| Author |
 Topic  |
|
forestfortrees
393 Posts |
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2011 : 12:32:03
|
I've only had time to skim, but will read carefully later...
So far, unless I'm misreading because I've only done the quick skim, this seems to be validating my own thoughts re TMS. It's stress, it's fear, it's anxiety. In the simplest possible terms, those wishing to recover need only FIND WAYS TO RELAX.
Any appeal to intervening variables, rage, distraction, subconscious processes of any kind are not necessary and often have the effect of only confusing the sufferer, which causes more stress, which causes more psychosomatic pain.
The longer I deal with my own pain and symptoms, and the longer I hang around the forum listening to the experiences of other folks, the clearer this becomes to me.
All that said, I find the mindfulness approach a little confusing. I mean, I get it of course, but I do believe there are simpler, more direct, more easily understood ways to get there. I've found deep breathing and focusing on the breath techniques when anxious extremely helpful.
|
 |
|
|
Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2011 : 13:46:53
|
Yeah, Art, I kind of buy into the finding ways to relax. Relaxing can mean taking care of things in life that need to be taken care up, that have built up to the boiling over point, and it can mean learning about what the heck is causing the pain (anxiety, fear and more anxiety and fear). I've noticed here in many of the success stories that relaxation (however it is defined personally) seems to be a big feature in the "cure".
Somehow in all this stuff I've been doing over the last couple of months I missed the idea or the stated concept of "Learned Pain Pathways", which I heard about last night at the Chicago seminar.
Because I've had several thing happen in one small area: disc problems and where it's suppose to refer pain to, oversized gallbladder removal in the painful/stiff area, and incisional hernia, I have to give this concept some more thought -- or actually non-thought or acceptance.
My mindfulness I now realize came through my jogging and running, which I have resumed. It was my meditation, which I stopped in 2007, when the bulging gallbladder caused pulling and tugging and discomfort. My doctor at the time found nothing and later said I had weak muscles. I had no typical gallbladder symptoms. Brother! Even today when I think of the huge bulge there and the pain that it caused and the changes it caused physically in my body, I am repulsed.
Why can't one have bulges where it counts? 
I sometimes wonder if I have had a reduction in pain and stiffness because I have gradually over the last months relaxed and changed some things. I now wonder if I "learned" the pain pathway in the area that still bothers me?
Now maybe I have one more way to instill relaxation by thinking/non-thinking about "learned pain pathways".
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 04/29/2011 13:56:54 |
|
|
|
forestfortrees
393 Posts |
|
|
Darko
Australia
387 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2011 : 23:54:31
|
Hi Guys,
Art I read you comments....and I agree with you %100. I didn't read the article and just took your word on it, but yes I think TMS is a result of the fear or anxiety that we generate daily with toxic thoughts.
I have recently had heaps of back pain and just couldn't figure out why. I saw that I had all this anxiety but didn't know why, after a while I saw that I was having negative, stressful thoughts about money. I was constantly worrying about running out of money in the future despite that not being an issue at all in the present. It's funny how the mind can sometimes work against you, especially if it's an "issue" for you.
Anyway I made changes to the way I think and the tension in my body has eased significantly over just one day.
Now I just observe my body and thoughts as much as possible and if anything shows up that I don't want, like tension or negative stressful thoughts I'm all over it like a cheap suit.
WINNING 
I think it's the nature of TMSers to complicate things, when in fact they are very simple.....but not always easy.
D |
|
|
|
Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2011 : 06:53:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Darko
Hi Guys,
I have recently had heaps of back pain and just couldn't figure out why. I saw that I had all this anxiety but didn't know why, after a while I saw that I was having negative, stressful thoughts about money. I was constantly worrying about running out of money in the future despite that not being an issue at all in the present. It's funny how the mind can sometimes work against you, especially if it's an "issue" for you.
D
Funny you should mention money. I had some time to reflect last week and decided what I already knew: that money is THE problem for me. The next day I was much more relaxed.
Things are bad where I am, money-wise. I have friends losing their homes, other friends who can't make ends meet, and my own situation which in the last 2 plus years has gone from bad to worse. I listen daily to my friends' fears and problems. I can't tune them out, as they are the same who have listened to me.
I am constantly stressed about money, as my work situation is reduced and biz is bad. I have watched the equity deflate out of my house, the property taxes increase despite the value going down, the price of food jump, my savings disappear, and the price of gas jump to about $4.40 a gallon and heading north. Illinois is broker than broke and they keep turning to the folks who are tapped out and demand more. More taxes,increased "user" fees, more fines, more red light cameras watching everywhere hoping you won't be able to slam on your brakes quick enough, etc..
I am not a two income household, and there is no easy or neat solution to the Depression that is going on here. (And I mean economic Depression). Add to that my worries about pain precluding somehow earning additional money, and it is fear and tenseness and anxiety and being unable to relax as long as I have the problems I have.
