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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2005 : 12:06:13
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There is a pattern of messages that pop up on this board fairly often, from people who claim to have 'bought in' to the TMS concept but are not any better. The pattern is:
1. Read the book and understand the concept.
2. Accept that TMS applies to them.
3. Do some of the psychological work.
4. Decide that they have done step #3 as best as they possibly can.
5. Since they are not better, conclude that TMS is bogus.
Some don't even proceed to step #3; they assume that it is good enough to get to step #2.
Missing from this list is resumption of physical activity. Many people underestimate the necessity of this step.
Also missing from this list is repudiation of structural causes for the symptoms. Many people continue to cling on to their "herniated disc" and other medical diagnoses.
Many people do not really do step #3. They think they know everything that is bothering them, and they insist that they have explored it all. But in many cases this exploration is on a very superficial level (e.g. "I hate my boss") and they have really not taken the time, every day, to truly delve deep into their psyche and find the fundamental sources of unconscious rage.
So what happens after step 5? They come to this board looking for "support" but they do not actually listen to the responses. In reality what they are looking for is proof of their conclusion that TMS is bogus.
What happens after that? Some dismiss the TMS concept entirely, return to the physical realm, have surgery, physical therapy, etc. They will continue to experience TMS symptoms throughout their lives.
Please note, I am not singling out anybody in particular. This is a pattern that has repeated itself over and over on this forum for several years.
The reality is, to truly recover from TMS it takes hard work. It is true that some people can read Dr. Sarno's book and never have pain again. It is also true that the majority of people need to work much harder in order to get relief. That work involves deep introspection ... discovering things about yourself that you'd really rather not know ... accepting your weaknesses and letting go of the need to project a strong image to others ... uncovering the deeply repressed feelings that have led to the development of perfectionistic and goodist personality traits ... etc. etc.
The pattern of failure is an easy trap. It is easier to fail than to succeed at treating TMS. Success involves a lifelong change in the way we think about the symptoms; in the way we think about ourselves. Success involves facing the fears head on and refusing to give in to the symptoms. Success involves work. For most people, that work goes far beyond reading the book. |
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MikeC
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 12:36:19
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Dave,
In part, I agree with you. The problem with the Sarno approach (not that this is a criticism of the method) is that it is entirely subjective to one's interpretation. Step 1 is pretty straightforward. You physically need to read the book and understand the concept which is not that difficult to understand. I think people will then accept it but this is when you start getting into the interpretation. I can say I absolutely accept TMS as my issue and repudiate the structural. But as Sarno says, you must accept it on an unconsciouslevel. If I can't get into my unconscious, how do I know that I am accepting it. I can walk around the house and say it a million times but I still won't know if my unconscious is accepting it. It is the same problem with the psychological work. I can try to dig up everything in the unconscious mind that could be there but at what point does this get ridiculous. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't possibly remember everything that possibly could trigger off TMS in the 43 years that I have been alive. Yes, there are the obvious things out there which are easy but do I have to go back to everyday in Kindergarten to try to remember everything that possibly could trigger TMS.
Believe me, I am not trying to argue with you. Overall, I think Dr. Sarno has done a remarkable job in his acheivements. It is easier to have surgery, PT, adjustments, etc. because someone basically tells you what to do and there are concrete steps involved. WIth TMS, you wind up in that difficult area of subjectiveness. After many months of getting nowhere, I think it is easy to see why people give up on the process. While I don't agree with giving up, I can't blame them either.
Thanks for bringing up the subject and entertaining a somewhat different opinion.
SIncerely,
Mike C |
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Fredarm57
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 13:26:04
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| Mike and Dave: That's why some of us need psychotherapy to get over TMS. Sometimes one needs help in getting through the emotional issues and to provide support in dealing with the pain while it resolves. Fred |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 14:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeC
But as Sarno says, you must accept it on an unconsciouslevel. If I can't get into my unconscious, how do I know that I am accepting it. I can walk around the house and say it a million times but I still won't know if my unconscious is accepting it.
