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patils
72 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2010 : 15:46:59
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Sarno Theory is sheer nonsense. I too have struggled for almost one year and then suddenely came across Hilliby's post and that alerted me and then I changed my approach and finally succeeded.
Please believe me these symptoms can be 100 % stopped and that too instantly when you realise that continuid negative and fearful thinking is keeping these symptoms with you.
People are talking about relapses but not a single relapse is possible if you have strong will.
Any form of fixation will cause stress. You cannot relax when body is ready to fight and symptomes will continue. So do not try to fix these symptoms. By trying to fix we become tensed.
People who are in pain are only because they are tensed. They are not relaxing when they are supposed to relax and this continuid tensing will keep pain with them.
I have read and read Hilliby's all posts till my each body cell absorbed what he is saying and then I saw progress.
Apart from Hilliby's posts these two books have helped me a lot :
1) Mental Health ... through Will training and
2) Hope and help for your nerves.
Free copy of first book is available on net.
http://www.archive.org/details/mentalhealththro002066mbp
This is superb book by Abraham Low and it will give you honest picture of your symptoms. Sarno books are just baby books in front of this book.
Sachin |
Edited by - patils on 03/19/2010 16:13:20 |
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marsha
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2010 : 18:32:53
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Good for you. I am glad you are better.
Be careful , different things work for different people.
Sarno's theory has worked for me along with therapy and taking advice from Monty .
Don't talk about my will. You don't even know me and the others on this board.
How long have you been at this to make you such an expert?
Marsha
Pain free for 7 years . Suffered a relapse...much improved now.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 10:04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by patils
Sarno Theory is sheer nonsense.
If that's how you really feel, then I do not know why you continue to visit this forum.
It is very common for people to give up on TMS when they cannot find relief. But rather than accept that maybe Dr. Sarno's methods are not the best fit for them, they dismiss the theory and come back to the forum and post disparaging remarks. It is unfortuntate that they feel the need to do this.
Dr. Sarno's methods do not work for 90% of the population. Lasting relief requires belief, commitment, hard work, and a long-term view. Many people simply cannot accept the concept that the mind can cause symptoms. Many people cannot comprehend the finer points of the theory such as the importance of conditioning. Many people cannot take a long-term view and get frustrated when relief does not come quickly. Many people cannot commit to doing the work required.
Dr. Sarno's methods do work for many, including myself, many members of this forum, and thousands of his patients. If it doesn't work or you, then move on and stop visiting this forum. But to call it "nonsense" is short-sighted and frankly, childish. |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 12:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by patils
Sarno Theory is sheer nonsense.
Good Luck!
Just as some people will find it necessary to value and hold dear an illness, disorder or syndrome so to will they anything that they believe explains it in a way they find palatable.
I think your opening salvo will fall upon deaf ears.
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 08:49:58
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I hate to say this....but to some degree I agree with Patils. I did however use Sarno's theory to get rid of my 12 years of back pain. My recovery from anxiety has been a different story.
With all due respect to Dave, I actually believe that the reason 90% dont' recover from Sarno's theory is because there is a missing piece. I too, like Hillbilly, have discovered that the symptoms really are a result of anxiety - definitely psychsomatic as Sarno insists but I don't think the diversion theory is correct. I think these are all plain old symptoms of anxiety.
I definitely feel indebted to sarno for putting me on the right path - pulling me away from all physical focus and solutions and focusing on the real problem - which lies in my thinking. HOwever, I vehemently disagree that delving into one's past with a therapist will absolutely not cure you of anxiety - it will actually make you worse as it creates more and more tension in the mind and body - thereby producing more and more adrenalin and giving you more anxiety symptoms. The answer lies in relaxing and letting the feelings, pain and thoughts come - just wash over you and go about your day.
I am convinvced of this becuase finally my anxiety is going away after not having successs with Sarno's theory or therapists.