To that end I am entertaining some drastic thoughts. I have talked to a real estate agent -- I want to get out before values crash even more, but so does everybody else. "For Sale" signs around here look like lawn ornaments. Foreclosures surround me.
Trying to hang on and constantly having to hear about friends losing their incomes and homes and the same very real threat on your doorstep is very stressful. Especially since we are looking at more of the same, with political parties that have dumbo and an ass as their symbols.
People in general are stressed, because they have nowhere to turn. All the institutions that I grew up with have failed: family, community, church and government.
Wow, typing this stresses me out.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 04/30/2011 06:58:23 |
|
|
|
wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2011 : 12:00:15
|
| Relaxation is great, but it is not really the purpose of mindfulness, which is really to be in the present; not past or future, in the body; not out there somewhere. Relaxation is often a welcome side effect of mindfulness. |
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2011 : 12:17:27
|
Wrld,, which is exactly why I find it a roundabout, not particularly effective way to treat TMS.
IN my opinion, the whole notion is a tad ivory tower-ish in this context. When people get here they're confused and often desperate. Giving these folks lessons in mindfulness is just not very practical.
|
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2011 : 12:19:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
quote:
Originally posted by Darko
Hi Guys,
I have recently had heaps of back pain and just couldn't figure out why. I saw that I had all this anxiety but didn't know why, after a while I saw that I was having negative, stressful thoughts about money. I was constantly worrying about running out of money in the future despite that not being an issue at all in the present. It's funny how the mind can sometimes work against you, especially if it's an "issue" for you.
D
Funny you should mention money. I had some time to reflect last week and decided what I already knew: that money is THE problem for me. The next day I was much more relaxed.
Things are bad where I am, money-wise. I have friends losing their homes, other friends who can't make ends meet, and my own situation which in the last 2 plus years has gone from bad to worse. I listen daily to my friends' fears and problems. I can't tune them out, as they are the same who have listened to me.
I am constantly stressed about money, as my work situation is reduced and biz is bad. I have watched the equity deflate out of my house, the property taxes increase despite the value going down, the price of food jump, my savings disappear, and the price of gas jump to about $4.40 a gallon and heading north. Illinois is broker than broke and they keep turning to the folks who are tapped out and demand more. More taxes,increased "user" fees, more fines, more red light cameras watching everywhere hoping you won't be able to slam on your brakes quick enough, etc..
I am not a two income household, and there is no easy or neat solution to the Depression that is going on here. (And I mean economic Depression). Add to that my worries about pain precluding somehow earning additional money, and it is fear and tenseness and anxiety and being unable to relax as long as I have the problems I have.
To that end I am entertaining some drastic thoughts. I have talked to a real estate agent -- I want to get out before values crash even more, but so does everybody else. "For Sale" signs around here look like lawn ornaments. Foreclosures surround me.
Trying to hang on and constantly having to hear about friends losing their incomes and homes and the same very real threat on your doorstep is very stressful. Especially since we are looking at more of the same, with political parties that have dumbo and an ass as their symbols.
People in general are stressed, because they have nowhere to turn. All the institutions that I grew up with have failed: family, community, church and government.
Wow, typing this stresses me out.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
And those jobs and business are for the most part never coming back. No wonder people are in pain. |
|
|
|
wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2011 : 18:24:06
|
| Art, the author's rationale for mindfulness in the TMS context makes sense. As he said, the body is always in the present; whereas the mind can also be in the past or future where there is regret or anxiety. Since the body reacts to fear of future scenarios as though they are actually happening now, being mindful, being in the present, can short circuit the process. As he mentions, animals in the wild only react to a present threat, and when the threat is over they return to normal AFTER the "shaking out" process. Unfortunately, humans suppress this acting out, which means the fear goes undergound to add to the tms reservoir. Mindfulness can direct us from the past, where there is regret or sadness, or the future, where there is fear and anxiety, to the present moment, where we are okay. |
|
|
|
golden_girl
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2011 : 21:04:47
|
This is surely like Eckhart Tolle... there really is nothing in the present second that is anxiety-producing; anxiety only occurs in the split second we begin to wonder what MIGHT happen, what COULD happen etc ad infinitum...
Right now, we are ok. We are surviving. We need to remember that. Just this minute.
Please read his books for a much better explanation!! (It gave me a lot of reassurance and peace when I read his book - I need to get my copy of The Power of Now back of my friend NOW!!)
"F.E.A.R.
