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Gro
Norway
5 Posts |
 Posted - 10/27/2010 : 14:25:17
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Hei.
Little question from a violinist with pain.
I've been having problems with my back and left arm. My upper back has been really sore since spring-time, and finally quit on me in early september (which is when the arm-pain also started). Too much tension in the muscles, the doctors said, just need to relax for some time. Now after treatment (naprapath, reflexologist) my back is much better, just a little stiff. But my left arm is still weak and sometimes painful. And the shoulder aera as well.
I guess RSI is the right word to use for my condition.
Now quoting dr. Sarno from "The Mindbody Prescription":
"How can I tell the difference between ordinary muscle soreness and the pain of TMS?
The answer is that muscle soreness goes away after a couple of days, TMS doesn't.
My pain does not go away.
But I keep doing the same activity - violin playing - every day. I DID stop for two weeks, got better, started playing again, got a little worse, kept playing, got better while playing. (in my back, but not arm).
Playing the violin is not a "normal" way of using your body and muscles. It's uncomfortable and static. Just go on youtube and watch someone play. Like Janine Jansen.
So I don't know what to think. Should I quit playing for a couple a months and see what happens? Keep going?
I Should probably mention that I have a "perfect" TMS-personality. And was seeing a psychologist for 6 weeks (august-september), because of a mild depression. (lot of pressure in the music-business).
If anyone has anything to say about this, I will be very very very grateful :) I'm really frustrated and sad... Making music is my passion and profession, I need my body to work!!
I'm a Norwegain girl, 22, by the way. sorry for my not-so-good english ;) |
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heelsdown
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 22:11:58
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Hi Gro,
I'm new here too, but I noticed no one had responded to you yet, so I thought I would tell you what I think. Based on what I have learned so far.
Sounds like TMS to me. Even though you may think that violin playing isn't a natural movement, the body has a great ability to adapt and heal. If anything, your arm/shoulder should adapt to the movement, get stronger, and have LESS pain over time.
According to Sarno and others, RSI doesn't really exist. It is all TMS! Real injuries heal. The fact that you still have pain and the fact that there was not a traumatic injury to set it off, suggest tms.
Also, the personality, history of depression are all very important. Basically, if TMS makes sense to you in the context of your situation, it is most likely tms.
Another thing, it seems that TMS affects people in the area where it will hinder them most and be most likely to attract attention and distress. People who type and do computer work for a living get arm/wrist pain or back pain, making it hard to do their jobs. I am very physically active and work on my feet all day. My TMS is in my feet, preventing me from doing my job (which is also my passion!). This seems the same for you.
So, I'm not a doctor... take my advice with a grain of salt. But I would guess you have TMS and you should continue playing, learn more about TMS, and work to fix it from that angle.
Good luck! |
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Forfeet
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2010 : 03:04:06
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Gro,
I believe that somewhere in either Sarno's "The Divided Mind" or perhaps in Dr. Schubiner's online lectures, there is an example of a musician with TMS, may have even been a violin player. Perhaps someone else reading this can pinpoint the example I'm talking about. If I find it I'll post where it is located.
The point made was that the activity, in your case violin playing, was not causing pain for several years and then over time there was an onset of pain. Don't know if this is the case for you. Why is the pain present now but wasn't for several years? From what I remember from the case example was that their conclusion in absence of specific structural findings was likely TMS.
What other psychological issues, in addition to the pressure of the music business, which is plenty, may be adding to the stress? Like heelsdown, I am also not a doctor but just passing along from memory what I've read and giving you some things to think about as you gather more information. |
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Gro
Norway
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 10:29:55
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Thank you so much for your replies!
I've been thinking a lot about why the pain is suddenly present now,
because I've been playing since I was five (not as much though, but still...)
I did have problems about 4 years ago. I was diagnosed with tendonitis in my right arm (not the same arm as this time). I
stopped playing completely for about 4 months and was treated with
acupuncture. The pain gradually went away, and I have not
had any problems with that arm ever since. Didn't occur to me
that these kind of problems could be coming from my brain.
