigo, but mostly it seems for the psychogenic kind. And the benzo of choice is Klonazipam, not Diazepam. And of course, the fear that this is all placebo is always there..
Gigalos wrote:
"
What I meant with the second one is, as we already discussed, that in some way the brain is oversensitive for the feedback that some muscles, wish I knew which ones, are sending to the brain and therefore it kinda overcompensates its motorsignals to the muscles."
"
Hard for me to say which of those two it is. Very possibly both.. Of course my brain would logically be searching or scanning for feedback-muscular or visual- about the stability of the floor below me, since the ground did literally slide out from under me when I had set foot on that loose step. The waterbed sensation is a bit akin to that when stepping on a wobbly tile, except that it has more of a "floating" quality to it. There r many such loose tiles in that kitchen. But it makes sense for the brain to be sending such false signals even while on solid ground. So perhaps my whole system is "oversentitized" to this.. I'm guessing. The little that I did discover with my amateurish trigger-point probes tells me those TPs are probably at work here as well.
I had used this approach many years ago to convince myself that my TMJ-toothaches were really TMJ. I was able to induce those, by triggering them from points in the masseter muscles. Thereby it helped me get rid of the TMJ and the toothaches because I realized it was all inner tension.. I still use that "test"---to distinguish real toothaches from TMS- and it seems reliable. So I see the probing I'm doing now as a very early phase in the TMS work.
I've read that the "Post-Concussion Syndrome" which i guess some of what I'm going through now is called, is a much debated phenomenon. Some claiming it to be brain injury which has not yet healed; others claim its mostly psychogenic. With time the emotional component of it becomes more pronounced than the physical. But since I'm such a TMS-type person, I'd expect those emotional components to take on variousphysical guises. Especially since many of those symptoms (such as the vertigo and the quality of the headaches) seem reenactments of the original trauma as well as flashbacks to several earlier ones. Balto is probably right that real physical healing as well as TMS healing require peace of mind and tranquility. I had in fact been healing nicely, until my "friends" terrorized me for not doing it the "right way' by going to the ER, where of course the mood is very hopeful and tranquil....But they did mean well, and I should let go of this too..
In the past , when I'd read of disorders named:"Post--XXXXX Syndrome" or other, my mind would say: Probably some TMS thingie. But since I'm such a skeptic, I'm not yet ready to call what I now have "Post-Concussion TMS"...Though it would be interesting to confirm this, I'd think
Anyhow..Thank you so much Gigalos for bringing up the trigger point possibility, its connection to neck muscles, and describing the waterbed effect...Sorry I rambled on so long, but I guess I can now blame such things on the "Post-Concussion Syndrome"
-Eliuri
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Edited by - eliuri on 03/10/2013 05:49:02 |
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2013 : 07:55:51
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Wow, that was a monster post  I cannot react without creating a monster too...
quote:
Sadly the pain returned that night as I feared it would, but the timing was noteworthy. It was not when I actually left the house to go shopping at the big market with my student accompanying me, but just as I was preparing to do so. (anticipatory anxiety?) There was no vertigo this time, only pain. That trip did go smoothly though.
I strongly feel it was anticipatory. I have weak legs when I prepare for table tennis. Once I push through and start playing, they get much stronger. I think this was an important trip for you and you should be proud of yourself having jumped this psychological hurdle.
quote:
I really know very little about this and have no skill in it. but I did tinker with those TP's as well as one or two others on the trapezius that I was able to locate.
A nice affirmation of TMS. Killing those tp's completely can take a while, as you can see it as a spiderweb of tp's that keep each other ignited. The art is to locate the two or three most important and treat them everyday, the others will dissappear when they die out. But, as said, TMS is the instigator here, lowering your stress/anxiety is a condition to be able to remove those tp's for good.
My technique is to give moderate pressure on a tp, at about 60-70% of what you can handle. Then I am just patiently awaiting it to die out or relieve to a point that it won't get better. For the SMC i think a massage is the best method, taking the muscle between your fingers and giving it about 8 strokes along the tp location of the muscle. Maybe you could ask your son to help with one or two tp's in your trapezius, as they are more difficult to reach...just let him push his middle finger on it. Or you could use a bouncy ball that he pushes with his hand.
