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art
1903 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2010 : 08:05:48
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Hey wrld,
Nice to see your post...I've not been around in a while either, but checked back the other day due to some current issues. I'm very similar to you with respect to the hypo and anxiety, and can identify right down the line. It's a constant battle.
The real b...tch is anxiety over anxiety, or worry over worry, as that can escalate viciously.
You sound like you've made some real strides (no pun intended :-)...What's set me back lately is that I'm now pushing 60 which I'm finding difficult to reconcile with my usual TMS strategies, the ones that have worked for me in the past...
Wishing you well,
A. |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 11:02:41
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Wrld & Art,
I relate totally to you both! I am def a hypochondriac w/ anxiety. Lately, I have been way too focused on death and freaking myself out..I go thru these phases thru the years..All we can do is support each other's healing & try to stay positive, in the now!
Hugs,
K |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2010 : 15:53:32
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Singer Artist and Art--I remember you both very well. Good to hear from you again!
Art, you are so right about the "anxiety about the anxiety!" That is a killer. A current example: I've had hamstring tendonitis off/on for many yrs, possibly due to a partial rupture I had about 25 yrs ago. It has never gotten in the way of my running; in fact, the past year, I did more than in about 20 yrs, including lots of fast tough races. But a few weeks ago I bought a nice new road bike, complete with the toe cleats and shoes. Never having used these before I'd forgotten that used aggressively, they could present a problem for that hamstring. After the first couple of rides, where I had really "pulled" for greater power and speed, my hamstring felt sore. The guy at the bike shop said it was unnecessary to pull, but to just concentrate on the push movement and the rest takes care of itself. I tried that and it seemed much better. Unfortunately, I became so hyper-vigilant about noticing, comparing the symptoms, that I felt there was some small irritation, but so mild I couldn't be sure. Didn't matter. I'm catastrophizing about something that is trivial.
I can also see where pushing 60, Art, could bring up further anxiety. I just turned 56, and while supremely healthy despite a PSA and prostate biopsy (false positive) a few months ago, it's obvious time is heading the wrong direction. And that's where I can also relate to your fear of death, Singer Artist. Yes, espec during the prostate cancer scare.
Life goes on |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 13:39:11
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I've lost a lot in the last 5 years. It's extremely depressing. I'm running every other day, and it's not nearly enough. But when I start getting in 5 -6 days per week, I end up injured. the calculus involved in discerning TMS from normal age related decline has become dauntingly complicated. I'm weary with it all.
This is a tough time of year for me anyway because I adore running in the heat. I'm never happier than when sweating my guts out. Hence, any fear of injury is doubled. I got past the hamstring pull which I'm almost certain was real, knee pain (not sure), and now metatarsalgia which I'm assuming is TMS.
I tell you wrld, it would be a helluva lot easier to just give up the running. I can't though. I love it too much. |
Edited by - art on 07/03/2010 13:40:50 |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 17:46:43
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hi art- we communicated a few years ago. i too have been in the injury rut ALOT. i LOVE running and am compulsive but this year i think i've run 3 months because of an achilles issue. mri said tendonosis - real diagnosis. i have tried every treatment to no avail. i hate running through the pain. i've started running again but it's darn hard to get through the pain. so as you say, discerning real v. tms is the real problem for me.
i've lost almost a year of running because of this. in the last 3 weeks i've built up my rnning to 30 minutes. achilles still hurts but i am continuing but the fear of doing further damage and the fear of it never getting better are still with me
i understand fully what you are going thorugh |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 13:21:26
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Art & HSB,
I feel for you regarding the running. I would put myself in the same category. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that improves my mood like running. I have been a runner 32 yrs off and on, and the off has usually been because of injuries. Art, I feel exactly as you do about running in the heat and sweating my ass off. I love it! Having to take time off because of an injury is so depressing and scary because it feels like one day, I am invincible and the next, an invalid.
So much of this is psychological, I know. For example, the recent very mild flareup of the hamstring tendonitis I'm experiencing after riding my new bike with toe cleats, would not have phased me a few yrs ago. What changed is that I learned I had a partial rupture 25 yrs ago that I wasn't even aware of. Sure, that was always a problem area w/ frequent tendonitis, but I ran through it and didn't worry. Now, the idea of a piece of the muscle not attached freaks me out and I am paranoid about doing anything to irritate it. This makes no sense, of course. If anything bad were going to happen, it surely would have happened over the past 25 yrs. Even the ortho doc a few yrs ago said to keep doing what I'm doing and just go easy on it when it flares up.
