| Author |
 Topic  |
|
RikR
USA
94 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2013 : 08:57:29
|
I am sure I am not the only one confused buy the divergent paths taught to recover from TMS. This video makes really good sense but to my thoughts it is not in alignment with Sarno and many other authors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPo31h5baUE
I appreciate your thoughts!! |
|
|
pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 09:44:01
|
| I went through exactly what you are going through now, worrying about all the inconsistencies and trying to reconcile them or figure out which version was right or wrong. Eventually i came to realize that there are different paths to the same goal and no universal one that works for everyone. Instead of analyzing, choose what resonates the most with you and see if it helps. Or incorporate different elements from different approaches. One person may benefit the most from deep psychological work another more from mindfulness based stress reduction. The endless debates seem beside the point now but for a long time i agonized about them. it isnt a matter of is Sarno right or wrong its more is there something in his aproach that will help me or is there a better path for my particular situation? Its like asking which is right or better Christianity or Buddhism? Depends on the person. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 02/24/2013 09:49:01 |
 |
|
|
RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 09:49:26
|
Thanks PSPA
And even all the programs sill omit some very critical steps to calming and retraining the nervous system |
|
|
|
pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 09:56:18
|
| Rik what i found frustrating as a newbie was that some of the people who were advocating particular dogmas or approaches were doing so with a very authoritative air as if they had all the answers. And when the messages are inconsistent that is confusing as hell. But you need to look past that and just take each persons ideas for what they may be worth to you. There is no absolute right or wrong here and eventually you develop the confidence to see that. |
|
|
|
pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 10:05:15
|
I've always been of the opinion that the thinking clean and the being aware of your emotions in the current moment come first and if no progress is made then it is worth delving deeping into regressed issues. I'm sure what Monte is getting at is that it is a big back to front digging deep for this big regressed emotion that may or may not be there if all the while we are not actually practising actions that help calm our nervous systems and restore balance.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
|
|
|
|
MatthewNJ
USA
691 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 10:11:18
|
RIGHT ON PSPA
I totally agree. There are many ways to get there. Use the one that works for you. We were just discussing Monte on the TMS Peer support chat. Some folks don't like his approach. Another person felt he was wonderful. AWESOME! Different strokes for different folks. use what works FOR YOU. If Monte works for you GO FOR IT. If not, so be it, I am sure he won't take it personally!
Lucky for us, there are LOTS of approaches to TMS.
Personally I have been successful, by taking little pieces from many different approaches. I am a patient of Dr. Sarno. He is not the end all be all of TMS. Nor did he ever claim to be. AND after a year he could no longer help me and referred me to a therapist!
Bottom line is this
I believe, for the most part you have to stop treating the symptoms and treat the cause.
That said, sometimes I don't get to the cause, yet I still feel and am able to release the energy that is negative and causing my discomfort.
Sounds easy I know, but I have been practicing for 9 years now, and I never intend to stop.
Matthew
Ferretsx3@comcast.net
--------------------
Less activated, more regulated and more resilient. |
|
|
|
shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 10:23:29
|
RikR,
My position is go with what works for you, BUT stick with it and be patient as healing takes time. One of the common problems is we begin a new method and after just a couple of weeks we give up as we don't see the results we expected. We then quickly move onto something else and repeat the same pattern over again. The end result is a lot of frustration. Trust me, I have been there and done that.
I will point out once again that Ace's keys are not meant to override or supplant Dr Sarno's teachings, as Ace himself recommends reading Sarno's books and credits the good doctor for his recovery. He has stated this numerous times on this message board. Much of Ace's keys are based upon 5000 year old mindfulness / spiritual practice which can compliment any treatment modality, so in that sense they are not Ace's keys, but are teachings which have a long history.
I wish all people on this message board health and wholeness no matter what path they choose to follow. I offer my own personal advice based upon my lived experience, but I am well aware that I don't have all the answers.
|
Edited by - shawnsmith on 02/24/2013 10:25:06 |
|
|
|
gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 10:46:46
|
thnx for this link, very interesting.
In the evolution of the mindbody theory (and many other theories), there is a pioneer that recognizes a certain pattern and comes up with a set of directions to get you to the endzone (Sarno). Lots of people develop these directions further by adding details or slight changes to them. Once and a while someone stands up and adds major changes or finds out that a large portion of the directions are unneccesary and cuts it out. Time will tell who comes up with the best set of directions that will send you in an approximately straight line to the endzone. We could end up with a couple of theories though that proove to be equally effective or it might depend on the patient what works best. Even in a non-empiric science like math there are different methods to generate the same answer for a problem.