Forgive Everyone And Remember
For Everything A Reason"
Ian Brown |
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2011 : 06:18:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
Art, the author's rationale for mindfulness in the TMS context makes sense. As he said, the body is always in the present; whereas the mind can also be in the past or future where there is regret or anxiety. Since the body reacts to fear of future scenarios as though they are actually happening now, being mindful, being in the present, can short circuit the process. As he mentions, animals in the wild only react to a present threat, and when the threat is over they return to normal AFTER the "shaking out" process. Unfortunately, humans suppress this acting out, which means the fear goes undergound to add to the tms reservoir. Mindfulness can direct us from the past, where there is regret or sadness, or the future, where there is fear and anxiety, to the present moment, where we are okay.
Of course this is right. I'm thinking of it from the perspective of the suffering, new TMS'er who's now expected to in addition to getting and accepting the fundamentals of psychosomatic illness....a pretty big leap for most...to wrap his mind around yet another difficult concept. I don't think it's needed. Worse, it will probably scare some away.
All that said, for those who are ready, it's quite a healthy approach. |
|
|
|
Erata
63 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2011 : 09:02:59
|
Thank you for this article!
Regarding animals that will 'shake off' after threatening encounters, I've been working with a therapist who is also showing me Yoga & breathing techniques to help relieve Fibromyalgia pain. Last week she mentioned how running is believed to help clear the body of toxins built up through trauma. It reminded me of how, for years, when I was still able to, I'd almost literally hit the floor running when I woke up in they morning. I felt I had to run, put on my running shoes and was out the door before I'd spoken to anyone or had a cup of coffee. Afterwards I felt better able, emotionally, to function.
I always judged this as some obsessive exercise addiction flaw in myself, but now, in this light, it makes sense because I've long felt that the more extreme fear, stiffness & pain I feel when I wake up (no longer able to run) are related to what I've been remembering while asleep and dreaming. By following a natural 'instinct' (rather than a neurotic impulse) to run, maybe I was 'shaking off', the toxins I 'd built up overnight.
In any event, I found the article very relevant and one to keep to read again...........
P.S. What does PPD stand for? I must have missed that part. |
Edited by - Erata on 05/02/2011 09:48:23 |
|
|
|
Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2011 : 09:40:53
|
The Hillbilly is finally vindicated via a source from inside the Sarno camp. Soooooooo glad to see they've simplified the treatment plan. It appears that this author is also working to change the name and gain wider acceptance among docs. Whoever is responsible for this ecumenism, bless you and your efforts!
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2011 : 11:39:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
The Hillbilly is finally vindicated via a source from inside the Sarno camp. Soooooooo glad to see they've simplified the treatment plan. It appears that this author is also working to change the name and gain wider acceptance among docs. Whoever is responsible for this ecumenism, bless you and your efforts!
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
This was pretty much my reaction too. I've long regarded all the rage/distraction stuff as unwieldy, invalid, and counterproductive.. |
|
|
|
shannclapp
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 06:21:24
|
So your advice to a newbie would be to take it all less serious? Accept it is your body/mind causing the symptoms and try best to live day to day, not in fear of your symptoms.
I ask becasue I was dealing with my dull facial pain for yrs, stumbled accross TMS in Dec. and started reallyy analyzing it, over analyzing it probably. Spent so much time trying to look at who or what has made me this way, looking at my parents, husband etc. Then my symptoms got worse, I ended up with aching teeth, gums etc and my anxiety went crazy! Some how I ended up googling symptoms again, something i know is toxic! And now I am slowly back to digging myself out of this self created hole.
I wonder if the people who have the instant cure just from reading, just accept it, not over analyze TMS theory and get better much quicker because of it?
|
|
|
|
Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 19:56:09
|
quote:
So your advice to a newbie would be to take it all less serious? Accept it is your body/mind causing the symptoms and try best to live day to day, not in fear of your symptoms.
Precisely. That last sentence should be cut out and pasted on your desk, your computer monitor, your dashboard, your mirror. That is THE key and the only path out I've ever witnessed. Your symptoms aren't going to get worse. They've done what they can, and you keep them alive by giving them your worrisome attention. They can change places and degrees somewhat, but what you fear will not happen (total collapse, embarrassment, being crippled).
It is the apprehension of such things and the looping thought to adrenals that keeps you stoked with chemicals that feel like poison to your body. You should recognize this in your behavior and thought pattern. You could stop Googling now and never do it again if you no longer feared your symptoms. In fact, if you really had no fear of your symptoms, you would find the practice boring or even absurd. This mindset takes a while to adopt, so go gradually.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
|
|
|
shannclapp
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 10:31:39
|
| Thanks for the response hillbilly. I just need soemthing to help me get through the pain and strange sensations. I need to stop the fear and i am having a hard time today cause my symptom changed yesterday and started a weird tingling in my throat & mouth. |
|
|
|
forestfortrees
393 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2011 : 12:54:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erata
What does PPD stand for? I must have missed that part.
