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renee
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2011 : 19:58:03
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| Has anyone had Depression and Fatigue as TMS? My TMS moved to brain fog, fatique, weakness with depression. I find that I am unable to cope with any stress and cry over anything. I am using the TMS approach and started to journal again. Has anyone taken antidepresant medication? I am nervous about starting medication but need to be able to function at work. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 06:20:56
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That's a really hard question to answer. You don't mention physical pain. I think everyone with TMS has a certain amount of depression and fatigue because this condition is tiring! I am sure some people on this board have taken antidepressant medication. It has its place if you absolutely can't function but I don't feel it's the solution in the long run because you're not addressing the problem, it will come back and you can't be on medication forever without it messing up your body (and your mind...I have seen people on meds for a long time, their brain is fried).
Using the TMS approach can help anyone but maybe you should look into getting a therapist, perhaps a cognitive therapist and doing a lot of research to find someone really qualified. Can you pinpoint what's bothering you, when you journal, do the answers come to you? At the moment you start crying, can you see what's triggering it? |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 07:36:06
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renee...
quote:
Has anyone had Depression and Fatigue as TMS? My TMS moved to brain fog, fatique, weakness with depression. I find that I am unable to cope with any stress and cry over anything. I am using the TMS approach and started to journal again. Has anyone taken antidepresant medication? I am nervous about starting medication but need to be able to function at work.
Just my personal experience.... Last summer and fall I was so anxious and depressed from the constant pain of 1.5 years, that when I picked up Mind-Body Prescription again (after the various docs seemed to think that my herniated disc could not be responsible for the ongoing pain/stiffness), I could not focus at all on the message of the book.
Then I took some TMS courses, and was still to anxious to let it seep in. I was advised to take some 5-htp and GABA, which helped -- for awhile.
I have thought about going back to anti-depressants, and I still might. I've made some great progress, but I'm OCD positive, and it's hampering my ability to zoom on with life and leave the pain behind. Yes, and OCD is TMS and Howard Stern did blah, blah. Each person is different with different circumstances and support. If you have little support in the way of family or a real sympathetic friend, you may have to get a chemical boost. And there is nothing wrong with it if you are suffering from anxiety and depression. Dr. Claire Weekes advises that you should take what you need for it, but understand the causes and affect a cure.
I think there is a place for anti-depressants if a person knows that they are dealing with a mind-body problem. If you are so wiped out that you can't cope with cooking an egg or finding clean clothes to wear to work in the morning, how are you going to do the mental work (plus resuming all physical activity) that you need to do to "cure" the problem?
Plus, if you are journaling you are dredging up problems, which might make escaping the gravity of the black hole of depression very hard. Journaling is a positive for some and a negative for others. You have to see how it works for you.
Some on here will disagree about the meds, but you have to find an individual path, an it's not once size fits all.
Just my thoughts. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting there. And no matter where I am, there I am. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 08:58:51
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If you continue to suffer despite the TMS approach, I would see a good psychiatrist, preferably one with a mind/body approach.
Medication is effective for moderate to severe depression. Not effective for mild.
These are difficult and complex issues. If you are significantly depressed it should be addressed. There's no reason you can't take appropriate medication while exploring TMS self-treatment.
All just my personal opinion of course.
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 12:07:08
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First, I don't agree at all with Susan that "meds can fry your brain." Based upon what evidence? Sure, we don't know the effects, if any, of very long-term use, eg, 30 years, because nobody has been on (the ssri's at least) them that long. A more useful question is whether they are helpful for most people. As Art mentioned, anti-depressants are definitely helpful for people with major depression, but it is debatable for mild to moderate. I have been on them on/off for about 12 years and since I have dysthymia, not major depression, I don't see a major difference either way. I don't mind taking them because I am not aware of side effects of any kind (lexapro). Pretty benign insurance for me.
By the way, the best anti-depressant for me has always been regular endurance exercise. Nothing beats it. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 16:30:14
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wrldtv, when I say their brain is fried, I see behavior changes in some people I know, where they are just in another zone, forgetful, not functioning as they did pre-medicated even WITH the depression. There is enough research that has stated that once the brain cells are altered in form, shape for long enough, they do not spring back to normal.
If you read the withdrawal boards of some of the SSRIs, Paxil and Effexor in particular, you will see a lot about "electrical shock syndrome". People go through absolute hell every time they turn their head, the noise, the feeling of being electrocuted. They wish for their depression rather than go through this.
I am all for taking something if you are really depressed but I agree with Dr. Mercola's writings, that it doesn't solve the problem long term. I do agree with the poster who said that if you are too depressed to respond to therapy or a TMS program, meds may have a place. I just have strong feelings because of the changes I've seen in people, who are operating more like Mr. Spock now than the human, feeling person they were before. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 19:43:32
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The most depressing thing I ever saw was outpatient classes I took after being admitted to a psych ward because of extreme health anxiety and a really bad reaction to busphar (sp?). I was having what I now believe to be a serotonin poisoning, which could have lead to death, I guess.
