| Author |
 Topic  |
|
mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2010 : 18:44:45
|
Things have been bad for me. My back pain has now extended into hip pain and knee pain and I have also got a bunion. This is all on the same side- the left. I can't sit too long nor can i walk but ism still not giving up. I'm in bangkok at the moment & trying to walk around as much as I can but it's hard work. The pain is constant.
Yesterday i felt a little pain in my right toe area and this morning I see a slight bump/redness - the beginnings of a bunion on my other foot.
I am mortified & very very frightened. My body seems to be falling apart & I can't seem to do anything about it.
If it is Tms how can it be manifesting itself like this so physically so fast?
I am not on any drugs right now but I am doing some physical workout for my bone density.
I a seeing a spine specialist today to rule out anything sinister but now I don't know what to do & where to go from here.
My whole left side is screwed & now my right side is going too.
Has anyone had a similar experience?
Any thoughts would help me a lot right now. I feel so alone .
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
Edited by - mala on 02/01/2010 04:35:11 |
|
|
catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 19:04:01
|
Sorry to hear this Mala
Anyway do not panic and give in to fear or it will likely get worse.
The first thing is that a bunion may be one thing and your pain in your leg and hip an other thing. This is very possible with TMS.
Once you have ruled out anything that could be a hazard to your life asap try to decide how you are going to handle this situation.
A decision making attitude is always better than a victim like attitude that will re-enforce the symptoms.
Consider the pros an cons on a list and find the options available to you at this time.
Remember you're a pretty much a fearless person so you 'll beat this thing .
|
 |
|
|
mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 20:03:39
|
Hi catspine, thx for such a quick response. I will go to the doctor & take it from there like you suggested.
It's just that I know the doc will stress a lot on what is going on physically whereas tms means thinking psychological. therein liesthe conflict.
After so many years of trying the tms approach I think I have only gotten worse which is frightening coz there was always this hope.
Anyway I will keep you all posted.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 21:01:55
|
I know when I was at my lowest, I got really bad hip pain and knee pain as well. If I remember, what kept me going was that the back pain would go from a 9 to a 2-3 when the hip and knee pain came on.
If they were real, then this could not happen. I hope you get some clues, and signs that you'll be ok.
Even now, the pain can still get bad on me (spine, not hip or knee anymore) and I get to the point where I give in to medical options. I find that when I keep resisting going back to medical options it only makes it worse. Ironically, when I think about medical options, almost naturally the TMS counter argument thoughts come back in with reinforcements and I get relief. At some point I forget I was even surfing for solutions. When I get a chance, I'll write more on that later. But you need a quick response.
Mala, please relax, don't work so hard to convince yourself it's tms. Go see the docs. Put your trust in them. Allow them to poke, prod and test. Just give them your symptoms and don't lead them anywhere, ie: "is it this doc?" "is it that?" Let them tell you if you have a red flag, they know what they're looking for. If they find nothing, they will find agreeing with any diagnosis you have of yourself a good way to get you out of the office and you'll be convinced that they told you have such and such.
Don't feel alone, we're thinking of you, your'e gonna be fine.
|
|
|
|
catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 00:05:42
|
That's right Mala , it is hope that keep everything going in this world, without hope there is no future possible because the future is hard to see and hope makes that more tolerable.
Dr Sarno says that if you don't do the homework to eliminate the fear can can eventually return so this is an important part, don't forget though that the fear might have been unconscious but always there. chances are if you work on this the pain may go away.
So let the doctors reassure you that there is nothing going on that they can tell ( it will boost your belief in TMS ) and get on the fear and get it out of the picture the sooner the better . Nobody can do that for you Mala but as Skizzik said we 'll be there to encourage you.
You're not alone. |
|
|
|
catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 01:05:31
|
Hi Mala
In your other post you wrote:
quote: So why doesn't everyone have pain?
I posted that yesterday in your older topic so I thought I would update it and post it here too in case you never read it .
Although not everybody has enormous pain an enormous amount of people have pain: (they can have a broken heart pain + back pain nose pain stomach pain knee pain joint pains head pain etc etc... and a lot of them are misdiagnosed everyday (for example Remember Dr Sarno talking about an epidemic of back pain).