I personally feel that digging in the past can be helpful for recognizing patterns in behaviour/thinking and maybe even understand why you developed those patterns, but that the essence (and work) is changing those patterns in the present. I also feel that this might not be the case for everyone and that some things in the past just need to be dealt with for a person to be able to change a certain pattern in thinking. |
|
|
|
MatthewNJ
USA
691 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 11:01:25
|
What an AWESOME thread this is!
Matthew
Ferretsx3@comcast.net
--------------------
Less activated, more regulated and more resilient. |
|
|
|
gailnyc
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 11:39:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
Rik what i found frustrating as a newbie was that some of the people who were advocating particular dogmas or approaches were doing so with a very authoritative air as if they had all the answers. And when the messages are inconsistent that is confusing as hell. But you need to look past that and just take each persons ideas for what they may be worth to you. There is no absolute right or wrong here and eventually you develop the confidence to see that.
Pspa, you are so so so so so right about this. I so wish people would be less dogmatic about their views. As a newcomer, it can be almost as hard to get past their dogma as it is to get past a doctor's white coat pronouncements. One thing I found it really hard to get past was this nonsense that you had to believe 100% in TMS or else never be cured. This statement makes TMS sound like a cult and Dr. Sarno its guru. I am opposed to worshipping people and whenever I read about this need for "belief" it turned me off.
However, I did find that becoming more aware of my emotions, and the emotions I didn't want to deal with, did help me focus less on the pain, and allowed my nervous system to calm down. Whenever the pain went down, I "believed" a little bit more. I am still not at 100% but I have witnessed the great power of the mind and I do believe in that.
|
|
|
|
shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 11:55:27
|
I want you to consider a scenario which we may have all encountered at one time. Imagine you're standing in a very long line at a coffee shop and the line does not seem to be moving very fast. You begin to feel impatient, your symptoms start becoming more intense and you just want to get out of there. What do you do? Do you leave the line or do you remain in it? If you remain in it, then how do you make the current moment easier on yourself? Remember, I am not talking about the cessation of symptoms here, I am talking about making the situation you find yourself a lot easier for you.
As I see it, you have tools at your disposal which have been extensively discussed on this forum, and are straight forward. The first one is Dr. Sarno's 12 daily reminders, which can be viewed at the following url: www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
These reminders are, in fact, affirmations, which you can silently repeat to yourself with a view reducing some of your tension while you wait.
Ace, who is also a physician, has also provided tools for those who find themselves in such a situation and they compliment, not contradict, what Dr. Sarno is trying to tell us, which is there is nothing to fear and there is no need to re-act with panic. The keys can be viewed here: http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7765
What Ace does is provide us with mindfulness practices which help us to remain in the moment which in turn is instrumental in reducing tension or strain. Don't see them as being contradictory to Sarno's reminders, but just broadening them out and making them a bit more concrete.
No one wants to suffer, and both Dr Sarno and Ace have provided us with tools to reduce this suffering and, if patiently applied, will lead us to health and wholeness. Don't see their respective work as either / or, but complimentary. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 02/24/2013 11:57:18 |
|
|
|
pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 13:15:34
|
| Gail when someone has found something that helps them its natural for them to believe it has universal application and to become dogmatic about it. I think its all well intentioned. But i think the truth is that just as no single diet is the best way for everyone to lose weight, no one approach is best for all pain with psychogenic origin. We are never going to have a consensus on the merits of distraction theory or the existence vel non ofunconscious rage or whether tms is anxiety or whatever. But one need not let such things distract from the bigger task which is to find what resonates with oneself and apply it. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 02/24/2013 13:17:08 |
|
|
|
shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 15:48:35
|
| Well stated Pspa123. I have also said the same thing many times on this forum. There are many paths to healing. Embrace your choice of path, become committed to it, truly believe it, be patient with it and it will work for you. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 02/24/2013 15:51:03 |
|
|
|
Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 17:11:07
|
| Hi Shawn believe it or not I wrote the keys before I ever read eckhart tolle. I came to those conclusions the hard way, on my own with a lot of trial and failure. However, although he uses different terms and labels it basically states what we have to do and when I heard the audio cd I said this is good, I'd better recommend it. The affirmations are tools that help us achieve these goals better and deeper. The urge to just be done with what we are doing and to go on to the next task is the number one cause of tms and everything is compounded on top of this. It is so ingrained that most will not see it even when they are told that it is there. It took me a long time to see this and figure this out through deductive reasoning. It also explains why our society has a lot of back pain but it is non-existent in the tribal community. |
|
|
|
shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 17:28:52
|
| I believe it Ace because many people who have suffered, and then become fed up with their suffering, discover these truths on their own before they become exposed to any another other teachings. Byron Katie, who is now a well known mindfulness teacher, is one of those people. She knew nothing of zen Buddhism or other mindfulness teachings, but she came to a very low point in her life in which she almost didn't make it. Ekhart has a similar story. Some people have to suffer a lot before they come to the reality of what they need to do before they can emerge from their suffering. If they are not ready there is nothing anyone can tell them and they will have to discover it on their own. |
|
|
|
chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2013 : 17:30:17
|
This is a great thread, I agree with everyone. I have learned a lot from it.