The people in those classes lived and fretted for their next med adjustment or next type of med. Some had been on anti-depressants for 15 to 20 years. But they did not do the mental work. None did any cognitive behavior modification. Mostly they went back to the shrink for more pills. After seeing that I weaned myself off the meds I was taking.
However -- and this is a big however-- I do get the feeling that I could have short circuited the OCD about my symptoms had I stayed on the meds for probably six months. As it was, I went off and programmed the pain into my body then started to obsess on it and then got a negative MRI report about a disc and then read all the bad stuff on that and completely went downhill.
So by the time I got back to mind-body thinking I was horribly depressed and totally anxious. I had had doctors tell me that one wrong move or fall -- or even a sneeze-- could paralyze me. Others threw up their hands and said their was nothing they could do with a mid-back problem. I was hopeless. Live with the pain. Your life was over. Good luck. Too bad. So sorry. I heard it all.
So I'm reading MBP and trying to digest it and was so bad off I couldn't. Fortunately, the 5-htp and GABA helped calm me, plus seeing some real results after reading MBP and HBP.
OCD is still with me, but I'm probably at the point where I can exercise enough and get my own endorphines up and am seeing more and more progress.
Still, if you can't crack the egg and are wearing dirty clothes to work and wandering around lost, you do need probably more help than a book.
Just my thoughts. Been there. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 21:38:28
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Interesting, Susan. I have known many people on meds over the years and I have yet meet meet any of these walking zombies you mention. Have you yourself ever been on anti-depressants for any length of time?
Believe me, I'm certainly not defending meds, I think they are probably over-prescribed, actually. But, there is definitely a place for them and spreading horror stories about them without concrete facts, seems counter-productive. Dr Mercola is not an MD, but an alternative practitioner. There is a real doc, a psychiatrist, Peter Breggin, who has also written books denouncing meds in the strongest way. I am immediately skeptical when experts do the "all or nothing" black or white dance, eg, something is not just useless or maybe problematic, but akin to poison. Such fundamentalism is always something to flee from, I think. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 22:26:55
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Hi wrldtrv, yes, I have been on 2 meds. When my tooth pain started 15 years ago, I was put on a low dose of Elavil for about 9 months. I felt pretty much the same, a little less pain, weaned off with no problem.
Then I developed what they thought was fibromyalgia. It was really bad, I couldn't step up on a curb without severe thigh pain or cross my arms to take off a t shirt, something we do automatically without thinking. So, the rheumatologist put me on Effexor. I started getting electric shock sensations and a sound as if someone was scraping a metal pole. I cried a lot and then walked head first into a glass door. I forgot that you have to OPEN it first. I was ok but that was enough. First of all, it wasn't helping my pain, I felt like a space cadet and friends told me that I am acting strange. The thing about SSRIs is that the person doesn't see how strange they've become. Their friends and family do. Anyway, I started to decrease the dose and the electrical shocks became worse. I went on the message boards and saw that Effexor seems to be the worst one. I went to a psychopharmacologist, begging him to put me on something to ease the symptoms but he said that can worsen it, you just have to tough it out.
Two months later, I woke up, turned my head...because that's when it was the worst, and the clanking noise was gone. I eventually felt normal again. It was the psychopharmacologist who told me that he would never have prescribed Effexor or Paxil because it can leave permanent damage to the cells and explained it as I did before, as far as bending the shape long enough, it does not unbend.
Fortunately, I was not on it for too long. I know hat Dr. Mercola is not an MD and I do know what you mean about someone being that adamant about something...but I saw it in myself and I have neighbors who are so far removed from their former self. It's not my business to suggest to them to go off a med...I would never do that but I see it so often. I live in an urban area where more than half the people I know as well as clients have a bottle of an SSRI on their kitchen counter. I see the changes...I see them forgetting to call me, to pay me, to function as they did before.
I went through a major depression over 25 years ago. Was not in any physical pain. Just stress from a job and life. It lasted acutely for 2 months and slowly lifted. In retrospect, maybe I should have taken something (I did take Tryptophan, not sure if it helped)...but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't take an SSRI. Maybe Elavil, maybe something in hat class, of which I have not heard horror stories. This is my experience, my opinion. If it works well for someone else, that's fine, but I think people should really research this stuff and look at the side effects. It even says "electrical shock syndrome" on the package insert. I read it but thought it wouldn't happen to me. I seriously felt like I was in an electric chair, over and over. I wanted them to open my brain up, do anything. And this wasn't even when I was depressed! I can't imagine this on top of depression.