Ironically, in the last couple of years, as I upped my running and racing fairly dramatically, I have not had much problem with that hamstring. The thing that helped the most, I think, was substituting a foam roller for most of my stretching. It seems to do much of the job of stretching without the risk of tear.
Sorry, guys, to be running on about these non-TMS details, but as fellow runners, you might relate. By the way, are either of you familiar with the trend in minimalist or barefoot running? Since reading "Born to Run" last year I have gotten very interested in the subject and even bought a pair of Vibram Five Fingers, which I am experimenting with. I am also experimenting with barefoot running. The idea is to get away from orthotics and hi-tech shoes that weaken your feet and instead strengthen the muscles and tendons that should provide all the cushioning and support you need. The tentative result? Even though I had plantar fascitis beforehand, this type of running feels more comfortable than in shoes. Actually, barefoot feels the best.
Well, I woke up this holiday morning somatizing like crazy about my hamstring because I felt a slight irritation as I lay in bed. But in a couple of hours I'm going out for a 15 mile run and I know I'll feel much better mentally and physically afterwards. I have a very tough trail marathon scheduled for October in the hills above Berkeley and haven't been putting in many miles because of the PF.
Art, I wouldn't throw in the towel on running just because you are 60. If you don't have any serious diagnosable problem, eg severely deteriorated knees or hips, I would find a way to continue something that gives you so much pleasure. Have you considered ultra-running? I'm serious. I know several local ultra runners, incl a couple of docs, and they all agree that ultras are easier on the body because you are running much more slowly. One woman, who has done Badwater, Leadville, about 100 others, told me she moved up to ultras specifically because of all the injuries she was getting as a marathoner. I will probably make the leap myself someday.
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 14:55:28
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hi wrldtrv-
i did go for a 5 mile run this morning in the heat. loved the sweat. mhy achilles hurt every step of the way. at this point it feels the same way it did almsot a year ago when the saga started and i went through every treatment imaginable ANd taking tons of time off from running. so mhy head was spinning - am i making it worse by running; because i am running and it hurts, it won't ever get better - ad nauseum. i just can't bear to continue to take time and go for treatments, etc. etc. only thing left is PRP and i am so hesitatnt to do that. i am going to continue to try to run - damn - stopping hasn't helped it. ran 5 miles - most in months and months. i used to run marathons. if only i were positive it would get better even through running. |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 14:59:41
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Taoist Pilgrim,
I really feel your pain! This board has help me sooo much for several years now..However, I keep coming back w/ more 'symptoms' moving all over the place (mostly where there was, at one time, a physical injury)..I also battle hypochondriasis, untreated..On a silly note, one time the bottom of my feet turned orange!! I ran to the dermatologist thinking my liver was failing..he asked "have you been drinking a lot of carrot juice lately?" WHEW, what a relief & we both cracked up laughing..Sometimes you have to laugh at yourself..my neice & I both try to make light of this very painful disorder..Didn't realize Sarno said it was also TMS!
Art & wrldtrv (hiya wrldtrv great to hear from you!!),
I understand you both completely! Glad the prostate was a false positive wrldtrv!
I used to run everyday for years! The high is wonderful! But, since 3 real & major knee injuries (in which,thank God, I avoided the knife) I have stopped running & playing tennis too. I blame it on the weight I gained as well..The weight I blame on peri-menopause..Oh vey! If it's not one thing, it's another!! I cannot stand in one spot for more then a minute without my knee freaking out. That part sure smells of TMS, but instead of getting down in there to the core issues of TMS, I just don't stand in one spot too long, don't run or play tennis. That has Got to change though..One thing, for sure, the mind & one's attitude is soooo important! On a positive note, I don't believe in us humans definitely declining with age..I have a lot of friends in their 80's who put me to shame! They run, play tennis, hike, life weights, etc..Guess they aren't TMSers like us..Lucky them!
Hugs to you both,
Karen |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 09:01:00
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2 out of 3 ain't bad. Ran thought the metatarsalga and knee pain without incident. Both are much better this am. Knee pain entirely gone. Toe/ball of foot mostly gone.
But these are relatively easy to cultivate that "screw it, I'm going for it" feeling. It's a toe for crying out loud. I doubt I'm going to cripple myself. Same general idea with the knee. PLus, in both cases the "injuries" made no sense.