I also wonder why some musicians can play all they want and never
get any pain anywhere, while others are suffering constantly.
One of my friends used to have problems with her back, but she
said it all went away when she started swimming. She ment the reason
why she was in pain, was that her back wasn't strong enough to support her.
So I've been thinking that I'm in pain because my muscles are too weak to do what I'm doing.
Other psychological issues adding stress in my life - well, there are many I guess. Stuff I've been sorting out with my psychologist: I'm overambitious and perfectionistic and scared to death by the thought of "not making it" as a musician. My parents are rather careless of my existence, I have pretty low self image and I'm quite lonely.
And I'm working on all of that of course ;)
I sort of feel that I'm very well aware of my feelings, I don't see why my brain needs to give me pain in addition. If I have TMS.
I have read "Healing Back Pain" and "The Mindbody prescription", and it makes sense. But I can't help to think about all my musicians collegues who also have/had troubles -and who are recovering from their troubles in other ways than "thinking it away".
Hugs |
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heelsdown
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 12:42:29
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Hi Gro,
I feel like I can relate to you because I am also a young female (24) and trying to succeed in my chosen profession and passion (horses) and having foot problems has put that on hold for 2 years!
Same personality too- perfectionist, scared of not doing well (or excellent!), low-self esteem made up for by overachievement, lonely.
Really, I would probably bet money that your problems are due to tms.
The reasoning of "my muscles are not strong enough" is ridiculous because if you are constantly using certain muscles for an activity, how could they NOT be strong enough! Our bodies adapt.
As for why you are having pain now? Has anything recently changed in your life? Any big stressors, or little ones, or even "good" things? You said you have been working with a therapist for depression. Do you feel like your depression has reduced at all? If it has, the pain may be trying to take it's place. This is what happened to me. Depression and eating disorder reduced, pain came on.
Also, you said you feel like you are aware of your feelings. But everyone has repressed feelings that you are NOT aware of. Your mind represses them because they are socially unacceptable. I thought I was aware of my feelings too. But I realized that I hardly EVER feel anger. I thought that was normal. But turns out, I am repressing it and didn't even know.
ALSO! Some musicians can probably play and play without problems because they don't have the tms defense meachanism- don't have the personality for it- don't have the stressors- etc. As for the musicians who are recovering in other ways- well, they are not you! Their lives and personalities might be totally different. They might have tms and be having a "placebo" cure effect and it will come back. Or move to a different area of the body. Or they might have sustained a minor "real" injury and it is healing, just like normal injuries do. remember, real injuries heal!
Hope any of this helps you. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2010 : 10:37:52
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Depression is what Dr. Sarno calls an affective form of TMS. It's a TMS defense mechanism but not a muscular one.
I've tried well over a 100 acupuncture sessions, the latest major independent study concludes any beneficial effect are placebo. In my opinion the sole benefit of acupuncture is the relaxation aspect. For an hour we are removed from our day to day stressful environment, forced to be still and quiet on a comfortable massage table, listening to soothing music warmed by heat lamps.
Acupuncture may be a good form of conditioning to feel what's it's like to relax, but I found afterwards, as soon as I got into the parking lot and back on the road of life, the relaxation was all gone until the next session.
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6415
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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Edited by - tennis tom on 10/30/2010 12:42:06 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2010 : 12:08:43
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Hey Gro,
I'm an amateur pianist with problems in both hands. It's been a bear, thus far proving to be the most intransigent of my long and illustrious career as a TMS'er. :>)
How did you manage to stop for 4 months??!! That would be very, very hard for me.
Heels, though a newcomer, has a lot of wisdom. She's right on all counts.
A> |
Edited by - art on 10/30/2010 12:10:08 |
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Gro
Norway
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 11:51:06
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Your replies helps a lot, I assure you. Thank you :)
The depression has definitely reduced, a lot too. Funny thing, the depression and back pain came sneaking up on me at the same time. I actually had my first appointment with the psychologist the day after my first session with the naprapath. And now the two have diminished equally. They're still sneaking around, but I can handle it.
