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art
1903 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2011 : 06:20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by balto
Man! I'm so glad I'm a "former" tms patient. The informations on this board can be so confusing at time. I feel bad for the newly ill people in here. Too many different opinions and ideas. Too many different personal experiences. It sometime seem like a hostile environment.
Hostile and combative personality is one of the main causes of tms too.
Well, not sure what you expect from a group of human beings... neurotic, anxiety cases for the most part doing their best to help themselves and others. TT is a well-known bomb thrower for those who've been around for a few years. As Alexis points out, he plays nice for a while then inevitably reverts to type.
I'm very happy for you, that you've had success and consider yourself a former patient. But bear in mind that for many, TMS is chronic. Like addicts and alcoholics, most of us think of ourselves as immersed in an ongoing process of recovery.
Is the forum perfect? Hardly. But in my 5 years here, I've seen more success stories than I could count. Most get the help they need. If you know of something better, let us know. Of course therapy's great, but it's expensive and far from a cure-all. The books are terrific, but many need more. |
Edited by - art on 08/20/2011 06:25:02 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 08:06:58
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Thanks for the kind words Art.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 11:29:10
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I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you TT. It's always pointless. So this is my last post to you on the subject. You were characteristically nasty to Alexis and your words below speak for themselves. Alexis doesn't need me to defend her, but I hope she doesn't mind my pointing out the obvious...that she's been a loyal and stalwart member for years and has helped countless people. I disagree with some of her positions, but so what? She's often brilliant. Your contention that she somehow doesn't belong here because she's "so dismissive of Sarno amd TMS'ers" is just so much TT fundamentalist balderdash.I can't even imagine where you come up with this stuff.
TT wrote: "So Alexis, what exactly are your credentials for your POV? How many books have you written on psychosomatic pain? How many years have you practiced medicine?
Feel free to answer me in your BIO if you don't feel comfortable doing it here. I don't really understand why you keep coming back here since you are so dismissive of DR. Sarno and TMS'ers." |
Edited by - art on 08/20/2011 11:30:47 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 12:59:43
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I was wondering when Art would come out of his shell and return to his TT hating. For those new to the forum, Art, Alexis and I have a history and they are always right. I've learned not to argue with people buy ink by the litre. I resist being more direct at this board, since I realize many who come here are not in a good frame of mind, otherwise they probably wouldn't be here. But I assume Art and Alexis can intellectually take care of themselves, but that's probably a wrong assumption on my part.
You'll find at most message boards a lot of banter back and forth, but this one is exceptional in how little of that there is. I think it would be a sign of better mental health if people were less sensitive to spirited interaction. I'm pretty happy and functional and I have to keep reminding myself that many here are not so fortunate. I'm here for the TMS Knowledge Penicillin. Message boards imitate life and in the real world life has it's unpleasant moments and conflicts(see the Rahe-Holmes list for some good examples). People have enemies as well as friends, I don't aspire to be the most liked person on the planet, a sure fire recipe for TMS. It amazes me how quickly Art and Alexis get their panties in a pinch and come after me in unison.
If you want to see some real venom towards me, take a look at Alexis' Bio. I took a hiatus from this board due to Art's constant attacks on me and came back. I noticed Art disappeared as soon as I did and came back after I returned, I don't think it was any accident. He needs someone like me to make him look like the nice guy. I'll be more than happy to stay away from A & A if they do likewise, but if they attack me, I'll defend myself. I realize from the far end of the playing field it's hard to tell who started it. Is Mercury out of retrograde yet?
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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Edited by - tennis tom on 08/20/2011 13:03:14 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 13:24:12
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Most if not all come here to share and to search for solutions to their problems. It is an anonymous world, no one care who is Art, TT, Alexis, or balto. 5 minutes from now they don't even remember your posts they just read. Is it really that important to voice your negative opion about someone or some posts. Or is it important to try to defense yourself? defense your face? A face nobody know.
Love thy neighbors and be cure of tms. :)
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 13:27:14
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| Thanks Art, while TT doesn’t bother me too much it’s really nice to know I have your support. You and I have always been able to agree to disagree on friendly terms on any finer theoretical points, which is nice. I never really think debate ends when the discussion ends…the ideas you bring to the forum rattle around in my head for weeks after a discussion, and with you and so many others here I get a lot out of that diversity of opinion. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 13:51:48
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quote:
Originally posted by alexis
...while TT doesn’t bother me too much...