Hillbilly has helped me tremendously and I feel so grateful to him for his posts. I absolutely know that the real cause of all these physical symptoms is 100% good old fashioned anxiety - it comes from years of programmed thinking and memory and habit will perpetuate it. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 09:31:06
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I appreciate and agree that anxiety plays a key role in TMS symptoms.
My issue is with those who feel this is contradictory to Dr. Sarno's theory and treatment.
IMO there is no fundamental difference between Dr. Sarno's treatment suggestions and dealing with "just plain anxiety" symptoms.
Whether or not you agree in the "distraction" part of Dr. Sarno's theory does not change the treatment guidelines. A key goal is to accept the symptoms and "float through it" as I believe Dr. Weekes puts it.
What irks me most is those who dismiss Dr. Sarno yet do not realize that what they are saying is 100% consistent with his treatment guidelines.
In any case, anyone is free to believe whatever they want, and I give plenty of leeway for people to present their own opinions, despite this being a TMS forum. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 10:19:13
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I agree Dave - the two theories of Claire Weeks and Sarno are very closely related and work very nicely together.
As you know, Sarno cured my back pain and I am eternally grateful. I just wasn't getting anywhere with his suggestions for the anxiety problem. His solution was to go to a therapist - one that is insight based. I have found success (am not fully there yet but made amazing progress) with a cognitive behavioural approach from Claire Weeks.
I wish, as Hillbilly did, that I could find someone to guide me through the Claire Weeks approach. It would be so much easier than doing it yourself. It is very very hard to ignore the persistent worrying thoughts and not to get sucked into them.
The two approaches do differ though in the "cause" of the symptoms. Weeks says that all the worrying about the physical symptoms is causing more and more adrenalin to be produced by the body and so the symptoms get worse and worse.
Sarno says it is due to repressed rage and the unconscious trying to distract us from that by creating symptoms. These two causes really are quite different.
I am not sure what to think except that the solution of ignoring the symptoms certainly works.
I do really think that Sarno is not right in his approach to Anxiety. I think people spend years with his therapists and I am not sure that there anxiety reduces for a very long time.
Claire week's seems to be much faster - approximately a few months for most.....just by buying her book and listening to a few tapes frequently.
Who knows...in the end, of course, you have to do what works for you.
Both doctors have made ground breaking progress in these conditions and I am so happy that I found them |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 11:43:03
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The problem with Patils shooting down Dr Sarno's theory is not so much a matter if he is right or not . The problem is that him saying it is sheer nonsense undermines the chances for recovery for the ones who either are new to the TMS theory or are still struggling with it . What right does he have to tell someone else what to do?
Promoting only what works for him is fine but being disrespectful of someone's work is not. Especially if this work and the ensuing theory represents a chance for a cure to someone who's in pain and trying to make it work after spending time and sometimes a lot money on it. He shouldn't be saying things like that when it is clear that even a single word can make a lot of difference when dealing with psychosomatic illnesses.
If he doesn't understand that then yes he should be asked to leave this forum until he does and apologizes for his comment that may be counterproductive to others efforts. This is a matter of respect. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 11:55:25
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As I have stated before, I prefer to look at Dr. Sarno's theory as a metaphor. Personally, I believe we cannot understand the true cause of TMS. There are many details of how the brain works that are far beyond our current research and comprehension. Of course, humans do not want to believe this, because it is against our nature.
I believe there is value in psychoanalysis, even if it is not necessarily a "cure" for anxiety. The habits we have developed, to create a state of tension in our bodies and in our mind, stem from our experiences. It cannot hurt to kick around some of the dirt we've been collecting over all these years, to learn about ourselves, and to face issues that we may have been avoiding, possibly for a very long time.
The negative emotions we do not allow ourselves to face get "pushed down" into our bodies. Do TMS symptoms serve to distract us from those repressed emotion? Or maybe they are an alternative expression of those emotions? Or maybe they serve some other purpose altogether that we cannot comprehend?
