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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
 Posted - 08/10/2012 : 10:53:56
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I have had 3 incidents of back pain that followed sitting on a chair that I'm not used to. In June, I went to a lecture and my back hurt for a week. A few years ago, after the movies. Five days ago I rode the train for 2 hours and the next day I had lower back pain and pain is running down both legs, worse in one, running down the front of my thigh.
I had this 3 years ago, went to a chiropractor and he gave me TENS and jerked my leg. I got up and the pain was gone. I have all of Sarno's books, Steve O's, Schubiner and read this board all the time. I am trying (I have other TMS areas that are ongoing). But I do believe that sitting on a straight chair that I am not accustomed to brings this on. I am tempted to go to the same chiropractor today because this pain is really annoying.
Can you really say it's not the chair...if so, why is it that my back only bothers me after doing this? I really don't want to go to the chiropractor, scared of damage...but I want relief from this. How can I treat it as TMS if I know it's attributed to the chair. I never use hard chairs except for the three times I mentioned. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2012 : 13:34:42
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Hi Susan, IMO, it probably is just conditioning. Your body is conditioned to produce symptoms everytime you have to sit in a straight chair that you don't like. If hard chairs and hard beddings can cause back pain and sciatica, all those poor people living in third world countries would be disable with back pain. I didn't even know mattress exist until I come to the US and I didn't have back pain until years after I came here. I remember back in the old day in my country we all sit in hard wooden stools, slept on big wooden board, ride the trains, the bus that only have straight, uncomfortable wooden seats, and no one I know of have back pain or sciatica there.
Sometimes in the past you probably have a pain episode happen right after you have sat in a straight chair, your brain somehow associate straight, uncomfortable chairs as danger and now it produce pain everytime you sit in one.
Conditioning is a big part of tms/anxiety. People have symptoms when they go through tunnels, ride over a tall bridge, got stuck in traffic..., certain type of food trigger symptoms, too hot or too cold, too bright or too dard, loud noise... can also trigger symptoms... Many things in our life can be a trigger because our brain associate them with danger or warning sign and produce the "fight or flight" respond.
You need to use your mind power (as Ace1 recommended), you need to expose yourself more and more to the thing you affraid that would cause symptoms, you need to desensitize your mind, and eventually the symptoms will not happen anymore.
Goodluck.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 04:57:48
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You can't hurt your back sitting in a chair. Certainly not 3 different times. This one's easy Susan. Total conditioning along with major placebo effect at chiropractor's
It's nice that you have the books of course, but you have to believe them. Reread HBP. I found it totally persuasive.
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 06:41:51
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balto and art, I wish I understood this. First I want to say that for the past many years, I work outdoors so don't sit on a job. When I am home, I am curled up on the sofa, so really never on a regular chair. In June, I went to a lecture, something I really loved and sat for over an hour. I didn't remember going to the movies 6 years ago and my back hurting the next day. So it's hard for me to accept the conditioning theory.
I just woke up and this is day 5 of this pain. It does get a little better as the day goes on and is a little better than 2 days ago. I will reread HBP. I went to sleep re-reading Amir's book and I have Steve's book, I have all of them piled up here, am off this weekend and determined to understand all this. I walk in the street saying what Schubiner says in his book "Stop this immediately". It doesn't stop anything. It's discouraging, I don't think saying anything to yourself can stop this in its tracks. There is something physiological going on and I want to undo it and I don't see how my mind can reverse it.
If anyone can tell me I can make this pain go away today, any more tips, please let me know. Has anyone stopped pain like this in one day? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 07:21:13
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This sounds like classic TMS conditioning. Ulcers are on the out, back-ache is now in. The media deluges us with the false message that we need to $$$buy$$$ something from the medical/industrial complex after sitting in a waiting room (great for magazine sales) or off the shelves of Walgreens (I'll stop picking on Walgreens and add Costco and CVS--but not Rite-Aid, since I own a few shares of their stock). There are now stores devoted to "ergonomically" correct chairs to ease back pain.
The Good Doctor councils that the back is STRONG, but you are not believing it. All the nocebo messages from the media and "friends" are overpowering the TMS message, the pain IS real and caused by a slight deprivation of 02. It's coming from your mind and not due to an injury caused by an accident such as falling out a window of a fourth story building. The condition is benign but painful as a pinprick or a paper cut--when's the last time you went to the ER for a pinprick or a paper cut?