Maybe that's because until recently the medical profession was not trained to work with it when it is TMS and was reluctant to considering the fact that psychological factors influence our health far beyond what they thought was possible. Consequently all this people are simply redirected to the MDs or specialists for treatments they may not really need but that are though to be necessary.
Also in our society emotions are not really welcome to be on display and end up likely to be looked down on or repressed, (consider the widely use phrase "Oh! He/she was very emotional about it!"). If that doesn't have a negative co-notation than what does? You can only have certain emotions if you're a super hero but if otherwise then tough luck!
What is wrong with emotions I'd like to ask?
Generally speaking try to tell someone that your TMS condition is psychosomatic instead of purely physical and watch their response. You can see the questions on their faces already and may end up very quickly in a category where you surely don't belong. Maybe they don't know what to do with emotions. Maybe it is too complicated.
|
|
|
|
mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 17:45:07
|
Skizzik & catspine. Thank you both so much for yr replies. I went to the doctor today & will be having some diagnostics 2morrow. Will post when i have more info.
I know that I have much much to be grateful for. I don't have to work, I've got a wonderful husband and a family that loves me, friends & kind people like you on this forum.
Once I get my results I will seriously think about whether doing Dr Schubiner's program is an option or maybe even go to see him who knows.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
Edited by - mala on 01/25/2010 17:45:55 |
|
|
|
altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 21:35:26
|
| I had most of my pain on the right side, hip, back, neck, and also a painful bunion. These all eventually went away. I still have a bunion, but it doesn't hurt. I still sometimes get hip pain, I think due to some resentments I still hold on to. I wish that you turn the corner soon, and feel better. |
|
|
|
sue
7 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 10:19:19
|
To Skizzik and Catspine I appreciate that you told Mala to get a physical to rule out any specific cause of her pain. I don't think it is mentioned enough on this site that sometimes, the abnormality does actually correlate with the symptoms of pain and numbness, and may truly be helped by trying to "fix" the abnormality. For example, if one has a disc herniation at L5-S1 and the pain/numbness is runs down Behind the leg and under the foot, this is a direct correlation. The converse is true also. For example, if the S1 is involved and the person is affected in the front of the leg, then the abnormality would NOt correlate, thus being TMS.
Would love to hear responses to this. I have just discovered Sarno and was upset to learn that my abnormality does correlate to my symptoms. I still need to learn this method for my anxiety tms.
Thank you,
Sue |
|
|
|
marsha
252 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 10:36:19
|
Hi Sue,
Dr. Sarno tells his patients to first see a doctor to rule out any pathological illnesses. For example an infection,cyst or tumor. Bulging disks are not pathological...Unless you have a pathological illness you can pretty much figure the pain is TMS.
You must accept that your pain is psychosomatic..for Sarno's philosophy of TMS to work. Take your focus off the physical.
Read some of his earlier books and watch his video on the web.
Marsha |
Edited by - marsha on 01/28/2010 10:39:51 |
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 12:06:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by sue
To Skizzik and Catspine I appreciate that you told Mala to get a physical to rule out any specific cause of her pain. I don't think it is mentioned enough on this site that sometimes, the abnormality does actually correlate with the symptoms of pain and numbness, and may truly be helped by trying to "fix" the abnormality. For example, if one has a disc herniation at L5-S1 and the pain/numbness is runs down Behind the leg and under the foot, this is a direct correlation. The converse is true also. For example, if the S1 is involved and the person is affected in the front of the leg, then the abnormality would NOt correlate, thus being TMS.
Would love to hear responses to this. I have just discovered Sarno and was upset to learn that my abnormality does correlate to my symptoms. I still need to learn this method for my anxiety tms.
Thank you,
Sue
According to pure Sarno theory, he states that the mind is aware of all the abnormalities in our body even though we ar'nt conciously aware of it. And in having those abnormalities the mind will utilize them as the ultimate distractions.
The case where there is a pathological match that makes sense is the best case scenario for distraction theory.
Hopefully Hellny will chime in, I can't possibly explain it like he can putting the distraction theory to the side. |
|
|
|
mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 18:48:43
|
Hi all I have just changed the topic a bit rather than starting a new one.
Had 2 Mri's done one for spine (ortho) & one for abdomen(gyne) and 9 xrays of back, hip, knees.