You don't have to know. You just have to accept that there is a process by which the knowledge filters down to your unconscious. If you stay the course, the concepts will sink in, provided you avoid the pitfalls such as doubt and physically-oriented treatments.
quote:
It is the same problem with the psychological work. I can try to dig up everything in the unconscious mind that could be there but at what point does this get ridiculous.
Most people don't have to find any specific things that are causing TMS. There are few people who can actually bring unconscious feelings to the surface (Dr. Sarno knows of only one). The key is that the psychological work is a reconditioning process. It is the trying that is important. By turning your thoughts towards psychological issues when you are aware of the pain, you are telling your unconscious mind that its strategy is not working anymore. Despite its attempts to distract you, you are still thinking about the rage. Or better yet -- you are feeling the rage.
More than anything else, TMS is about breaking a bad habit. The tricky part is that the habit is unconscious and you can't control it directly. |
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MikeC
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 14:48:06
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Dave,
You mention in your original post on this topic that people need to "truly delve deep into their psyche and find the fundamental sources of unconscious rage" (I'm not sure how to use the "quote" function) I think this is the hardest part because they don't know how deep they have to dig. As Fred says, that is why we need to go to psychotherapists. I realize that you said it that as long as you "try" to do it, that is enough for most people. The problem is that most people think they are doing this because they have nothing to compare it. Again, this begs the need for a psychotherapist.
I agree that there is the easy temptation to fall into the trap of MRIs, diagnoses, etc. Using the Sarno approach, there are many "leaps of faith" that are necessary which includes ignoring pictures of your spine and flip of the coin diagnoses from "back" doctors.
My suggestion to all is that if you think you have TMS, find a physician to work with (realizing that is difficult for some people in or out of the U.S.) If nothing else, find a psychotherapist to work with. There are many out there who will work with you if you ask them. Don't be intimidated by their degrees hanging on the wall. Read the books (Sarno, Sopher, Amir, Siegel). They all pretty much have the same thing to say although variety helps you get through the tedium of reading the same words over and over.
Good luck,
Mike C |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 15:56:08
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Hi Dave.
Not to get too finger pointy,but there may not be as many as you think.
Any first year Bible student knows there are 2 distinctly different "Isaiah's" in the Bible...at verse 40,the writing style abruptly jumps from pessimistic lamentation to optimistic hope for the future.Likewise,it is widely agreed that Deuteronomy was written by the same author who penned Lamentations,and Jeremiah(widely speculated to ALL be the work of Jeremiah and his protege')
Similarly,there is one member of our community who has registered under a wide name of board ID's and posts the same stuff over and over.I had the pleasure of learning how ill he is under many,many different guises.
He should not be granted the status of the majority,even though he doesn't have the integrity to unify into one solid person,and paradoxically,this is why he can not recover from TMS.
I've been a student of etymology and epistimology for too long to be fooled by his ruse.He,unbeknownst to his arrogant self,makes the same grammatical and spelling errors over and over.Also,he assumes us stupid or forgetful,as he accidentally tells the same story.
I believe,if he keeps his word,that his surgery is scheduled for next week.
As they said about Isaac Newton when he anonymously submitted the principiae "We know the Lion by his claw"
...except in this case it is no Lion...just a very sick man.
I hope he finds what he's looking for.
Baseball65 |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 19:00:08
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Dave wrote:"Missing from this list is resumption of physical activity. Many people underestimate the necessity of this step."
I agree with you completely Dave. Sarno says that it is imperative for a person to begin resuming physical activity as soon as the pain is at a bearable level. To not move to this step assures failure. As long as your brain has you acting physically handicaped it shows it still has you focused on the physical.
I broke my ankle once and after 6 or 8 weeks (I don't remember how long) the cast came off and the Doctor told me to begin walking and exercising it. Now what would you conclude if after I got the cast off I refused to put weight on the ankle and continued to walk around with crutches? I think you'd conclude I didn't really believe the Doctor when he said it was healed and you'd be right. I don't care how much I went around saying I believed my leg had mended and that the bone was stronger than before I broke it. If I refused to try and put weight on it my actions show my true belief. Did it hurt a bit when I started exercising? Of course! But I kept on because I KNEW the bone was mended.
