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avik
128 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2012 : 21:32:14
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Even though I have beaten 75+% of my muscular (neck/back) issues, over the past 10 or so years I I have conditioned myself to stretch every time I have a slight pang of pain in my neck (one of my few remaining TMS strongholds).
I know the pain in my neck is TMS yet and I no longer have chronic pain in my neck, only periodic bouts. That said, I still feel the need to "stretch out my neck" as I guess I have convinced myself that this alleviates some of the pain, even if only for the short term.
I just thought to myself to the first time today...how detrimental is this behavior to my possible (full) recovery?
Am I perpetuating pain by "stretching out the neck muscles" every time I have some pain/tension/stiffness in that area?
Or, should I be ignoring the pains and not giving them any attention by trying to make them go away by stretching? The problem is that I have associated any short term/immediate relief with stretching....
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Birdie78
Germany
145 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2012 : 03:06:52
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Avik, I'm no TMS-expert and very new to this subject, but: as I know stretching increases the blood-flow and therefore the administration of oxygen (which is partly "interrupted" due to TMS). More oxycen allowes the muscle to relax/release. But: as you still mentionned (and it's the same to me) it's only a short-term-relief that won't last for long as your brain will reduce the flow of oxygen in this area again.
Perhaps it could be helpul to to some general stretching all over the body and not only to ne neck when the pain is strong? I have a "ritual": every day I do some stretching for half an hour. But it's not a kind of sport-stretching, it's a kind of "Yoga-light" acoording to the MBSR-programm of Kabat-Zinn.
So you'll have the benefits of "mindfulness stretching" without the conditioning pain in my neck ---> stretching my neck will help.
BUT, as I wrote above: let's hear what the experts say, I am an absolute lay to this subject!
Kind regards from Germay sends Birdie |
Edited by - Birdie78 on 08/15/2012 03:07:17 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2012 : 07:13:28
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| I dont recommend stretching, if there is a need to stretch, you are doing it bc of tms and thus perpetuatuing the sxs. If you stretch bc there is no need (ie not in pain and want to do it before running) that is OK. The problem is once you attend to the pain you loose your ability to see what is bothering you psychologically and thus you come out saying that there is nothing psychologically bothering me and you loose your ability to make progress. The pain should actually fade away as your living your life normally. If you fight it you will never win and you will keep it alive. I once met up with arlene feinblatt (Dr. Sarno's main psychologist, who worked with the toughest of his patients for years) and she told me that you will never win if you challenge the pain and I agree. I think Balto also said that when he got better, he stopped fighting the pain, and he started to accept it. Good luck |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2012 : 17:40:04
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Stretching to relieve pain is not good. People fight me on this all the time but I used to do it and it always proved detrimental. Once I can convince people to stop doing it they tend to move to another level. The deeper self knows why you are stretching.
Fighting against the pain, or anything, adds strength to that other force. It's similar to Andrew Weil saying that cancer sufferers do much better when they don't treat their cancer like a foreign invader, but as something that is a part of themselves to be dealt with as part of themselves, not hated or despised.
I also just read that Ace1 is a physician. Glory be. He doesn't throw his ego around, he just tries to help people. That's refreshing, rare and needed. Thanks for your time Ace. You're not Dr. Sarno incognito are you? I assumed you were a pilot, perhaps a WWI or WWII fighter with a leather helmet. Never assume...
All grass roots movements begin on the ground.
Steve
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2012 : 05:06:46
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| I have exactly the same problem, only my stretching has been quite an obsession. I had some therapy for about 18 months called "John Barnes Myofascial Release" , which is a faiirly gentle hands on therapy and patients are encouraged to "unwind". This unwinding involves slow stretching out of the "fascia". I have a raging TMJ problem along with myofascial pain syndrome and fibromyalgia, and initially the muscles around my jaw had closed up to only one finger width wide. i was posting sloppy food through a very small opening of my mouth, which was both alarming and unpleasant. The therapy did help me to get my mouth open, and now I can eat anything I want and my mouth opens to a normal width, but I still have really bad pain. I know there can't be anything wrong with my jaw because I can eat OK now, but laughing and talking for long periods is still not easy. I had been "unwinding" every day obsessively for at least an hour, until my TMS therapist told me I had to stop. I did realise that I was nurturing the pain by paying attention to it and have really tried to stop myself from doing this stretching, but sometimes it's involuntary. Also, if I really try hard to stop myself for a week, my mouth starts to close up again. I can't work out in my head if the unwinding is good for me or not. My myofascial release therapist told me that I shouldn't be afraid of the unwindings, and my TMS therapist told me it was an obsession. I think my real fear about the cessation of the stretching is that my mouth will close up again, and I'll be back to square one. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2012 : 06:55:05
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| Maybe it's the difference between treating the symptom (tight fascia) versus treating the cause (I presume psychological issues). I go through this with my neck pain all the time. I have been trained to think of it in physical terms (tight muscles) and therefore have wasted a lot of time money and energy on treatments for tight muscles which, at best, provide only the most temporary relief. But it's very hard to break the conditioning. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2012 : 07:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Cath
...I have a raging TMJ problem along with myofascial pain syndrome and fibromyalgia,
...I know there can't be anything wrong with my jaw because I can eat OK now, but laughing and talking for long periods is still not easy. I had been "unwinding" every day obsessively for at least an hour, until my TMS therapist told me I had to stop.