Personally I don't think it matters. Even if one wants to dismiss the whole concept of repressed emotions, it does not really matter. What matters most is breaking the bad habits we have developed. What is most important is to get to a point where the symptoms do not control you. To where you can live with them. To where you no longer fear them. To where you can even learn from them. To think about them in a totally different way, and change our reaction to them. This takes hard work, and time. The goal is the same whether you follow Dr. Sarno's treatment, or some other method. As long as one believes the mind is powerful enough to induce physical symtpoms such as back pain, and mental symptoms such as anxiety, then half the battle is won.
As for the negative comments on this thread, I hope that people can see through the immature impulses of a person who clearly has not had the results he expected, and take it with the grain of salt it deserves. |
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Capn Spanky
112 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 11:59:58
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quote:
Originally posted by patils
Sarno Theory is sheer nonsense.
This statement is sheer nonsense and an insult to those of us who got our health and lives back thanks to Dr. Sarno.
No one I have ever heard has articulated as clearly as Dr. Sarno that my pain was generated by the psychological and not the physical. That was the key for me. Everything else is built on that platform.
Does Dr. Sarno have everything 100% right? Probably not. But there is plenty he does have right. Best not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
As far as Hillbilly and the anxiety thing goes, I think there may be something worthwhile there. Different people may need different approaches. But it would all be worthless to me, if I hadn't read and applied Dr. Sarno's theories first. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 14:50:26
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Nicely put Dave...I like that view of Sarno's work.
I absolutely can affirm that I would not have cured my back pain without him...I would have continued on going to one doctor after another.
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 16:04:56
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It is pretty obvious that we could all pick over and argue about the intricacies of Sarno's thesis until the cows come home but from my perspective the true value of Sarno's ideas is that it gives us all another framework in which to consider our illness and symptoms.
I know Hillbilly would be the first to scream and shout that what Sarno puts forward and the idea of psychosomatic illness and emotional conversion is nothing new but it does appear that this concept has taken wings and flown to a wider audience thanks to Sarno and his adherents.
I think that many of us who suffer from pain disorders and/or undiagnosed ailments have often gone from GP to GP in the hope of finding an answer to our questions and all the while this is framed within the confines of the traditional western attitude towards medicine, the body and our culturally received beliefs as to what causes bodily dis-ease.
I think the value of Sarno and the TMS thesis is that it offers a logical and acceptable alternative to the concept of illness and its causality that we have bought into for all our lives. I personally have never felt it necessary to pick over the bones of Sarno's ideas...I understand and accept the concept of somatisation and feel that it it totally valid without the tacked on Freudian angle BUT having said that I can only imagine the joy and the lightbulb moment that must happen when people see that somebody like Sarno is able to offer an explanation for their suffering and ailments without recourse to a physical causality.
To say the theory is nonsense is to dismiss all the value of putting forward a somatisation theory that many of us may be able to use as a tool to heal purely because we feel that one aspect of it is questionable...as somebody previously stated, we must not throw the baby out with the bath water.
I do tend to agree with Hillbilly and do believe that a vast majority of TMS ailments are the end result of a burnt out and fatigued nervous system coupled with a negative preoccupation on our health and symptoms. Whilst this presentation has been noted and explainable for years many of us have never be aware of this and instead have been banging our heads against the constraints of traditional western medicine and mind/body duality philosophy...anyone who offers hope and knowledge that this is not the only explanation deserves our respect and our thanks. |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 08:38:28
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quote:
Originally posted by patils
Sarno Theory is sheer nonsense. I too have struggled for almost one year and then suddenely came across Hilliby's post and that alerted me and then I changed my approach and finally succeeded.
I understand your fustration with Sarno patils, I too became a "Sarno Purist" and my symptoms only intensified. I had a turning point, or "letting go point" after Hillbilly's posts here too though. And I think I became angry with the "Sarno purist" theology after that.