|
|
|
|
balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2013 : 07:48:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
Rik what i found frustrating as a newbie was that some of the people who were advocating particular dogmas or approaches were doing so with a very authoritative air as if they had all the answers.
I made this mistake all the time pspa. I've considered myself "cured" and I wanted to help as many as I can. When I first got better, I was so sure that my "way" to heal is the answer for all tmser's and often time I let my ego get in the way and keep pushing people to adopt it. I now know there are many way to heal and people all heal in a different way. We tmsers are a very diverse group of people.
I now just want to make suggestions and tell people what have helped me. We all have to find our own way of healing. As long as we keep believing, we will find it one day.
------------------------
No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
|
|
|
MatthewNJ
USA
691 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2013 : 15:00:33
|
I started with Dr. Sarno. He sent me to Dr. Evans. I have tried many methods since (10 years now). I take from each that which works for ME.
what it comes down to is this
-1- You have to realize you have an issue that is not physical
-2- You need to choose to change it
-3- Then you need to act on it....for the rest of your life.
That said, 1, and 2 are the same for everyone. IMO, there are no exceptions to that. If you haven't gotten past two, you are wasting time on this forum or any forum. If you have made it past 2, this forum and others, like TMSwiki.org, will provide the tools. And there are LOTS of tools to choose from. In number 3, how you act, depends on what works for you. Here is a perfect example: I have heard many folks rave about the PP by Michael Brown. Personally, I just can't read him. It just bores me to tears! YET, I have been successful in "curing" most of my symptoms with other processes. Other people have had great success with MB's PP. That is not good, bad or indifferent. It just is what it is. I am sure MB does not take it personally that his process didn't work for me!
For me, the mindfulness I have learned doing yoga and meditation is what helps me be aware of the tension and excess energy (in the moment) and know it is time to deal with it. The biggest key to my success has been learning to access the "space" and then choose how I respond (with the tools that work for me).
"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." Viktor E. Frankl
Matthew
Ferretsx3@comcast.net
--------------------
Less activated, more regulated and more resilient. |
Edited by - MatthewNJ on 03/03/2013 14:15:05 |
|
|
|
njoy
Canada
188 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2013 : 14:00:19
|
What MathewNJ said! Also, I didn't "believe" in Sarno 100% (or any percent) but it sounded possible so I gave it a try and it worked.
Since then I've probably told a hundred or more people about the basic premises. Many gave it a try. It worked just fine for ALL of them but they said, "Well, yes, it worked but ..." and that was it. Haven't made a single convert, lol. The only "bad" effect for me is that I have to look at people suffering and say, "Oh well" since there is seldom anything more I can do for them. The "good" effect for me is that total failure at outreach has forced me to abandon some of my perfectionistic/control freak ways. Love the way there are two sides to every coin.
|
|
|
|
MatthewNJ
USA
691 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2013 : 07:44:08
|
njoy, i can still count on 1 hand how many folks i have "converted" in 10 years! just remember, you planted the seed. it will grow when it is ready. i remember Dr. Frank Murphy (a TMS sufferer and psychiatrist) sharing that he heard about TMS from
howard stern and didn't act on ot for 17 years! Keep planting those seeds, they WILL germinate.
Remember the movie sixth sense? "I see dead people"? Well WE "see people with TMS". VERY frustrating when you KNOW you could help them if they would listen.