I am saying all this to say...I am extremely grateful for this board and I am just trying to clarify my views but I so much believe in Sarno's theory and wish I had a therapist when I was younger who explained it this way. I am still having a hard time and working with the Schubiner book. I've been hypochondriacal since I can remember, earliest age 9 where I wrote in a journal that I still have. That's a lot of years to try to undo something so integrated into my core. If you're not snoring by now :-) thanks for reading this.
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 05:50:34
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Just yesterday I saw a friend of the family, who lost her husband of 50 plus years.
Her two sons and my sister thought she had slipped into dementia (in a matter of weeks!). I asked what meds she was on. Turns out Paxil and Xanax. She lives alone and it turns out she was taking a double dose of her meds.
If one of her sons took her in or stayed with her overnight for even six months she would probably not need either med. She is lonely and depressed and anxious, and the meds are making a further mess. There is no replacement for human caring. Just my casual observation, but many chronic pain people seem to be lacking in good human contact and relationships, and I'm not exempting myself.
Mercola is a DO not an MD. Either can mess up or do okay, depending on who they are, but he is not quite the common definition of an "alternative" practitioner.
In today's newsletter, on the topic of pain relief, he mentions Sarno: quote:
A classic example of this is the work of Dr. John Sarno, a physician who focuses on treating patients with severe recalcitrant low back pain whose surgeries had failed to give them any relief. Still, in this very difficult-to-treat group, he was getting over 80 percent improvements simply by addressing the emotional element of the pain.
Meds suck. But renee asked a question about antidepresants. She said it herself: she needs to be able to function at work. Lose your job, lose more of your mind. Do that and forget about the leisure of working on TMS. You just go plain crazy. So maybe she looks into meds, and maybe not SSRIs, but the newer SNRIs, such as Cymbalta. Who knows? There is no template to cure. |
Edited by - Back2-It on 04/25/2011 06:14:13 |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 06:16:24
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I didn't know that Dr. Mercola was a D.O. They have the same training as an M.D. One of my doctors is a D.O. I wouldn't say I prefer them over a doctor, but they do look at the person as a "whole person" so a lot of people do prefer them.
Back2-It, you are so right about human contact. Sometimes a good friend can do more for us than a therapist. Maybe not with the heavy stuff for which training helps but day to day things that bother us and just someone to say "What's the matter?" and care enough to listen and help us.
Interesting about the Paxil. That and Effexor are the ones that I hear and read about more. I am going to research the difference between SSRIs and SNRIs. If I ever decide to try one again, might try one but I wouldn't wish the other two on my enemy. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 06:20:33
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I googled it and came up with this post from a message board:
Re: What's the difference between SSRI's and SNRI's
If you take a peek at crazymeds.org, they list Paxil and Effexor as the worst offenders in terms of withdrawal. Effexor is especially nasty, for two reasons: it's a double reuptake inhibitor, and it metabolizes twice. Here's the relevant passage:
Quote:
Effexor (venlafaxine hydrochloride) does the double metabolism trick, so its half-lives are 3-7 hours and 9-13 hours. That means the combined half-life is anywhere from 12-20 hours, so it takes anywhere from two to five days to clear out of your system.
That's a ridiculously short half-life, even when both metabolized forms are taken into consideration. There's also a scary second part to this, which I don't entirely believe:
Quote:
Few, if any doctors, will discuss the possibility that Effexor (venlafaxine hydrochloride) could become a permanent part of your life, whether you like the results of Effexor (venlafaxine hydrochloride) or not. Granted that is a very rare adverse effect, but it does happen. It's hard enough to get them to discuss SSRI discontinuation syndrome., let alone get them to admit that Effexor's symptoms are the absolute worst and the longest lasting of all serotonergic drugs. The discontinuation from Paxil (paroxetine) is bad enough, it's much, much worse with Effexor (venlafaxine hydrochloride).
I'm thinking someone was just surprised it took more than a month or two for all the withdrawal side effects to subside. Nonetheless, Effexor is a NASTY to drug to discontinue. I had to do it. Took me a year to wean off of 112.5mg a day. Bouts of rage, insomnia, hypersomnia, nausea, diarrhea, inability to eat for days at a time, flu-symptoms, mood swings, more rage, head zaps, feeling of losing my sanity, you name it I had it.
So please take care.
Last edited by neogbf : 05-31-2005 at 09:13 PM. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 08:11:07
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Let's face it. No meds are probably good for a lifetime's use, but in acute circumstances, where a person is liable to just completely break down, some meds do help. They should be a temporary thing.