You can wallpaper your house with the pages of TMS books but if you don't absorb the fundamental messages, it wont's do you any good. One book is all you need, you just have to get the message and then sleep on it absorbing it on a cellular level, into your subconscious and transmitted through your autonomic nervous system.
I doubt you will stop this immediately, you believe TOO MUCH it is physiological (which is what it is) but not due to a hard chair as Balto so well said.
It is your subconscious playing a trick on you to distract you from what is going on in your life that you do not want to deal with at this time. This will only change when YOU get up from that pile of books and start attempting to do the things your TMS is protecting you from.
G'luck
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
======================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 08/11/2012 07:29:20 |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 07:53:41
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I feel really dumb because I don't understand this after all this time. I know what's bugging me in my life. I think about it all the time and try to find solutions but then I read that it's repressed stuff. So what am I supposed to think about? Many of us never get this junk resolved in our entire lives, does that mean we will be in pain forever?
If the pain is there to distract us, I understand but I truly do think about my life, I journal, I vent to friends, I don't know what else to do to address it. I feel like there is a key to this that I am just not grasping. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 08:41:24
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I wish I could help you more but there are limitations to a message board. I don't know anything about you except for a few paragraphs. Maybe SteveO can help you. Email him at his website, Google Steven Ray Ozanich, "The Great Pain Deceaption" and I'm sure you'll find him. He's very generous with his wisdom. Feel free to PM me and we can have a phone chat if you like.
Now go out and do something and get the O2 flowing and that will make you feel better after a half-hour of it.
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Edited by - tennis tom on 08/11/2012 08:42:15 |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 09:08:59
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| Hi Tom, Thank you so much for the offer and I did email you. I have Steve's book, which I find easier to relate to than Sarno's books. More practical tips, love that book and love to see his posts here. Rare that an author actually posts on a message board; he really cares. I think I will go out for that walk! |
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Bugbear
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 09:14:20
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I'm sure you are not dumb, Susan. You just sound very anxious and frustrated. You can't solve or resolve all of this stuff. The more you try the more stress you will create. Keep yourself busy doing other things and allow your mind to focus on something else for a change.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 10:27:11
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Susan, think fear. Forget all this other stuff. Do you have fear in your life? Is your back pain making you fearful? That would account for your symptoms. The cure? Forget about your pain. Or more accurately, stop worrying about it..Ok, so your back hurts. Not to minimize it as I know first hand how badly backs can hurt. especially when it spasm. But you're getting through the day it sounds like.
Again, you're not going to hurt your back sitting in a chair. (much less 3 times)...
It's not a question of getting it, or not understanding it. JUst stop worrying about your back and it wll go away. (well not the back, the pain :-) |
Edited by - art on 08/11/2012 10:29:28 |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 10:47:58
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Hi Art, I am not worried about the back pain per se. It always goes away. I am worried about my life, family matters, basically the way my life turned out to be honest. I have so much tooth and jaw pain and it scares me. I have money problems, I am getting to an age at which I thought I'd have more. My life stinks compared to the life my parents had, kids, joy, fun, family. I have no family closeby so yes, I have fear of being alone if I got sick. I dwell on this instead of appreciating the fact that I have no actual disease compared to just about everyone I know who has diabetes2, stents, bypasses, cancer.
I wake up in the morning sometimes in panic...disbelief that this is how my life turned out and wondering if I will ever be happy.
My father was a pianist and so am I, and I'm good. Since he died, I have not been able to play for more than a few minutes at a time. I have no one to play for except myself. My Dad died 10 years ago and I can't stop crying, especially when I hear a standard on the radio that he played, or the style in which he played. I have so many good things, talent, being well known for things here, a great apartment, a good shape and face for my age...but I am consumed with fear every day over pains that I get (not the back, this doesn't scare me). Things like appendicitis fear, the slightest tooth pain which I feel might result in a toothache.
My phone rings all day but nobody is a true friend. I am trying to cultivate new friendships but afraid that nobody will understand me and think I'm a hypochondriac or needy. My best friend lives far. Loneliness, fear. It's just such a bummer when I think of this and I get so upset that I lose motivation to do anything...like why bother. Fortunately, I have good days and people think I am on the top of the world because I have a cheerful exterior.