It doesn't sound like that from reading your comments about me in your bio Alexis.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 14:40:03
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Balto, thanks for trying to be the voice of reason and peacekeeping but please don't let a little squabbling upset you or anyone else here for that matter. I find it telling that this board in particular is so afraid of witnessing any fighting. My parents were both from Eastern Europe and fought all the time. It was there normal method of communication, probably kept them together longer than they should have been and I never gave it much thought. People from many cultures like Spain or Italy dialog quite animatedly, with a lot of arm waving and passion without getting stressed about it. I find certain aspects of Anglo/American culture to be in a "Leave it to Beaver", world easily stressed by any hint of unpleasantness. This is probably a great generator of TMS tension. Thanks for your concern though.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 15:12:30
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Hi Art,
I just wanted to mention that those of us who were here back in 2007 know what fakery this line is:
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
I took a hiatus from this board due to Art's constant attacks on me and came back.
Tom left after a large number of people called him on the fact his bullying had driven numerous folks from the board. He actually most explicitly credited Penny (who pointed out he seemed to "revel in adversity and hurting people") and Shortcake (who had left following his bullying) for his departure at that time:
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom to Penny
You have made a very compelling (though wrong) argument for me leaving this board. Cupcake almost did it but she left a day too early...Penny, your's is even a better argument then her's was to get this old man outta' here...well said. I can now devote the time I spend here to my personal self-interest, following my Schwab account and watching Mad Cramer.
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3580
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 15:54:34
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Ya, Alexis a large number, you and Art that makes two, and for all I know you and art are the same person. Alexis, everything you quoted, you took out of context and I wrote in a sense of humor, sarcasm and hyperbole. You on the other hand are without any sense of humor. I found it real endearing that after I left you and art left also and after I came back you and art returned also--just couldn't stay away from me huh? In tennis playing two against one is called Australian, makes for a good workout.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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Edited by - tennis tom on 08/20/2011 17:24:27 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 16:36:16
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Tell you what Tom. Here's an apology for my part in this. I take responsibility for letting myself get sucked into another one of these black holes. And that's my fault.
Let's just move on..
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2011 : 17:16:36
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Thanks Art, apology accepted.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2011 : 06:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Balto, thanks for trying to be the voice of reason and peacekeeping but please don't let a little squabbling upset you or anyone else here for that matter. I find it telling that this board in particular is so afraid of witnessing any fighting. My parents were both from Eastern Europe and fought all the time. It was there normal method of communication, probably kept them together longer than they should have been and I never gave it much thought. People from many cultures like Spain or Italy dialog quite animatedly, with a lot of arm waving and passion without getting stressed about it. I find certain aspects of Anglo/American culture to be in a "Leave it to Beaver", world easily stressed by any hint of unpleasantness. This is probably a great generator of TMS tension. Thanks for your concern though.
I'm not upset TT. I was just concern for you guys. People with The win at all cost mentality or the care too much about what others think of what you said is very conducive to tms.
Also, I was just felt bad for some of those new to this forum who came here looking for comfort, peace, and solutions to their illness, who came and read these post and got turn off and leave without getting any helps they were looking for. I suffered in silence for almost 2 decades. I don't wish this illness on even my enemies. I found that when I helped people, I feel so much better about myself. That is why I voiced my concern. I am already cured, I come to share, not to take. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2011 : 07:56:53
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Point well taken Balto, I'm a recovering "Goodist" myself. No one forces anyone to continue reading a thread when it is obvious it's getting unpleasant, but I guess it's like a car wreck and it's hard not to peak. I've advocated in the past at the Forum for an area where folks can "tell it like it is" like a Reichian screaming room. I think that would be a healthy outlet for those who wish to participate.
If people get turned-off by the very rare expression of an emotion here, my advice would be, curl-up with a TMS book and read it very thoughtfully. This Forum can be as much of a distraction from "healing" as any other. The best thing is to read the books and absorb the TMS Penicillin Knowledge accurately and absorb it on a cellular level.