...I did realise that I was nurturing the pain by paying attention to it and have really tried to stop myself from doing this stretching, but sometimes it's involuntary.
...I can't work out in my head if the unwinding is good for me or not.
...My myofascial release therapist told me that I shouldn't be afraid of the unwindings, and my TMS therapist told me it was an obsession. ...
...think my real fear about the cessation of the stretching is that my mouth will close up again, and I'll be back to square one.
Cath, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. About a year ago I had emergency midnight surgery for a rare thing called a Ludwig's Angina. I was told by the head of the myofacial department, if I didn't have the surgery, I may not live the night--I let them cut. You can read the gory details if you do a "search" above. Afterwards, at my release consultation with the surgeon, I was told to do some jaw exercises or I wouldn't be able to open my mouth like you. This is called a "NOCEBO"--the doc can't go home with you, so they scare the hell out of you instead. I half-heartedly, lazyly, did them for a few days and hadn't given it a thought 'til your post. I don't know if I would have had lock-jaw if I'd "disobeyed" the doc's orders--but I don't think so--my jaw is as good as new and accommodates a double-double, In-and-Out burger with cheese, double fries and a shake.
Your myofacial guy and your TMS therapist are at polar opposites of the medical spectrum. I've had nearly a hundred Rolfing sessions so know first hand about "myo-fascial release". It's very deep work, literally leaving bruises--and didn't do anything for my hip in the long run.
At this point, in your TMS journey to taking control of your mindbody health, you are believing both and they are in opposition to each other. It's good to keep an open mind about things--until you make up your mind--at that point you need to decide to believe the "lies" you want to believe and close your mind to go forward. This is the TMS board--who you gonna' trust?
You are talking about your symptoms, "myo-facial jaw" and "fibromyalgia" as if they were real symptoms. This is in opposition to TMS theory. Dr. Sarno says fibro IS TMS and the same about muscle pain. (This is all with the boilerplate proviso that your have had a medical make-up and cleared by COMPETENT doctors, that there is not a real structural condition present--no one comes to the TMS board first for their pain.)
G'luck
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
======================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 08/16/2012 07:28:51 |
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2012 : 07:33:24
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Pspa123 - you're so right. I've been trying to kick this habit for a year now. As I said, I can sometimes go for a week now without doing it, and then I can be concentrating on something else entirely - just reading a book maybe, and my neck begins to snake and my mouth begins to open and I really want to just stretch out these tight muscles.
Just have to keep reading and believing! One day soon, I will have some progress. |
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2012 : 07:44:18
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Thanks TTom for pointing that out to me. You're right in that I am still trying to extinguish many things both the docs and the therapists have told me in the past. I am still in the process of re- conditioning my thinking, but I will get there in the end. I really hope to be one of those people posting a success story soon.
And yes, I've had all the relevant MRI scans and neurology tests, and the verdict was just normal wear and tear for someone of my age. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2012 : 08:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Cath
...but sometimes it's involuntary.
... Also, if I really try hard to stop myself for a week, my mouth starts to close up again.
Yes, thanks for reminding me, the "involuntary" is a bad habit--you can develop good habits or bad ones just as easily.