With TMS you take a week or two reading the books over and over and letting the truth of your condition, that there is nothing structurally wrong with you, sink in. Then you have to get up and do things that, I admit, probably scare you. Till you do, it really dosen't matter how loud or often you declare you accept Sarno's theory and TMS, you'll go nowhere fast. |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 02:02:28
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"The pattern of failure is an easy trap. It is easier to fail than to succeed at treating TMS. Success involves a lifelong change in the way we think about the symptoms; in the way we think about ourselves. Success involves facing the fears head on and refusing to give in to the symptoms. Success involves work. For most people, that work goes far beyond reading the book."
[/quote]
Good lines!
I am one of those who recovers slowly. But I have never really had any doubts about TMS. I mean I have never had any doubts about what causes my symptoms. Never thougt it was structural or something like that.I just KNOW that my symptoms are emotionally - if not, they hadnīt been "so stupid"! (so unpredictable, so different...).
But "the hard work" IS hard work. And I think that it is individual
what you need to do.
"Taking action" is for me crucial. Not only think or meditate over
my life etc but also taking some action "as if" I was ok.
Like -despite terrible fatugue -go up early in the morning and go on with my things. (and the fatigue often gets easier in the afternoon).
Carry heavy bags though my arms are burning (and suddenly they feel pretty ok) etc.
I do not always succed (not at all) but I see a good progress. It is not
a quick fix but I can see a pattern and I am MUCH better today than two years ago. Perhaps it will take me two more years to really get it under controle -perhaps not.
My body "doubts me". And I canīt blame it. I have to show it very firmly that I stand up for it these days. It has an elephant memory
so if I fail to keep my promise (act "as if") it goes back in pain and fatigue.
I sometimes have a picture in my head. I am like "a good mother" for my body. Telling it that "everything is going to be ok", stop the
hyseric reactions, I will help you! (this works bettter for me than yelling and being angry on my body).
You are not going to have a boring inactive life no more - you can be sure that I will take you "back into life". I will work, go for walks, travel, meet people etc. I will not care about your childish
tantrums - I will go on. You can rely on me...
Kajsa
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 06:23:14
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Hello Kajsa,
I'm glad to hear that your getting better. I agree that people improve at different speeds. The common thread I see among folks who improve with Sarno's books is that they accept the psychological basis of their condition, repudiate the belief of a structural or physical problem then start to prove it to themselves by beginning to resume physical activity. As they do physical activity they find more evidence for their belief, things like discrepancies in when the pain comes or what moves try to cause it. This gives them more assurance that the diagnosis is correct and they keep pressing on and improving.
On the other side are folks who may say they believe in TMS but if they try any physical activity they EXPECT the pain to come and when it does they say, "See, I knew this was bogus all along" and they quit and go back to the doctors. They prove they never had much faith in TMS theory to start with. I wish these folks well in they're search for a cure. I just wish they would go on their merry way and not come to this board and undermine the progress made by some that are struggling but moving forward. It's like they have an ax to grind because they failed and they're not happy to live in misery themselves so they try to drag others down with them. The old addage, "Misery loves company" seems to describe them quite well. |
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Fredarm57
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 07:31:00
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| One other thing to remember is the first time through is the hardest. It took me a couple of years to become pain-free the first time (1990-92), a few months when I had a relapse in 2000, and I'm hoping for a few weeks this time (new episode last week). In each case there were emotional issues present which I wasn't dealing with at the time. The first two times the pain went away and did not return in any significant way for years. I'm confident that I will have a similar result this time. Some of us (like me) are just prone to TMS, but the good news is that when you get through it once, it gets easier to recover if you have a relapse, probably because the information has already "sunk in". If the structural diagnoses were correct, it wouldn't work like this. Fred |
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MikeC
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 07:38:49
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Farmer Ed,