Excellent question. PPD stands for Psychophysiologic Disorders and was coined by the Psychophysiologic Disorders Association (PPDA), which is a organization of some of the leading figures in the field: Dave Clarke MD, Howard Schubiner MD, Peter Zafirides MD, Frances Sommer Anderson PhD, Eric Sherman PhD, Alan Gordon LCSW, John Stracks MD, David Schechter MD. The general consensus was that the term PPD would be more acceptable to practitioners and potentially increase more practitioners to incorporate the PPD approach.
Forest
My favorite TMS Wiki pages: How do I journal?, Affirmations, Sarno on 20/20, Find a TMS Doc. |
|
|
|
forestfortrees
393 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2011 : 16:23:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
The Hillbilly is finally vindicated via a source from inside the Sarno camp. Soooooooo glad to see they've simplified the treatment plan. It appears that this author is also working to change the name and gain wider acceptance among docs. Whoever is responsible for this ecumenism, bless you and your efforts!
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
I'm really glad that you liked the article, Hillbilly. Many people have written on this very forum that they have really valued your posts, so I really value your viewpoint.
Dr. Evans' approach is discussed at greater length in the following TMSHelp post:
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6205
Of note is when truenorth wrote, quote:
Originally posted by truenorth
I spent over a year with a Sarno therapist in NYC but made no progess. I called Sarno and he said his therapist of last resort (or something like that) was Dr. Evans.
It is important to note, however, that Dr. Evans was only speaking for himself in that essay and not for Dr. Sarno. Dr. Sarno is EXTREMELY careful in giving out his endorsement, so it's important to maintain this distinction (we wouldn't, for example, want to create friction between the two of them). However, based on Dr. Evans' essay, it's clear that there are other extremely smart people out there, who are known and trusted by Dr. Sarno, and who are doing brilliant work as well that can help people get beyond their pain.
In terms of where Dr. Evans stands, what I like the most about him is that he is an independent thinker with a very fertile mind. One of my jobs at the TMS wiki is to find people who are really clever and who have ideas that I think are really groundbreaking, and to convince them to write essays to share those views with the wider world on our publicly browsable User Pages.
That's what I did with Dr. Evans, and he was gracious enough to respond with the essay that we're discussing. I was, of course, thrilled to read his essay. By commissioning and selecting quality pages and drawing attention to them on the wiki, we are able to assure a steady stream of readers over the course of years for people's best ideas.
I've also asked for one from Art, as I admire his posts and think that he's a great writer. I can't wait to see what he comes up with.
As I mentioned above, many people have gotten a lot from reading your posts, Hillbilly, over the years, and I'd love to have you do a user page. While some of your ideas have been controversial, the wiki, as a democratic nonprofit run by a collection of peers, strives to represent all viewpoints rather than being controlled by a specific viewpoint, so I think that this is consistent with our mission. In the end, if people say that reading something has helped get them out of pain, then I want to help publicize it.
Either way, Hillbilly, would you mind dropping me a line at forestfortrees@ymail.com ? I have been dying to get in touch with you for probably a year and a half, but you don't list your contact info on your TMSHelp profile.
Anyway, I'm very glad to hear that you liked the essay. The mission of the wiki and the nonprofit behind it is to stimulate dialog and to facilitate the spread of new ideas about TMS/PPD, so I hope to publish many more essays like it in the near future. Keep an eye on the wiki to see what's new. With more than 450 pages of substantial content, there really is a tremendous amount to explore.
Forest
My favorite TMS Wiki pages: How do I journal?, Affirmations, Sarno on 20/20, Find a TMS Doc. |
|
|
|
Javizy
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2011 : 08:03:15
|
quote:
Precisely. That last sentence should be cut out and pasted on your desk, your computer monitor, your dashboard, your mirror. That is THE key and the only path out I've ever witnessed.
I know you don't like quotes, but I saw a good one that illustrates your point here: 'If you want to get better, you need to stop trying to get better.' The pain may be of psychological origin, but the symptoms are physically manifested and very real, and we need to learn to accept and live with them until they go away. Just by doing that, we relieve what is most likely our main source of stress. My book on mindfulness & pain promoted a similar idea, but it never really clicked with me until I saw that quote. It's a great lesson for many other areas of our lives too.
I'm just getting started with CBT, and it seems quite promising. I've already reduced a lot of stress and negative/irrational thinking through practising mindfulness, but I'm hoping a more analytical approach will help me get to the bottom of those times when I'm tense for seemingly no reason.
I'm curious to know if you explored any of the unconscious stuff. Did you practise journalling, learning to feel your feelings etc, or was simply changing your thought patterns enough? I don't like Sarno's distraction/mind trickery hypothesis, but I am aware that I've been repressing emotions, and I'm open to trying more than one method at once. I'm wondering if pent-up energy in the ANS can dissipate by itself as well. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Article by one of Dr. Sarno's most trusted psychs