The hammie's a different kettle of fish because there the stakes *are* high. One *can* cripple oneself, at least temporarily. Plus I'm just about 100 percent certain the injury was real. It was a pull which for me is not typical TMS and the injury made a lot of sense in the context of what was going on activity-wise for me. Plus, I went kickbiking the other day which is hammie intensive. Still, I'm plowing ahead. I wish I could lose the fear as in my view that's key. In my opinion you don't even have to buy TMS. If you stop fearing the pain, that's enough. Or at least it has been for me.
hsb, I'm sorry you're stuck in the same old rut. I know it's been years for you and you've lost a tremendous amount of running time I notice you made a point of stating that you had a "real diagnosis" for your year old injury. I could paper my walls with those. If an injury isn't getting worse, even just from standard runner's advice and forgetting the TMS idea, it's generally considered ok to proceed. It's been an entire year if I read your post correctly...I'm also reading that many sports docs are catching up with the idea that it's often best not to rest. Their model is physiological, but the bottom line is the same "keep running."
wrld, I respect your struggle immensely. One thing to have the fear, another to face it. I plan on writing later about your suggestions, both of which are very interesting to me.. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 11:44:23
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Art, if I remember correctly, you had a hamstring issue and also used your kick bike often a few yrs ago. Is this the same hamstring problem and have you tried giving up the kick bike ("hamstring intensive") for awhile to see if that's aggravating it? Gentle running has got to be easier on it than kick biking. You're right; the hamstring is a lot scarier area than a toe.
HSB--I'm glad you enjoyed your run this AM. What is PRP?
A year seems like a long time to still be having achilles pain. That's one injury I don't think I've ever had.
I did a 13 mile run yesterday and would have done the 15 I planned, but we got a heavy rainstorm. Ironically, the area I was most concerned about (hamstring) was completely normal, while PF was bothering me in the foot that had bothered me least previously. Regarding the hamstring, I'm starting to believe the symptoms are mostly psychosomatic. It didn't begin that way a few weeks ago when I first rode my new bike; that was real. But, I have become so paranoid about any symptoms in that hamstring that I am on constant watch, comparing and contrasting the vague sensations, day to day. Mostly, the sensations are so mild I can't even be sure they are real and not coming from my brain. A simple experiment demonstrates this process: Take any bodily part; a a hand, a foot--whatever, and start to concentrate deeply on this part. After a few minutes you will inevitibly start to feel various tickles, aches, and other sensations. In fact, you will probably find it so uncomfortable you will have to end the exercise.
Sorry to ramble.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 13:25:48
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Wrld...I've actually not been on the kickbike in quite a while, but was feeling brave and decided to do 10 gentle minutes. In hindsightI wish I hadn't as at least I was running and it seemed under control, but the reality is that it was ten gentle minutes and it's been a month since I injured it so it should be ok....It was a grade one tear manifesting as pain and stiffness which went away in a couple days. I took two solid weeks off, the most downtime in a very long while, but I don't want to mess around with a torn hammie, no matter how slight...
As always, I'm blown away at how effective TMS treatment generally is. For the metartasalgia most sports docs/ podiatrists would have suggested a heavy course of "rice" , anti-inflams, and possibly orthotics, special pads, and cortisone shot...Instead a simple "screw it" took care of it...
Today was my off day. Tomorrow high 90's and humid. Our kind of weather!! :>)
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 12:28:24
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| Well it's been over a week now that i've been running with the achilles stuff. I would have to say that it has gotten worse. I swear i had about 5 pain free days 2 weeks ago -- that's when i decided to run through everything. the last week i've run 4x and the achilles really hurts - all the time as usual, not just with running. i hate this on again off again stuff - stop running, start running, etc. if i run through the pain, i keep thinking this is the way it is always going to be - chronic achilles issues. now i am not sure i should even bike. back to square one it seems. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 20:53:59
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HSB--Sorry to hear the problem continues. I understand the dilemma of trying to straddle two sides of the fence: is it TMS or real injury? I guess I usually try to hedge my bets by considering both. For example, regarding the hamstring tendonitis that has flared up recently: The week before last, I think I ran 3 miles. The past week I decided, to hell with it, I'm going to go for it, and I ran 40 miles with little problem. I completed the week with a 12 miler Saturday and I felt fine Sunday. But today (Mon), the hamstring is sore. Okay, is this DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness), the result of a hard week when the previous weeks were so light? Sounds reasonable. On the other hand, this hamstring has served as an excellent distractor from the very real non-physical issues in my life.
I don't know the answer. TMS theory says one must totally believe or there is no cure. Maybe that's correct, but I have never been able to put that into practice either with religion or with TMS. I don't have the type of personality that can accept on faith, surrender, turn off the thinking. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2010 : 09:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by hsb
Well it's been over a week now that i've been running with the achilles stuff. I would have to say that it has gotten worse. I swear i had about 5 pain free days 2 weeks ago -- that's when i decided to run through everything. the last week i've run 4x and the achilles really hurts - all the time as usual, not just with running. i hate this on again off again stuff - stop running, start running, etc. if i run through the pain, i keep thinking this is the way it is always going to be - chronic achilles issues. now i am not sure i should even bike. back to square one it seems.