I plead guilty to running back to the physician. My defense is that I ran to a TMS physician. I had working on Sarno for a year and felt better. Around Christmas, I suffered two health setbacks; a mini-stroke and the return of back and leg pain. The stroke symptoms were temporary but the back and leg stuff has returned. It was at that point when I made the appointment with Dr. Gene Martinez in Boston. I apologize if I bring anyone down with the next statement but I am hoping that if I can vent anywhere, it would be here. By this time, I was contemplating suicide. I have been dealing with this stuff on and off for twenty years and figured that Sarno was my last hope. When I saw the doctor, he had a feeling I was in a bad way but unlike the idiot physicians that are out there, he told me that we are in this together and would work as a team to succeed. But he told me that it would be HARD WORK. You needed to be open-minded, intelligent, and hardworking. I told him that I was and he could see that I was. He told me to continue activity and he prescribed a weight lifting program for me to prove to be that my back wouldn't collapse under dire circumstances
I have seen him twice. My return to all activity has been slow as my mental state has slowly climbed from suicidal tendencies to moderate depression. The pain is still there. Let me try to offer one piece of advice that Ed mentioned and I would like to reemphasize; We are probably all guilty of pain being the measure of what we should and shouldn't do. It has been hardwired into us forever. It is the wrong approach. As Ed and my physician has said, you need to work through it and it will eventually go away. I will admit that it is a concept that I still have trouble but I am slowly working on.
If I can recommend one book other than the Sarno books, it would be Back Sense by Dr. Ron Seigel. It is part Sarno (theory), and part Amir (acion plan).
Again, thanks for the vent. Hopefully this was enoght venting to get me through the weekend.
Good luck to all,
Mike C |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 09:42:43
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Dear MikeC,
I encourage you to keep "venting" here. I think your post is what this is all about--sharing information in the hope that it helps others or at least ourselves. I'm not really hearing a vent, just an honest story.
Regards,
tt |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 16:55:32
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Hello MikeC,
I have no problem with Folks going to a TMS Doc. If I had a bad relapse (which is always possible) and couldn't get over it with simply reviewing the books and reapplying the theories I'd jump at the chance to go to a TMS doctor. That assurance in person from an authority figure in this field might give my confidence the boost it needed to get over the hump. I just strongly resist anyone looking for an answer through a physical means like physical therapy. |
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diverlarry
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 06:35:56
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Returning to full physcial activity is very difficult but necessay.
Being older is also more difficult becasue of the normal aches and pains that you have tend to freak you out. Without overcoming this fear you are doomed to keep repaeating the cycle your in. It takes so much courage(for me anyway) and belief for me to do this. But once you start breaking this cycle..its gets easier and easier.
MikeC
I suffered like you for so long. I thought i would never be healthy again. I felt what was the purpose of life if i was in so much pain. I started to drink heavy and i did like the drugs. But this pain was actually good for me...( i know, sounds crazy).
The pain was a signal that something was wrong to look inside myself.
Without this pain and DR Sarno i would never had taken the steps and do the work. In a crazy way, perhaps the pain was just what i needed.
I just wished i has listened sooner.
Baseball65
This was the first time i needed a dictionary to read a post.
Will i need one when i read your book ?? <joking>
From drugs to religion to philosophy to views on everday life.
You have a interesting style of writing. Maybe like a TMS Hunter S Thompson.
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Bazz
Netherlands
34 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2005 : 07:08:26
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My personal pattern of failure is the recurrent fear. I do have periods in which it goes quite good with my hands. (RSI) In other periods I find it really difficult not to focus me on the pain when I type at a keyboard. Especially when the reason of the pain is not really clear to me. This pattern is somehow constantly throwing me back. I know dr. Sarno emphasis the importance of not to be fearfull of the pain. But in practice, is the fear of pain my constant victim.
I will never give up, because I know dr. Sarno is completely right. But sometimes I experience it as a very hard en frustrating process. However, I keep on going, and try to find good ways to prevent concentrating on the pain. |
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The Pattern of Failure