They will, when they are ready!
Matthew
Ferretsx3@comcast.net
--------------------
Less activated, more regulated and more resilient. |
|
|
|
Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2013 : 00:44:15
|
Rik. Good points raised. I think we are talking about different populations. There are some people (an unknown proportion) who clearly get better from reading TMS books, and following suggestions such as journaling- many of these people are active on the forums and can testify to this reality. It appears that a combination of information and self reflection are up to the job for these people (I was one of these). And then there are some people for whom this more simple intervention is not adequate- they are also on the forum, and report to not getting better despite journaling and reading etc. I cant offer any clear suggestions as to why this difference exists- i dont think it has to do with the intensity of distress, ie. i dont think it is 'light weight' problems which resolve easily and quickly with just information (I was highly traumatised from nearly being killed; and there are people who have not been traumatised at all, but their TMS seems more intractable). Is it to do with the degree of openness to the general proposition? Perhaps. Sarno saw more than 20,000 chronic pain patients in his career- this is an enormous sample- probably more than anyone else alive. As such, while i dont think he suffers from Papal type infallibility, I think it is worth listening to him when he says that unless people accept and internalise the TMS model (or some very close variations of it), including the idea that unconscious distress necessitates chronic pain as a protective strategy, then people will not get better using these ideas. That is, to half entertain these notions is not sufficient to change the pain. Nor is hanging on to physical therapy likely to result in a resolution. Its not that people have to follow this advice, but if they want to get better from the TMS approach, these seem to be pretty central tenants. Not everyone (who is entertaining this approach) is equally committed to or convinced of the merits of these ideas- thats OK- their choice.
People who do not get better from information and self reflection will probably benefit from appropriate types of psychotherapy (again, as per Sarno's suggestions). It is not that this approach is no good for them- it is that they need additional help, beyond what information and self reflection can provide. There may be a tendency to write the approach off as it hasnt worked for them, but perhaps they need the information, self reflection and appropriate therapy? (my personal experience is that good therapy without the good information is not sufficient to resolve chronic pain though- both seem to be needed for some people, with the information being necessary but sometimes not sufficient in its own right).
As Rik says, there are certainly implicit memories which are laid down in our pre-verbal stage of development, and if these are from upsetting experiences, they will be evident in emotional patterns rather than in auto-biographical memory. And there is certainly a whole neurology to this, as with everything else in humans. It is not correct that these implicit memories (and their associated feeling states, cognitive patterns and schemas, physiological reactions) are indelible- they can be changed in so far as the emotional charge can be taken out of the implicit memory- this is referred to as re-consolidation, and is well researched and demonstrated in neuroscience. There may be some spontaneous experiences which aid in reconsolidation. We do know that this can happen in certain experimental conditions, and these are replicated in certain psychotherapeutic processes (see Bruce Eckers recent book: Unlocking the Emotional Brain). This therapeutic reconsolidation does require that people revisit the upsetting/traumatic event in vivid detail (in their imaginations, under the guidance of a therapist)- then specific procedures can be undertaken in which the emotional sting of the experience is removed from the memory (there are variations of how this can be done also with implicit memories, and those for which there is no conscious recall due to being laid down in pre-verbal ages). How much can people do this on their own? Eric offers his experience of doing it for himself, and he is no doubt not on his own in this. It can be done very effectively with certain approaches to therapy, e.g brief psychoanalytic approaches as used by Sarno's psychologists, Coherence Therapy, EMDR, some Gestalt practices, some NLP practices etc.
When people are journaling as part of their attempt at a 'book cure' from TMS, they are simply raising their level of awareness about the pertinent issues. This may or may not be therapeutic in terms of TMS. The simple raising of awareness may be sufficient to effect change; or it may simply trigger more distress and reinforce their distress around certain experiences- the latter would be a good indicator of the need to seek professional help. It cannot be taken for granted that revisiting past hurts will by necessity simply reinforce painful neural pathways- it is also a necessary component of the reconsolidation process, whereby the outcome is being able to recall bad events but no longer being emotionally or physiologically aroused when connecting with the memories. This outcome ties in with the treatment of TMS as it is these memories/emotions which are generally what the pain is being created about. Deal with them (as per reconsoldiation) and there will be no further need for our mind/brain to generate pain as a deflection.
James |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Dumping Sarno ??