To tell you the truth hsb, I think you night consider giving up running. You've been miserable for years. Why put yourself through this? Since your symptoms show no signs of going away, and since you show no signs of changing the way you respond to them, you're locked in a paralyzing stalemate. I've been here off and on for 5 years, and anything you write in the present could easily be mistaken for your posts back in the old days.
You're simply tormenting yourself with questions that cannot be answered except experientially, that is by running through the pain. There is I don't believe any other way. You've been resting this latest injury for what, one full year? Had you snapped your femur in two, it would have healed in a couple of months. My son-in-law tore his achilles 6 months ago. That is, he actually ripped it. He was back to running on the treadmill in 12 weeks.
Look, I sympathize. the stakes are high. I've had a godawful time running through the fear of re-injuring my hamstring. But at a certain point it occurred to me that no amount of running was worth all this psychic pain. If my hamstring was going to tear again, then it was and it wasn't worth living in fear over. Lo and behold, almost instantly it began to feel better.
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2010 : 10:17:24
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thanks art. i do believe and doctors tend to agree, that a tear is better than tendonosis which is what i supposedly have. you rest, you heal. tendonosis is a wearing away of the collagen and hard to get back.
i often think about giving up running, but i don't want to and won't give up just yet. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2010 : 11:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by hsb
thanks art. i do believe and doctors tend to agree, that a tear is better than tendonosis which is what i supposedly have. you rest, you heal. tendonosis is a wearing away of the collagen and hard to get back.
i often think about giving up running, but i don't want to and won't give up just yet.
Hs, believe me, I get it. I'm as tortured and tormented by this stuff as anyone. But after 12 months, I'd get out there and run.
It was interesting to me to see that even Wikipedia has this to say about tendinosis:
Many patients report stressful situations in their life in correlation with the beginnings of pain which may contribute to the symptoms.
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Edited by - art on 07/13/2010 11:07:27 |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2010 : 23:36:04
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C'mon you guys, what's with this ageism. I'm 60 next year and honestly I'm better than ever. I look younger than ten years ago.
DO read Born To Run if you haven't. Excellent for TMSers.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 19:43:42
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"Born to Run" is a great book, Wavy. Read it twice.
HSB--I looked up "tendonosis" after you mentioned it. I always thought it was just a more chronic case of tendonitis, but apparently it is two distinct conditions (as you know) and often doesn't have the same causes, symptoms, or treatments. I have had chronic tendonitis for about 25-30 yrs, but that is most likely due to the partial rupture I had so many yrs ago.
Not to make this an "injury" board, but what did your doc say to do for tendonosis? From what I picked it, it sounded like the most important thing is to get blood to the area so that it can heal. Eccentric contraction exercises was one way mentioned, eg resisting (gently)while the muscle is lengthening.
It seems to me, HSB, that either you have TMS or a real condition. Rather than being in limbo, I would want to move in one direction or the other. If you truly believe TMS, pursue that; if real injury, eg tendonosis, don't waste time psychoanalyzing it, but find out what can be done to treat it and do that 100%.
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 09:18:46
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hi wrld traveler. so far i have done: PT, graston, chiropractor, acupuncture, stopped running for at least 4 months; orthotics, stretching, e-stim, ultrasound, strengthening, tons and tons of eccentrics.
when this started last july, i stopped running for 4 months and did all the treatments and then wore a boot for 3 weeks and had pt and the pain eventually went away. one day the pain went away - was it the boot????
i started running and ran for 3 months and the pain came back. i stopped running again in FEBRUARY. since february i ahve tried all of the above treatments. last month i got so frustrated and started to do some light running and biking. the pain is still there. i think i had about 5 days of no pain during this whole thing.
this is definitely taking longer to heal than most other peoples' injuries --- that is why i think TMS. it's a tough decision whether it is or isn't because of the chronicity of tendonosis. one year with 3 months of running seems like a long time to heal????????
i have done eccentrics every day since february.
so that's where i am at. the only thing left for me is the PRP. platelet rich plasma injections as the professional athletes have done.
right now i am of the mindset that this is a chronic thing and i am going to ahve this pain the rest of my life. that's why i decided to run and bike but with pain. what else is there do? |
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Do I need to beat the hypochondria first?