Instead of doing stupid exercises to keep your jaw from locking-up (NOT)--do fun things like eating double-double burgers or--!!! (children, please turn your screens off here)!!! WARNING:!!! The Following is rated TMS/PG!!!--oral sex--although it's no longer sex according to an impeachment trial of a former president--one of the greatest accomplishments of his presidency--redefining the meaning of sex--thanks Bill! |
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2012 : 10:53:30
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| Ha ha - ok TTom good advice - I'm sure my husband would be absolutely delighted if I told him that it was a necessary requirement of my recovery. I'll bear it in mind. |
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Bugbear
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2012 : 11:52:04
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Cath, it's interesting that the two things you struggle to do for long periods are laughing and talking. These are two activities that could speed up your recovery. These and oral sex.  |
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 04:15:38
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| I know that these two things are sadly lacking in my life, (laughing and talking). I spend most of my days with only my dog for company - this is definitely a major factor in my struggle to recover. I'm still not sure how yet, but I know that this needs to change. With oral sex becoming a possible third on my list :-) |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 06:40:49
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| Thanks for the compliment SteveO. Yes, I studied with Dr. Sarno a couple of times. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 14:24:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Thanks for the compliment SteveO. Yes, I studied with Dr. Sarno a couple of times.
How about writing a success story Ace1. One that come from a MD would be greatly appreciate around here and would help a lot more people to adopt the tms concept.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2012 : 12:50:21
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| Ok Balto, I will I just have to get around to it |
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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2012 : 13:17:58
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Hi Avik,
we chatted about our necks last May, I hope you are well.
I have fallen into the same trap as you and have become accustomed to stretching my neck and lower back to relieve pain. I’ve had this habit for ten years or so, and do this all day long and sometimes through the night. I have been searching for this answer since February, thank you for raising this question.
In light of SteveO and Ace1 as well as the other posts, what I said in previous posts is dead WRONG.
WRONG- When I need, I do my own form of Yoga stretching. In your mind turn your exercise stretches into your own form. I think this is the best time to talk to your brain, when you are in pain, as you pull into each stretch and the mild pain it produces. By the way you can say whatever you want, cussing is allowed. Hey, I’ve just made up a TMS motto. “When in pain talk to your brain.” -WRONG
I see that stretching undermines long term progress by paying attention to it in a negative way, this now makes sense. Stretching to relieve pain is different from fearing running through your pain. The differences are subtle, no wonder people get confused.
I have a few things still to resolve, because even turning my head sideways 30 degrees or nodding downwards can be likened to a stretch, and gives some relief, so it’s going to be work.
So I have decided to stop doing the heavy stretches except in the context of a complete Yoga routine, and try not to pinpoint the pain. My “talking to your brain when in pain” still stands, but will take the form of reflecting what is bothering me stress wise, and accepting pain in a more passive and kinder fashion.
What are you going to do, good luck?
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Taking a break from Wiki Edu. due to windsurfing priorities
Charlie horse on neck for 20 years. (to be evicted soon.)
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2012 : 19:31:30
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To stretch or not to stretch. This has been discussed at great lengths on this forum. Let me give my 2 cents worth for what it is worth.
It's not about the stretching. There is nothing wrong with stretching. Animals stretch all the time. When we sit at the desk or computer for long periods of time it is natural to want to get up & stretch. When we feel stiff we stretch. It's instinctive.
The problem arises when we are told not to stretch. This creates conflict in the mind so that the person now feels guilty when he or she does. This then leads to more tension in the body which leads to more stiffness which makes one want to stretch more which makes ones feel even more guilty about about stretching which makes one start to obsess about stretching which makes the whole thing worse. In tmsers it creates a dialogue like this.
"Oh I' m stiff. I want to stretch. But sarno says no stretching. If I stretch I won't heal. And I so want to heal. Let me go on the forum and see what other people say. Oh now I'm confused. Maybe I can just stretch a bit. Oh that feels good. But oh what have I done. Darnn I shouldn't have stretched. But surely there's nothing wrong with stretching. Oh I shouldn't have done that. I am such a failure . I'm never gonna get better. I 'll never stretch again." An hour later........ Oh I'm so stiff. And it starts all over.
Now the subconscious has something else to worry about.
I don't think sarno ever meant it to be quite like this. I think what he means is not to focus on it as the only tool or technique for healing. If you only stretch but don't think psychologically, don't journal or do any of the other things he recommends then of course you will only reinforce the physical but if you are doing all the other work then a little stretching isn't going to hurt.
Thx
Mala
Honestly, I sometimes really get fed up with my subconscious. It's like it's got a mind of its own.
Alexei Sayle
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Edited by - mala on 08/20/2012 19:46:50 |
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Stretching to alleviate pain; does this fuel TMS?