I don't view TMS as an "illness", as the Good Doctor says, it's part of the "human condition" which we cannot insulate ourselves from entirely no matter how hard we may try. When people say they are "cured" I wonder for how long? We may think we are in control of our destinies but that is an illusion. The best thing to do is learn to deal with the occasional intrusion of the "nasty" real world and be thankful if we can be the observer rather than the participant.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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Edited by - tennis tom on 08/21/2011 18:17:56 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2011 : 06:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by maccafan
alexis - It sounds like you work for a pharmecuetical company! And the drug companies can't even "make science". If you read the literature about benzodiazepines and ssri's as well you will see that it says the chemical is "thought" to act in a certain way and that it is a theory. Even pharmaceutical commercials on tv state this and then legally they have to relate all the possible side effects including sometimes causing death.
hi maccafan, I agree with you that the mechanisms are not known. I guess this just bothers me less, as I put it in the category of some very basic biological functions are still not fully understood and I put this in the same category, but that way of looking at things is of course a product of my own personal background and history. And with unknowns I agree there is always risk - and when the mechanisms are known you may end up being right...I know I don't know what isn't known. (and yeah, I know that that sentence sounds a bit silly).
quote:
Originally posted by maccafan
Like I said my problems with benzos started before the internet and it's support groups were in existance. I went to medical libraries and read and learned about it by myself. Then lo and behold when the internet thing hit I found out that I was not alone by far!
As I mentioned in my first post, I believe that you made a wise choice in your case. I always feel we know our own bodies best and have probably experienced some of the same situations as you where doctors don't seem to believe our own individual cases, just because they are in the minority. I've even experienced this problem with my dog when the vet didn't believe in a rare side effect she had. For me personally the concern is in being recognized as an individual who may have a different reaction than the norm, and having it understood that that doesn't make it any less real.
quote:
Originally posted by maccafan
Before you take any drug or undergo any medical procedure you should read about it and learn about it all that you can. Weigh the pros and cons and be your own advocate. Listen to lay people and learn of their personal experiences as part of your decision making because the scientist and the people with Phd's don't always have your best interest at heart. They have a bottom line to make for their companies, get an artical published, or get some grant money.
Again very much agreed on the research. The only risk I see is that knowing side effects ahead of time does make one much more likely to experience them...a tricky line for us TMS types and I waver personally on how to handle that risk.
quote:
Originally posted by maccafan
I think you are a perfectionist for sure, alexis. You HAVE to be perfectly right.
I'm not sure how presenting my opinion makes me any more having-to-be-right than you continuing to argue your point and opinion. I'm happy to see us disagree with each other and argue our own positions without believing either of us is in some way flawed for doing so. The main difference I see is that while I think the research process is often flawed, I apparently believe it more effective than you do. Unfortunately I think that's a topic too big to settle here.
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Edited by - alexis on 08/22/2011 06:20:42 |
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maccafan
130 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2011 : 13:23:40
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Hi alexis,
I believe you've forgotten about ABrooks original post! She asked for advice and I gave her mine. You didn't like my advice, not just disagree with it. And it seems you're very concerned that she or others may listen to my advice.
And in your condescending way you are trying to convince me that I am just plain wrong about my advice. It also seems you are trying to convert me and others into understanding that we are ignorant, TMS puritans, perfectionistic 100% believers and complete idiots for being so.
alexis, if scientists had all the answers there would be no need for people like Dr. Sarno.
Abrooks may be experiencing something very similar to what I did which is a paradoxical reaction to a benzo, interdose withdrawal or reaction to a benzo dosage reduction. When this happened to me I had never read about the side effects -ahead- of time either. It was a long time before I realized what had caused it. And I wanted to let her know that her new increased anxiety may not be "some horrible manisfestation of TMS".
When I replied to ABrooks I had only skimmed the posts before me. I just wanted to let her know that she could be right about her suspicion of the Xanax. But when you replied to me personally about my opinion I went back and actually read your posts.
I was surprised to find your posts to be so down-putting, negative and insulting even. And including yourself in your statements doesn't make them less so. I thought -wow- what a superior attitude.
Drug reactions and side effects from drugs are the "norm" for everyone even if some are not yet known as common ones. We "humans" are becoming a lot more educated about medications. We have more confidence to question the doctors and scientists and not be intimidated by them. You said that "Humans - all humans- are ignorant". That includes scientists then too.
I could stuff and repress my feelings about your comments to me but I don't want some new TMS symptom to pop up so I'm asserting myself instead . . . I don't agree with you at all. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2011 : 16:58:52
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quote:
Originally posted by art
But bear in mind that for many, TMS is chronic. Like addicts and alcoholics, most of us think of ourselves as immersed in an ongoing process of recovery.
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Art you are right that it is chronic. To me, I think it is chronic like heart disease. You have to take charge of your battle against the disease. Don't depend on your doctor too much. When you have heart disease your doctor usually just precribed Lipitor and baby aspirins and tell you to take it easy. Next come surgery if it get worse. He would rarely tell you to change your diet, or Cut back on red meat, Exercise more, Quit smoking. I read that you can actually reverse heart disease by changing your diet and life style.