But, It was a combination of Sarno plus the approach you mentioned that got me where I am today. It's kind of like organized religion. People find a great deal of relief in it, a comfort zone where they can congregate with others and worship, and find stress relief and love peace and happiness. But what about those that question it? Look thru the cracks, and search for the ultimate answers? And the more un-fufilled they feel finding the answers, the harder they try, and the more the oppositte effect happens (more uncertainty, more anxiety) because they need that clarity. The more they search, the more unfufilled they become, until the whole thing is hogwash, even though others benefitted.
It was'nt enough for me to "let go". I had a real abnormality, or 12 depending on how the MRI was interpreted, and I needed an MD to say observe that 80% of his patients with debilitating spine pain also exhibited anxiety symptoms as well. And with that decided to treat chronic back and neck pain the same. And for that I participated in the "church of Sarno" so to speak. But when I dwelved deeper into the dogma of it all, and needed definitive ansers, it took me a while to learn that Sarno is human, and I just needed out of him some basic premise to be the catalyst of my recovery. My ultimate path became the Hillbilly route over time and acceptence, but none of it would have been possible if not for that little italian guy in NYC who discovered my mental penicillin. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 12:17:53
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Skizzik,
I no longer have back pain because of Sarno....however the approach didn't work for anxiety. I am finally beginning to make headway using Claire Week's work.
What suggestions have you followed from Hillbilly? |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 16:26:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sborthwick
What suggestions have you followed from Hillbilly?
well....I was wrapped up in fixing my "repressed rage" in order to relieve the pain, and then I could get on with my life. Like anything, when you set a goal in life thats great, but when you set a goal that life can't move on unless that goal is met, you will build up resistence and ultimately give up.
What I got from him was get on with my life, don't care about the pain (which was drilled into me by Hellny too) and fix/accept the tensions as I go dropping the search for repressed rage. Also very Monte-ish.
When dealing with anxiety I think about the impression of Joy Behar on Saturday night live, where the guy that plays her says "so what" a lot. It's a very funny impression. When I got a case of anxiety, I step back and kind of ask myself whats bothering me, and of course it's the what if's. What if I lose my job? What if something bad happens. Then I usually answer in that imitating voice "so what". Then I die, or then I'll be unemployed, who cares? I'll just get a different job, and downsize, and declare bankruptcy, and etc, just keep answering myself till I get bored and start thinking of something else. And I think most of it can be traced back to what others think of me. And I get relief, and find myself letting go.
But, in that process, if I find myself very tense, and go thru the motions of letting go and the anxiety fades, I usually get bummed out for a while, a bit depressed. I've figured out not to fight that off, and just feel depressed. Then later or the next day I feel better.
heres Fred Armison as Joy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPXcQixLF8Q |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 17:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by skizzik
well....I was wrapped up in fixing my "repressed rage" in order to relieve the pain...
Seems this is a common trap people fall into. Even if we wanted to, we cannot know what is the "repressed rage" because by definition it cannot be felt.
We need to accept there is nothing to "fix" and that repressing emotion is normal and part of being human.
Searching for the possible ingredients of the rage is more of a reconditioning exercise than anything else. If, along the way we find some things we have been burying and not facing up to, then it is a bonus. However, it is the attempt to find these emotions that is important -- not actually finding them.
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patils
72 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 10:44:02
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Hi All,
I really commented what my heart told me and I Know, it has hurted feeling of many including Dave. I feel sorry here since it is Dave's forum and here are really good people including Dave and give concerning replies. May all be blessed.
But I am seeing here people are struggling for almost two years and no progress comes into picture then really something is besically wrong with approach. You may journal whole lifespan but nothing will happen.
These issues of muscle pains are already studied and documented so many decades ago and nothing new and I was shocked when I read all this in Abraham Low's book. The explanation and examples and patient cases given are so superb. Although book is long one ( almost 400 pages )but gives correct explanation about what is going on.