I am telling you this because I have been here a long time and we all know a bit about each other, just wanted to elaborate a little. I just want to be happy and scared that this stuff is just too ingrained in me after all these years. Approaching "senior citizen" age, getting letters from AARP about Medicare and I still think I'm at Woodstock, it doesn't gel, so this realization is hitting me hard and contributing to my disappointment. Thanks for reading this and for your ongoing help. This is just so hard.
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 15:37:00
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Where was the train journey to. Did you want to make the journey? Were you going to somwhere that you don't like?
What were you doing in the lecture? Was it interesting? Did you wish you weren't there?
I get knee pain when I drive to places I don't want to be (but have a duty to go) so maybe your backache is the same. |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 15:42:48
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Toward the end of my healing I could stop my pain in a second with my thoughts. All I had to do was close my eyes and relax my back and voila, the pain would quit. But I didn't need my pain then so it couldn't hold me.
That panic and disbelief on how your life came out is the cause behind your pain. Your pain serves to protect you from emotions that are too sad for you to accept at a conscious level.
Conditioning results from unconscious processes so you don't have to remember six years ago consciously, but your brain does.
When under tension, like you obviously are under, your brain looks for an outlet (Phase 2 TMS) to hide within. The chair simply provides a trigger mechanism--the opportunity for all the unc. thoughts to suddenly be known.
If you go to a chiropractor it reveals your doubt in TMS. Dr. Sarno said that the resistance to accepting the notion that you're ok physically is actually part of the defense mechanism itself.
Did you see my page 307?--the example Dr. McKenzie sent me about the woman who had trouble getting over her mother's death. The past death is simply a trigger for the loneliness. Our biggest fear is of rejection, aloneness and isolation. In order to avoid feeling these things we give ourselves pain to focus on.
Good luck Susan, if it makes you feel better you're way better than the first 827 Susans. And of course that you can heal if you believe these good people here.
Steve |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 18:04:28
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To scottydog, I was going somewhere I really didn't want to go, correct, but am obligated to go. It is a huge source of stress to me. However, the lecture was about one of my favorite topics and I was happy to go. If I wanted to analyze this, I could say that it was in a library and my first panic attack was in a library. For a long time, I was afraid to enter one. I was 10 years old when that happened and it is in my diary. At the time, of course I didn't know what it was. The pages following that day are harrowing to read..I wanted to die, I felt sick, had what I described as "hard breathing attacks"...which now I know was hyperventilation. I stayed home from school for a while, would never go on class trips, far from home.
It was the perfect example of some agoraphobia, health anxiety, focusing on my breathing. What was I not addressing? I read every page to try to see what was going on in my life but perhaps I was afraid to write it, lest someone in my family would see it. I wrote "I want to die", then crossed it out, but can see though the pencil. The focusing on my breathing seems to have been a TMS thing, I would do this also in junior high school when asked to perform on the violin. It really does fit the TMS picture.
Steve, I just read the page you mentioned. In my case, I thought my father was going to die so when I flew elsewhere to see him, I left and then he lasted 3 more weeks. Nobody was there, we believed the doctors. So if he had any awareness, he must have thought, where is everyone? I feel very guilty about this. I could have flown there to be with him and I kick myself for not having done it.
As far as the chiropractor, I didn't go. Everything I have read...you, Sarno, Schubiner, Amir, Sopher, this board, popped into my head and stopped me from going, so I think the better part of my does believe in this theory.
Better than the first 827 Susans? LOL...sometimes I wish to be anyone else but myself. And sometimes, like now when I see the caring responses, I think, it's not such a bad world out there. Thank you so much for replying. This stuff is very isolating when you feel nobody understands so it is an honor to be here.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 20:44:24
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HI Susan..
There's just no real doubt in my mind about your back pain. We see it over and over on the forum, we're a group of sensitive people driven to illness and pain by our deep seated fear. As far as I'm concerned, it's impossible for a sensitive, thinking person over the age of 50-55 say, not to be afraid. Mortality is a bear. Terrifying. We have to find a way to live with the knowledge that our days are numbered. I've had a helluva time these last couple of years. I thought I had this stuff licked, but "senior citizen" status looms, and I don't like it. My wife and I were on line at the movies, and the sign said over 62 qualified you for a discount. Holy crap. 8 months to go to save 2 bucks at the movies. Tell you what...I'll give them an extra 5 and they can give me my youth back..:-)
Your hypochondria is classic. You're turning every ache and pain and tinge into a potential catastrophe. It's no way to live, and with that kind of pressure and stress, you're going to have symptoms...