Saw the ortho and he said I have facet joint arthritis & degenerative disc at 2 levels L4/L5 & L5/S1. I also have spondylolythesis which means that the last disc has slipped forward by 2mm. The slip is what is causing the pain in the low back. The curve in my lower back is very arched and he says its the spondy which is causing it. He said he did not want to operate but if it slips further he may have no choice. SI joints are Ok and so is the hip.
Now to the knees. degenerative changes in both but more in the left. that means the cartilage is wearing thin. This explains why the left knee is so sore.
I will see knee doc & gyne tomorrow & post again Pain levels are really bad.
I know that I am focusing on the physical but at this stage don't know what to do. I know that all the things mentioned have been ruled out by sarno as causing pain. Part of me wants to put on my high heels & walk around for miles despite the pain & tell my brain that I don't believe there is anything wrong but part of me is so scared that i may make it worse. I think that my pain has become worse recently because I have been throwing caution to the wind.
i want to do schubiner's course but i need to be reassured by a TMS doctor that it is OK for me to do so.
Please please any insights, comments, views would be appreciated.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
|
|
|
HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 18:56:21
|
The relationship between disc bulges and herniations with pain is so poor in the literature there is a whole lot of reason to question the physical diagnosis of degenerative disk disease for "radiculopathy."
I had pain that had a l5/s1 distribution. I had a disk "bulge" there. Like most 30+ year olds did (this was 10 years ago). That was not the ultimate cause of the pain.
The doctors have "correlated" my mothers pain to a spinal abnormality on 2 separate occasions and so far have failed miserably in resolving this issue.
Yes yes, I know all about the spine ...the l5/S1 dermatomes. I memorized them all in my 30s. The relationships between the nerve roots and the pattern of pain in the legs. Even further, the whole deal about central herniations actually impinging more on the central spinal nerves before they bifurcate at the next level down..therefore sometimes an l4/5 central herniation is suppose to cause pain in an unexpected l5/s1 distribiution because it is actually compressing the l5/s1 nerve roots that are passing through l4/5 on their way down. In contrast, lateral herniations will be more likely to cause pain at the affected level.
And of course the latest theories on how whats actually happen in the cytokines and related irritants in the nucleus pulpolsus that actually inflame the nerve roots. More justification for operating even before they herniate outright. Oh wait that was my 1st and second operation.
Of course we also learn of the ever-present facet arthritis and facet hypertrophy, which can cause irritations of the facet nerve which can give symptoms very much like a pinched nerve (including some radiating pain) at the same level as the nerve roots they are close to. Perhaps a facet rhizotomy is in order.
And let us never forget the alleged piriformis syndrom, which can also produce pain in a l5/s1 distribution or l4/5 (depending on which nerves your piriformis compresses).
And yet all too often these 'highly circumscribed" pain patterns that occur in lock-step dermatomal patterns are only the latest in a string of unrelated pain related ailments. So we have the surgery...maybe it gets fixed and more often (not). Only to be replace by another outrageous pain syndrome. And all too often there will be some abnormality in the spinal canal that is the cause of the pain (again). As you get older, there will be plentry of abnormalities at the site of the nerves in involved. Even in healthy people.
It just gets to be nonsense after a while. You finally stop hoping the orthopedics will solve your problem with some surgical magic and start listening to the evidence that tended to suggest that spinal disks were rarely the cause of pain...such as teh well documents fact that thousands upon thousands of people with herniated disks have absolutely no back or leg pain at all. Many people with considerable central canal stenosis do not have pain either. You;d heard of this in the past but didnt want to believe it..because then that would threaten your hope to get better because you believed "if we know the cause, the doctors will fix me." More terrifying was the idea that it was NOT your spine. To the naive, that is like a death sentence (read: NOW what??)
Here's a thought: what IF (and lets just think IF) we belonged to a groups of people with excessively tension and worry-prone personalities/temperaments. What if we tend to hold all sorts of involuntary, autonomic driven tension in our bodies because of our innate predisposition to fear and be afraid and guard ourselevs. What if this starts causing constriction of blood, oxygen and nutrients to nerves and/or tissues in our bodies. So our nerves are always at the endge. Autonomic overload.
