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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2005 : 11:18:59
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I watched Dr. Sarno's video tapes this weekend. When I put the various things he says about rage together, I came up to the conclusion that except in rare cases such as the molested as a child lady he talked about (Helen?), repressed rage doesn't come into awareness. It continues to be repressed even after a person gets rid of TMS caused pain.
He also states that the unconscioss mind creates TMS pain in order to divert a person's attention from rage that is trying to come into awareness. It is like calling in the Marines.
Repressed rage usually doesn't come into awareness. Not even after TMS pain goes away. The mind is able to repress rage without the assistance of TMS pain divergence strategy. If this is so, why does the unconscioss mind even bother with creating pain? Is it a matter of it being dumb and doing so needlesly? It would seem that even when it caused pain, it wasn't actually responsible for rage being repressed.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 12:16:40
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I'm not sure I understand your question.
The unconscious mind creates pain as a distraction from the rage. It is trying to protect us. It is only when we are aware of this strategy, and fully accept it, that the pain will go away, because the cover is blown.
Instead of the Marines, think of it as the CIA conducting a covert operation. If the operation was discovered by the enemy, it would be aborted, and most likely the agents would be killed. That is what happens with TMS. Once we figure out what the brain is doing, and use specific actions to thwart that activity, the covert operation is blown; the strategy has failed, the brain has no use for it anymore. |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 13:15:30
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I can see how what I wrote might seem like a jumbled mess. Perhaps it will make more sense this way.
Dr. Sarno seems to indicate that usually repressed rage doesn't come to the surface of a person's consciousness. It stays repressed even after TMS's pain producing strategy is gotten rid of.
Therefore, this means that the mind never actually needed TMS pain in order to keep internal rage repressed. It stays repressed without the assistance of TMS pain.
Therefore, it seems as if TMS does its thing, as if it is going to keep rage repressed, when in fact the mind doesn't need its assistance to keep rage repressed.
If anything, it seems as if the main thing it does is keep a person from thinking about current emotional issues, by serving as a distraction.
I do see one connection to the repressed rage. Some of the psychological reasons for the rage that have been suppressed through the years, might have a psychological connection to a person's current emotional state. For example, if as a child a person was conditioned to be submissive to their parents (and in the process repressed a lot of rage producing anger), such a submissive way of being might effect a person in adulthood.
Sorry for perhaps being overly detailed about all of this. The thing is that I've been misled in my life in ways that cause me to question things thoroughly (for example, I misled when I was a cult member). For the most part my mind has accepted TMS theory (even from day one it logically made a lot of sense), but whenver I come up with a doubt I feel the need to question it as opposed to ignoring it as if it doesn't exist (not questioning doubts is partly what enabled me to be a cult member). Thus far for just about every doubt, I've been able to come up with an explanation that is hard to refute. The evidence keeps stacking up in favor of TMS theory. Perhaps this might make the process take a little longer. On the other hand, once it completely sinks in, it might do so in a very thorough manner.
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 17:58:51
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Hi Albert.
Just because we can not open up the subconscious and view it like a ride on a glass bottom boat,does not mean we can't send IT messages or see how it responds,or fish stuff out of it.We can also ,after self study,begin to get a good idea of what our own looks like.We will never know the EXACT nature of it,but we can know enough of it to overcome TMS and a lot of other related maladies.
A good metaphor would be atomic and subatomic physics.We can NOT see atoms.None the less there existence was postulated,experiments conducted on the presumption of their having certain properties,data collected about the results of the studies,and characteristics of their properties updated and amended....sometimes wild speculations proved correct,and some old stand-by accepted theories are discarded.None the less every ditchdigger,drywaller,accountant and painter in the western world believes in their existence even though not a ONE of them has ever seen one(electron microscope images are not truly "pictures" as atomic particles are constantly in motion...the images are rebounded photon energy capturing an eeenth of their billionfold properties...Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle mathematically proves that the more we know about an atoms location the less we can know about it's orbit and true nature and vice versa...uh oh...you got me going!!)