I think tms is the same. you don't just use Sarno's methods (or whatever methods) to stop your pain and be done with it. To stop it for good you have to make big change to your life style. Changes that would distance yourself from distress situation or minimize it. Changes that would help your body recognize stress symptoms before it get worse and deal with it quickly before it can create pain. Changes that would put more positive into your life than negative. Be the best doctor to your mind and your body. We will always be more sensitive to stress than a non tms person, but we can train your mind and body to be ready for the next battle. We can make changes to our life and our mind so stressful situations lesslikely to occur to us.
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2011 : 17:41:34
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mccafan,
Just so you can see my side, the way I saw it, you didn't say "Here's my experience. I had a bad time with Xanax." You called it a "nasty, nasty drug". Yours was not just a retelling of experience, but a condemnation of a medication many people swear has saved their lives. In response to my original post to you, where all I did was mention that some people seemed to have had a different experience, you discounted my findings with "Studies are a dime a dozen." You also make comments like "You just might learn something" and "It sounds like you work for a pharmecuetical company!" that may seem subtle to you but imply my ignorance and bias. I imagine you think your own confidence in your beliefs is somehow less "arrogant" in nature, but I see it as your bias, just like mine is mine.
I wasn't at all angry at you about that; I just assume this is how people talk...we can't worry about every word we type. I am upset by what you said in your last post, though, and I will consider my writing style in the future. In “real life” I’m actually considered self-effacing and a bit overly humble, so it’s really very strange to have anyone have this reaction. I will consider too that while I don't have issues with the idea of being ignorant (why I so love Terry Pratchett novels that revel in our ignorance), this may be troubling to others - either because they interpret the word "ignorant" differently than I do or because being knowledgeable is more valued by some.
By the way, I agree that scientists are ignorant too. I just believe that on the specific subject of chemistry chemists are somewhat less ignorant than non-chemists, plumbers less ignorant of plumbing than non-plumbers and so on.
Apologies if any of the above sounds arrogant – I mean that sincerely.
alexis
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Edited by - alexis on 08/22/2011 18:22:58 |
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maccafan
130 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2011 : 19:40:16
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alexis, I see that you edited your last post to me and softened it. This version leaves out the part where you said you don't think I'm a bad person. That's nice of you because I don't think of you as having an ego problem either.
Xanax is a nasty nasty drug and I stand by my statement. I also went on to explain my experience with it and why I feel this way. And I said that the drug was not meant to be taken for more than 3 wks. and that in this way it could be useful. There's nothing wrong with my wording. You certainly haven't been concerned with your wording.
As far as a plumber knowing more about plumbing this is technically true. You tried to dismiss and generalize my knowledge and my experience with this drug and implied that you have a better understanding of it. And you are the one that brought up studies.
It's ok with me if you want to try to soften the way you're coming across to me. I think you should and apology accepted. After all I haven't read the book you have so I don't have the better or right understanding of the word ignorant. And it doesn't bother me if you are angry at me.
"To me" and "my experience" with you I think you're just talking in circles and trying convince me of "your" higher intelligence. And that's not very humble.
I really wanted to try to help ABrooks with something I know about. And maybe she will pass on her knowledge of something that could help me sometime.
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2011 : 20:35:42
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quote:
Originally posted by maccafan
alexis, I see that you edited your last post to me and softened it. This version leaves out the part where you said you don't think I'm a bad person. That's nice of you because I don't think of you as having an ego problem either.
When I typed that I was typing what I sincerely felt, which was that you were not at heart bad and I wanted to make clear what I felt so you wouldn't feel anger coming from me. I left out that part on editing because on rereading I feared you would misinterpret it in the worst possible light, as apparently you did.
I've found that no matter what I say you actually appear to be actively looking for the most negative interpretation possible - and there's nothing much I can do to respond under those circumstances. You deeply want to hate me and think the worst of me for whatever reason.
So to make your quest easier I take it back I guess. I kind of suspect now that you may at heart pretty much be a bad person, both cruel and severely paranoid. I can also only imagine that you are very unpleasant to be around if you are always seeing people attacking you and think the worst of everyone you meet. But if that's what you expect, I'm happy to give it to you. I'm off on vacation so feel free to make up whatever other horrible interpretations you can about my personality in my absence.
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I don't think I can take this anymore! Please help