When I was on my meds for a short period of time, I'd see the shrink, and he'd ask me how I was doing, but he never got into my background or to what was bothering me, the things that Sarno and other TMS docs do when they are trying to evaluate you. He wanted to know HOW I was doing on the meds. He was the same one who told me that the pain was in my head, and as soon as I understood that the pain would go away. Wrong! The pain, as we know, is real, generated by the mind. So be it.
I can only speak from the experience of being so anxious and depressed and tired that the TMS message was just lost on me. Fortunately, the 5-htp and GABA helped enough for me to calm down and work mentally. If I thought that a six months round of Cymbalta or something would HELP to break my OCD pattern, I would gulp it like candy. I'm not sure if it will, and since I'm making slow but steady progress -- and I'm reconnecting with my human contacts again-- I will not go that route, I think. Not now.
Susan, human contact is so important. The right type of human interaction. So much anxiety, too, is caused by the failure of most of our basic institutions: churches, family, government. Many of us cannot count on anybody but ourselves, and that's a lonely place to be. But far too common. All therapists are are "paid friends". Most don't care about you if you can't cough up the money immediately or if they can't be sure insurance is going to cover the sessions. Most don't take any notes or even remember session to session what your problem is. Should we expect them to, really?
Going back to renee, the OP, she may need some short term help to get her on the right track. If that's what she needs I hope she gets it, but like you say, buyer beware. Some of that stuff can literally kill you.
I'm a bit passionate on this subject ( Can you tell?  ) and am kind of adding beyond my share. Nothing more I can say. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 15:35:10
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Susan, thanks for the details on your own experience with meds. For the reason you mentioned in a later post (very short half-life), effexor can have the effects you experienced. That's why some people have a very tough time weaning themselves off it. Effexor and cymbalta, another snri, I would be afraid of taking. My experience is only with ssri's and I have never had even the slightest feeling of being off in some way. I tried another non-ssri, wellbutrin, several years ago, but that one made me feel wired out of my brain.
I, like many tms-ers, are very skeptical of the proliferation of meds in the past couple of decades, largely caused by big pharma's desire for profits. I think that many (most) on meds would be better off with talk therapy, exercise, improving relationships... Unfortunately, big insurance has steered people from talk therapy to drugs, as it is much cheaper. I think it is good to keep a balanced perspective on meds. Going to depression websites where people outline their horror stories on meds is looking at a self-selected group of people with these problems. How about the millions of others without who have no reason to post their comments to these sites?
As for Mercola, yes, a DO is equivalent to an MD. I didn't realize he had any sort of medical degree. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 19:27:42
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Right...we don't see the success stories. We also rarely see them on sites like askapatient.com where people post about every drug. They're there to tell the horror stories. However, when I looked at the other antidepressant message boards, I didn't see the same nature of withdrawal symptoms from.. let's say Prozac.
I can almost tell when someone is on Effexor or Paxil, they are just not of this world...they have an affect that I can spot pretty easily. I feel badly for them if they ever decide to go off...hopefully, they will be spared the brain zaps, better known as electrical shock syndrome. I agree with your view on talk therapy...I think this is such a tough world now, not just for us with TMS but the young people spend their days online or texting, even when they are together, they are texting, they're holding hands and talking on their respective cell phones. Our parents courted...they had friends...they socialized...computers cause isolation and depression and yes, pills are the answer for too many. If you think I'm opinionated about Effexor, you don't want to hear me go on about texting! :-) |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 20:21:03
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Susan, you'll certainly get no disagreement from me regarding texting and all the other hi-tech ways to be somewhere else. At heart, I'm a luddite. A computer and cell phone is about as tech as I want to get; never mind learning to text, using an i-pod, and all the rest. I really do believe that technology does change brains in ways that are harmful and it separates us from nature and other people. It should be used wisely. Unfortunately, the last generation or two has been raised knowing nothing else.
Regarding Paxil, well, that's an ssri, but more sedating than the others. Maybe that's what you are noticing. If you are going to choose an ssri, I would choose celexa (generic) first, and then lexapro (expensive). Both are basically the same med and both have very mild side effects. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 20:34:56
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| And what say you, renee? |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 20:43:24
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Thanks, wrldtrv. I will start reading up on those but for now have no plans to be on an antidepressant. I am trying hard to find out what's bugging me and with Schubiner's workbook, seem to be getting somewhere.
I deliberately have not upgraded to a Blackberry or Android because I don't want to be on the internet when I'm not at home. I am somewhat addicted to Facebook and spend way too much time there as it is. I do like the ipod for when I am on the train or taking a long walk. Music helps me tremendously with my moods. I was persuaded to get a text plan because despite me telling the, people kept texting me and it got costly, so I gave in but rarely use it. If there's anything I find rude, it's when I am talking to someone and they're staring at their phone or texting. I want to snip their thumbs off 
Anyway, thanks much for the tip on the meds. You seem to know your stuff real well. |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
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Fatigue and Depression