Our will says Yes or No. You can read chapter related to Will in the book.
If you are stuck. Please get out of this forum. ( say for month ) Try to calm your nervous system. ( meditation is great help here )( calming nervous system may take month/ months ) understand how our mind is acting and how our will is responsible for all this pain. When you have convencied just stand in front of pain. It will run away.
Live like healthy person. You are not going to die by this pain. Be assured about this.
I have carried Hilliby's post in my Car, in my Pocket, saved in outlook in draft mail and read and read till I really faced pain.It just left me. Never to return. Pain will only return, if my will says 'yes' to Danger.
Sachin
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Edited by - patils on 03/24/2010 11:01:53 |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 11:15:20
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Sachin,
Do you think it is good to read Abraham Low's book?
I no longer have any pain - just battling the anxiety with Claire Week's book. She is wonderful and her theory does work.
Her instructions are to let the worrying thoughts come and float through them. Our thoughts are creating the tension so the nervous system continues to be out of whack and sensitized. The only way to get the nervous system to settle down and the brain chemistry to go back to normal is to stop being caught up in fear of the symptoms. (very similar to Sarno's cure). I found this much easier to do with the pain than the fearful thoughts. The thoughts are very seductive and it is easy to get sucked in and spiral downwards, making the nervous system more and more sensitive. Her theory is supposed to work for depression too. It would certainly put the pschiatrists out of business and the pharmaceutical companies too!
I just wanted to know if Low's book was helpful and along Claire Week's approach. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 20:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by patils
But I am seeing here people are struggling for almost two years and no progress comes into picture then really something is besically wrong with approach. You may journal whole lifespan but nothing will happen.
...
If you are stuck. Please get out of this forum. ( say for month ) Try to calm your nervous system. ( meditation is great help here )
Live like healthy person. You are not going to die by this pain. Be assured about this.
This much I agree with. I think what I call "distraction syndrome" is very real, but if it's what you have, once you realize it, I believe it will be fairly obvious. It's no great mystery when you can track the pain appearing and moving quickly around at very specific thoughts or emotions.
On the other hand I personally *don't* think that everyone on this board has distraction syndrome. And it also bothers me to see them staying on forever. After watching the board for a couple of years now I'd say check it out, thoroughly. If you don't recognize it in yourself in a few weeks, move on. If you don't see improvement, consider getting additional help or looking elsewhere.
It worked for me, but that doesn't mean it'll work for you. But I ask that you guys also extend the same courtesy. What works for, and is true for you, isn't for everyone else. |
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johnnybill45
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 14:26:03
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| If only 90% respond to Sarno's ideas (and I'm wondering where that figure comes from), then that's no better than a placebo. I don't ever remember reading this 90% figure in any of Sarno's books. Where did this come from? |
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patils
72 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 10:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sborthwick
I just wanted to know if Low's book was helpful and along Claire Week's approach.
Yes.
Low's books are at much deeper level.
Free copy of book is available on net.
http://www.archive.org/details/mentalhealththro002066mbp
Read carefully and absorb what he is saying.
I will not be surprised,if you said , after reading book that your earlier cured back pain was only placebo.
Regarding long term peace from anxiety, We have to keep in mind that our personality is responsible for such disease and whole foundation is required to be strengthened in proper direction. This foundation means our thinking habits, prejudices , mental tendencies, character etc etc. So spiritual approach is the only proper solution.
There are so many NGO's who are helping humanity by their spiritual teaching and practises and that too at free of cost.
If you are interested, I can mail you such organisations. you can join in your country and keep in mind that it will take time to change old routed habits and tendencies.
Also you can search about recovery meetings and see below website helps.
www.lowselfhelpsystems.org
I will not be frequest visitor here but keep mailing.
Thanks,
sachin
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Edited by - patils on 03/26/2010 10:56:01 |
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Follow......Hillbilly.