ANOTHER reason why I related to Sarno was his comparison to a science that I have read extensively on,and his observations quite astute.
If medicine were as open-minded(as Sarno points out) we would have a lot less sick and injured people.
The TMS is in response to a perceived threat.Somewhere in your mindbody make-up,an internal response to an external event,real or perceived.It is usually an over-reaction of the "coping"system that has had to evolve at breakneck speed in the last two or three centuries.It can either be one major event that overflows the system,or a collection of smaller ones,or any combination thereof.
The unconscious fears a "break-out" i.e. one of Alberts private little excorcist moments...a "nervous breakdown"...(my father had one of those...funny...no one has them any more)
....about your opening statement about it never coming into awareness...I can absolutely pinpoint a few things that we're going on when my "episode" began,but it was years after the fact...and who knows if I really understand to what depth or their full scope...probably not.At the time,I was completely unaware....the pain made good and sure of that.
hope that helps....sorry about the science lesson......I love my scientist heroes ( Bohr,Einstein,Heisenberg,Newton,Halley,etc.....)
peace.
Baseball65 |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 18:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
I'm not sure I understand your question.
The unconscious mind creates pain as a distraction from the rage. It is trying to protect us. It is only when we are aware of this strategy, and fully accept it, that the pain will go away, because the cover is blown.
Instead of the Marines, think of it as the CIA conducting a covert operation. If the operation was discovered by the enemy, it would be aborted, and most likely the agents would be killed. That is what happens with TMS. Once we figure out what the brain is doing, and use specific actions to thwart that activity, the covert operation is blown; the strategy has failed, the brain has no use for it anymore.
I agree with what you are saying Dave. The only question in my mind wrt my TMS case is the following question. Are my TMS symptoms still there because there is something about my childhood emotional experience that I still have to discover, or, have I basically discovered and experienced the emotions but i've only released a small quantity and there are a lot more of the same variety to release before symptoms subside. Sarno refers to the degree of rage as a common reason why symptoms persist even after much of the cover of the operation is revealed. I'm wondering whether I may be one of the 5 or 10% of TMS suffers who don't recover because the fear is just too great. My trauma occured first in infancy and so changing that belief system is proving to be one hell of a challenge. It seems that the earlier the emotional trouble starts the harder it is to change it. Comments? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 19:29:50
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Quote from Dave:
"Instead of the Marines, think of it as the CIA conducting a covert operation. If the operation was discovered by the enemy, it would be aborted, and most likely the agents would be killed. That is what happens with TMS. Once we figure out what the brain is doing, and use specific actions to thwart that activity, the covert operation is blown; the strategy has failed, the brain has no use for it anymore."
___________________________________________________________
Dave, That's a nice analogy to TMS and the CIA. I like it.
Regards,
tt |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 19:52:46
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| Sarno's explanation about unconscious rage is just a theory! Though I agree with most of what Sarno says, this is where I tend to trust my own instincts over his theory. Find what works for you. You don't have to swallow everything he says in order to recover 100% from tms. |
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UK-Pete
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 07:59:23
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I posted this a few days ago, but I think my questions are on the similar lines to Albert's so I thought I'd add it again.
I have spent the last couple of days re-watching the Sarno videos and one area left a few unanswered questions. He states (in response to an audience question) that everyone has unconcious rage, and implies that everyone must have some level of TMS syndrome (or equivalent e.g. excema). Now, as not everyone in the West is "disabled" by such conditions, does this means that some people have more serious rage than others? (and hence have to find a more serious outlet by increasing the pain, excema, depression or whatever?)