As for other stressors- well, there is always something I guess. Disappointments especially. I was supposed to get a scholarship to go study abroad this fall. But the administration in my school didn’t manage to send my application form down in time, so I lost my place. (I’ve been really mad/sad about this, it was pretty discouraging to have to start another year in a place where I feel stuck). I also just had an audition that went really badly (nerves controlled me completely). Actually, my arm pain started about a week and a half before this audition. I half-heartedly expected the pain to go away after the audition, but it did not I’m afraid.
Come to think of it - the first signs of back pain came about 3 weeks before my exam in May this year.
When my body decided to completely stop working i September I remember I told the people in school that "it feels like my body is trying to tell me something important. That I souldn't be playing violin, it's not good for me."
I suppose I’m answering my own questions here. I have TMS. Quite definitely. At least I hope so, because TMS is beatable. And I will beat it (!!!)
I do however think it is hard to find out what kind of emotions I am repressing. I have been writing a large number of letters to people in my life I am angry with for some reason or another(I started doing this before I had even heard about TMS). I have been searching my brain for any possible unconscious emotion; I don’t know where to look any more. But when it comes to anger, I’m like you heelsdown. I don’t know how to feel it. I get sad or frustrated in stead, I feel like I have to force it to feel it, but that’s not really possible.
I think the reason why I was able to stop completely for 4 months was my fear. I was terrified that I would have chronic tendonitis for the rest of my life, so I just stopped. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 17:11:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gro
I do however think it is hard to find out what kind of emotions I am repressing.
I have been searching my brain for any possible unconscious emotion; I don’t know where to look any more.
You do not need to find out what you are repressing. You only need to understand the Good Doctor's TMS theory that emotional stress can cause real pain that is benign.
You are over-thinking this, quit searching your brain, that's the distraction. Go ahead and do what you want to do and de-condition yourself from fear of doing.
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6415
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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Gro
Norway
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2010 : 10:35:36
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Over-thinking is a disease I have :)
Thanks for that, I needed a wakeupcall.
I'm going to school to practice now, my arm is aching more that ever. fight fight fight... |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2010 : 06:25:35
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Hiya Gro
I was an avid musician who developed "RSI" - which progressively got worse and worse. It's now been over a year since any symptoms prevented me from doing anything, and is was all down to using TMS techniques. I can recognise your attitude to "fight" the pain - but this is not going to work - you're fighting against your subconscious and that is far more powerful than the conscious. Trying to "fight" through the pain will most likely make things worse. You need to really start to understand why the pain has started. You need to start jornaling, meditating, target setting - gradually deconditioning yourself to the pain response you get when playing violin.
As a point of hope for you, my RSI went from being so bad that i could barely use my hands for anything without causing pain, to now where i spend hours a day on the computer and playing piano. 100% it was because of Sarno's techniques.
Check out the TMS website: www.rsi-backpain.co.uk |
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Gro
Norway
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 13:15:01
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Thank you for your response, Gibbon.
Don't worry, I'm not trying to ignore any issues I have or denying the cause of my pain.
I am currently working with Schubiners book "unlearn your pain", hopefully to be able reprogam my brain (journaling, mindful meditation, self-talk...).
The last couple of months I've realized how self-destructive my thoughts are, I'm almost glad (in a strange way) I got this pain. For me it has been a clear message that something in my life (especially my thought-pattern) has to change. I know it's not done in a heartbeat, but I'm willing to do the work continuously for a long long time.
As for my current pain - I'm doing a hell of a lot better. It's acting in a strange way. I usually wake up with a little pain, but I'm sort of able to "play it off" quite quickly. I practice from 3-5 hours a day, the pain is never a big issue during that time. Yay :)
As I'm writing right now I can feel NO PAIN AT ALL.
All thanks to dr. Sarno, I guess!
Cheers
from snowy Scandinavia
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Help? :(