Another tip is to not tinker too much, as it will not improve further and it will divert yourself from other, more important things. Do it two times a day at most and leave it alone for the rest of the day, even when it flares up. I will look in my databank if I have some digital info for you on tp treatment.
quote:
I suddenly felt depression lifting from me. When I awoke the next morning , my neck felt like a yoke had been lifted from it. It felt lighter and smoother--back to the way it used to feel before the accident. Not just pain free, but light. A way it has not been at all since I fell. My son told me that I seemed so much better physically. I try not to speak to the kids much about this, but he did note that. A dramatic lifting of depression before TMS gets better is familiar to my personal experience with it.
quote:
When the vertigo returned that night, I tried another experiment. I have low-dose Diazepam (Valium) from ~15 years ago from when I used to be prescribed that med. I often take only half a tab, to ease anxiety attacks. Possibly does little at that dose. So I tried to double that and took 5 mg tab. Within about an hour, the vertigo totally disappeared. These pills must be quite weak by now, given that theyre way past the shelf life...The "valium" test has so far worked three times in a row. That too is temporary. bu my purpose here is to ascertain the TMS aspect of all this..
Diazepam--at this dose--is probably merely a mild sedative and/or muscle relaxer. It's not a pain killer. Sadly, I did learn later that it IS used for vertigo, but mostly it seems for the psychogenic kind. And the benzo of choice is Klonazipam, not Diazepam. And of course, the fear that this is all placebo is always there..
I think that anything that relaxes muscles/lowers anxiety, even if it is placebo, also gives relieve to the effect of any tp's. I would abstain from Diazepam as much as you can to build confidence that you can decrease the vertigo by pure mind power. Give it time, accept it, be patient, you will come out a stronger person.
quote:
I had used this approach many years ago to convince myself that my TMJ-toothaches were really TMJ. I was able to induce those, by triggering them from points in the masseter muscles. Thereby it helped me get rid of the TMJ and the toothaches because I realized it was all inner tension.. I still use that "test"---to distinguish real toothaches from TMS- and it seems reliable. So I see the probing I'm doing now as a very early phase in the TMS work.
That is a good test in my opinion... I recognize this, although with me it was the temporalis muscle. I praise the day I discovered them :)
PCS: if you ask me, it sounds like a psychogenic measure of the brain to protect yourself when recovering, but it should dissappear once most of the healing has been done. When it lingers, I think you are on the right track with a definition called post-concussion TMS or just post-traumatic TMS.
I feel you are on the right track and am happy for you. Let me (us) know how you are progressing.  |
Edited by - gigalos on 03/10/2013 07:57:52 |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2013 : 12:15:14
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quote:
Originally posted by eliuri
Eric writes:
quote:
a real injury triggered my tms- sarno says so too
yes we can change- go get the test and come back ok
Thanks for your replies. Eric...was your TMS triggered directly after your injury? Did it sort of morph into your actual injury, or did it sneak up long after that?
I vaguely do recall reading somewhere about this happening directly after, though cant recall where I had read that. Would certainly wish to hear if this had happened to you or others.
I probably was unclear a bit in my post a bit. Im not being asked to take an further tests. The doctor I saw did assure me this should all resolve in a few months. I began to feel physically much better after that reassurance. He did order some tests, all of which I did take and they came back negative. The troubling message the secretary conveyed--when notifying me of those negative test results was that if still in pain, I can see an orthopedist. There was not any specific further testing he himself suggested. I told the secretary he had told me it should all heal gradually in a few months, so why see an orthopedist, and she said maybe to move it along faster. No talk about further testing needed. I did panic a bit while speaking to her and I asked her if the doctor was somehow "retracting" his reassurance of complete recovery though gradual he had made last week, and she said definitely not . That the test results confirmed it. The orthopedist thing was just an option in case the recovery was too painful. But it did seem enough to put some damper on that peace of mind which had been sinking in for a week..
In my post, I was wondering aloud what further testing an orthopedist might possibly do which would lead to any beneficial or reasonable treatment?
-eliuri
eliuri- Did it sort of morph into your actual injury?
[/quote] Eric- thats exactly what it did- and it got worse and worse with pain. real pain.
its talked about in the beginning pages of healing back pain. Sarno
sudden onset is what its called
the dr told you right- do the tms program , give it a few months and see how it goes- you can only get good positive energy and healing chemicals triggered all in your body at worst. |
Edited by - eric watson on 03/10/2013 12:20:35 |
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Post-injury TMS due to recent fall?