Extending this further, Sarno implies that you don't need to (or can't) reduce your unconcious rage but you can just understand it and its causes better. When this level of understanding is reached, your unconcious realises that creating the distraction (e.g. TMS) is no longer working and so stops. However, if your rage is still there and TMS resulted as a means of distracting you from tipping the rage into the concious mind, the rage must find another outlet somewhere. Does this mean that once you are a sufferer of a mind-body condition you are destined to just keep getting a series of different conditions, as your unconcious tries to keep one step ahead of us? Or that eventually the rage must surface when all distractions have failed and that everyone that Sarno 'cures' eventually goes bananas  ?
The only explanation I can think of for this is that you CAN influence the level of unconcious rage, and that all the pyscological work either removes parts of the rage by fixing the underlying problem (e.g. convincing your unconcious mind that it is OK to have negative feelings about family) or at least reducing the rage by acknowledging it. Using the 'resevoir of rage' concept, does the work of trying to get to grips with the rage actual lesson the volume of rage a little, meaning your mind can reduce the TMS situation, but at a later date if the rage increases (perhaps for a different underlying reason) then a TMS condition results? We probably won't get an answer to this, my working assumption is that
we need to keep on top of the rage - for some people all that is needed is a bit of self-analysis here and there but for others it could require pyscotherapy to actually sort out the major causes of the rage itself |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 09:18:32
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It's counterproductive to intellectualize too much about the underlying process of TMS.
First of all, it is not logical! When it comes to emotions, our species is not very evolved. Of course, if given the choice, we would all rather feel the rage than the pain. The defense is unnecessary, yet it is very real.
Intellectualizing is a defense too. It is not necessary to understand the details of how TMS works; if it was, nobody would get better because the fact is, we really don't know how it works. All we have is a theory based on clinical experience and more theories (specifically those of Dr. Freud). I would not be surprised to learn that the details of Dr. Sarno's theory are completely wrong. |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 10:13:41
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Being obsessed about this whole thing as I am, I thought about this issue some more since I've posted.
This morning before going to work I read a little of Sarno's "The Mindbody (love that word) Prescription" and a couple of things stood out. From pg. 186, "In many years of diagnosing and treating a psychosomatic disorder induced by rage, I know of only one person whose feelings broke through into consciousness (Helen). Psychotherapists who work with me report that they only see the process occasionally."
So I figure that one of the things thinking emotionally/looking for sources of rage does, is help us gain awareness of what causes TMS.
I think it also helps with self awareness outside of the scope of TMS. There is a lot about my psychological self that I've considered in the past month that I haven't paid suitable attention to. I believe that it is helping me to do so. In a way I feel that I need to be thankfull to TMS, because it has played a key role, whether it intended to or not, in making me become more self aware. Kind of ironic, considering its main purpose.
Regarding my over analyzing things, I think one of my problems is that I've sort of conditioned my self to be resistent to conditioning, if that makes sense, or is even possible. I guess I'll just have to be patient and keep working at it.
Baseball65:
I've spent some time reading about quantum mechanics. I know about guys such a Debroglie, Bohr, Bohm, Heisenberg, Schrodinger etc. I can't say I figured it all out. Especially since I don't know the math. I'm confused about the some of the points. For example, physicists will say that a particle doesn't have a definite motion or location. These attributes exist only as a possibility until an observer comes into the picture an actuates one of them. Well, what if you did the same thing with a speeding car? You couldn't measure it's speed and location at the same time. You could only measure one thing. But that doesn't mean that at any given instance a car doesn't have a definite speed or location, regardless of what some observer is imposing on it. Or physicists will say that a photon can't be a particle and wave at the same time. Why not? Perhaps a particle's nature has nothing to do with what we can imagine about it, and it is possible for it to have particle like and wave like attributes at the same time. And as far as long distance communication between particles is concerned, who knows enough about time/space to say how they can interact? Anyway, this is the wrong place for such discussion. Some day we'll talk about it. I get the impression that you know more about it than I do. If we go to a baseball game we can imagine that the ball is a photon of light. We'll talk about TMS, quantum mechanics and guitar players, and drive the fans sitting near us nuts. |
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Confused about repressed rage