Stop wasting you life Susan. I've been having good success with affirming self talk. No kidding. It sounds simplistic. But it really works...Can't think of the name of the book Ace recommends. Can be very helpful. |
Edited by - art on 08/11/2012 20:49:50 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 21:15:30
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- Mind Power into the 21st Century: Techniques to Harness the Astounding Powers of Thought - John Kehoe.
This book will change your life! Read it and practice the techniques it describes! The author, John Kehoe, has spent years practicing and studying Mind Powers, and he makes this clear through vivid descriptions and precise explanations. If you are looking to escape the scientific jargon that comes with many book on the mind and its potential, and if you just want to learn some simple techniques to create the opportunities and situations you desire in life, this book is for you. If you are not sure if you want to purchase this book, you can check out Kehoe's informative site: www.kehoe-mindpower.com. As long as you practice his techniques regularly and keep focus on your goals, you will see results in your life. It was also highly recommended by one of our forum's member, Ace1.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 21:38:17
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Well, Art and balto, if you both recommend this book and website, I'll certainly check it out. Thanks! Art, yes, the reality of the approaching senior citizen status is very freaky. Someone told me that most people are stuck at an age in their mind that they still think they are, in a sense. Mine would be 30 something but then I look in the mirror, or when someone asks me how old I am and it doesn't sound like it's coming from my mouth.
My Dad played tennis until he was 80 something and my Mom swam in her 90s, so that's encouraging. My Mom still giggles on the phone when she talks to her sister, like a kid...I think we can keep that spirit. On a good day, I can. I try to not think of the age thing too much but it has its perks, like I don't care what people think anymore, much more secure and I see that with others my age. When I see a gorgeous 27 year old, I don't get jealous anymore, I say "I had my day" and it ain't over now either :-) |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2012 : 22:52:05
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quote:
Originally posted by susan828
Well, Art and balto, if you both recommend this book and website, I'll certainly check it out. Thanks! Art, yes, the reality of the approaching senior citizen status is very freaky. Someone told me that most people are stuck at an age in their mind that they still think they are, in a sense. Mine would be 30 something but then I look in the mirror, or when someone asks me how old I am and it doesn't sound like it's coming from my mouth.
My Dad played tennis until he was 80 something and my Mom swam in her 90s, so that's encouraging. My Mom still giggles on the phone when she talks to her sister, like a kid...I think we can keep that spirit. On a good day, I can. I try to not think of the age thing too much but it has its perks, like I don't care what people think anymore, much more secure and I see that with others my age. When I see a gorgeous 27 year old, I don't get jealous anymore, I say "I had my day" and it ain't over now either :-)
Yes, I think that true age thing is valid. Mine's about 38-40. It just felt right to me. Plus I was in the best shape of my life around then. I was divorced and dated up a storm. Not a bad looking dude and I knew it.
We're all children under the skin. As Saul Bellow most poignantly wrote "All my decay has taken place upon a child."
I play piano too. One of the great joys in life. PLease don't give up playing! |
Edited by - art on 08/12/2012 10:28:41 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2012 : 14:34:20
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quote:
Originally posted by susan828
Can you really say it's not the chair...if so, why is it that my back only bothers me after doing this?
You must read, and re-read, and re-read the section of Dr. Sarno's book that talks about conditioning.
If you go to a chiropractor, you are essentially throwing in the towel on treating the pain as TMS. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2012 : 15:11:45
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| Dave, could you please tell me which book? I have three of his books and can't find a chapter on conditioning. I wound up not going to the chiropractor. I knew it would be counter-productive and I really want to follow the route I am on. In the meantime, I looked in the index and will read the segments on conditioning but would love to know exactly to which book you are referring. Thanks! |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 10:25:24
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Don't have the book in front of me, but if memory serves (as I read this section repeatedly) it is around page 60-61 of "The Mindbody Connection."
We are conditioned to feel symptoms in the exact manner we expect them. This solidifies the (erroneous) belief that there is something structurally wrong. Then we do something to treat the perceived structural issue, such as going to the chiropractor, which further reinforces the belief.
In short, one simply cannot expect to recover from TMS if one takes actions consistent with the opposing belief. |
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Back Pain After Train Ride