So we turn 30, or 40 or whatever. Or we have an injury. Whatever. A mild invertebral disk herniation, which oridinarily doesnt cause pain in a normal person, beccomes excrutiating to us. Primarily because, say, so many of our nerves and tissues are already near threshold. Already compressed by chornically tense muscles, already inflamed because they dont get the oxygen they need, already hair-trigger because they are bombarded by alarm signals. And extra modest compression or restriction from a moderate bit of diplacement in the spinal canal is the last straw. OUr nerves cross threshold that oridinary people's nerves would not. We feel horrible pain acutely.
Yes, maybe it relates - in a proximal way -- to the the bulging disk in your back. But unless you are going stop time -- you are not going to stop the fact that as you get older, more disks will bulge and some will herniate, And you will get central canal stenosis. And you will get arthritis. And. And. And.
And yet why are you so debilitated when we look at other people with MRIS with equal (normal) degeneration and they dont have anyhing like your pain? Why some people hurt their back and are better in a few days and we linger in agaony for years?
How about the notion that we have nerves throughout or body that barely have any "tolerance" left to handle "normal" aging because they are already so starved of oxygen, or blood flow, or are constantly bombarded with fight or flight adrenaline and their are always a hair trigger away from an action potential?
In other words, why is our entire pain system on such a hair trigger form the normal sorts of things that happnen in our bodies while others are not?
It is only the theory of TMS and psychosomatic pain that has ever provided a sensible answer (and solution, in my case) after years of chasing disk bulge after disk bulge, all with the "classic dermatomal signs"
Only early in my "pain life" was I so enraptured and enthralled by orthopedic medicine. Ten years later and I see it for the nonsense that much of it is. I stopped marveling at the doctors long ago.
Sure, check with your doctor. But use your head. Look at your history. |
Edited by - HellNY on 01/28/2010 19:08:29 |
|
|
|
mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 20:31:16
|
Thx HellNY for such a quick response. I hear & understand a lot of what you are saying & believe me surgery is a very frightening spectre one which I don't ever want to face. At the moment though I don't have a life so to speak. Every waking moment is spent in agony, nights are spent sleeping all tensed up. i hate what I'm doing to my husband who is actually being very good about it all. I can't plan anything. I don't see a future.
So can I ask you directly what you think I should do ?
BTW do you have a post on the success stories forum?
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
Edited by - mala on 01/28/2010 20:32:36 |
|
|
|
catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 22:03:53
|
Mala
I never wore high heels so I couldn't tell you for or against it but I can tell you that a period of transition is always difficult and which ever solution you choose you'll need time to solve the problem so first thing first. Understanding comes with time. Make sure you have the support of your loved ones and then take the time you need to make a decision that YOU approve of and will be able to live with on the long term. If you're challenged about it then explain why you want it that way as long as it is legitimate you will have all the strength you need to stand for it.
Your ortho told you he doesn't want to operate yet, well here is your luck! it's much better than finding out you didn't need it after it's all done and paid for.
Surgery IS invasive what ever they want to call it doesn't change that and there is always a risk so take advantage of your good luck and try an alternative method that can not hurt you first, all it takes is a bit of patience and reading and nobody is going to do it for you. If that doesn't give any satisfaction after a few months you will just be exactly where you are now and you'll still have the other option. The other way around is not as potentially trouble free.
Ultimately your decision may be either subjective or objective or have a bit of both in it but it should be your decision. This is key to your healing.
All you need to know is how you want to heal and if you're ready to do what it takes from there thing will fall into place more smoothly.
|
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 06:14:39
|
wow Hell, that was really good! I'll be rereading that one over and over for a bit.
|
|
|
|
altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 10:00:37
|
| The degenerative changes you mentioned sound about normal for anyone in my vintage - 50+. The doc showing them to you can cause them to hurt. I keep thinking that you have a huge anger issued buried, perhaps at your parents. The bigger the rage, the bigger the distraction, the more intense the pain syndrome. I found out that I had anger issues with my mother for neglecting my siblings and I, and my father for abandoning us. I found out later that my mom was following the Science of Mind, and didn't believe in doctors. That's ok, but it didn't work for toddlers with serious illneses. Are you avoiding facing something that you are truly enraged about? Your posts are mainly about the physical, obviously because you are in such pain, your posts have not referred to the root cause, past anger, grief, heartache. Are you a "people pleaser" or "perfectionist"? I am both. Keep digging. |
|
|
|
HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
|
|
mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 05:02:47
|
Thank you all for being so patient, reading my posts and for commenting.
I have read them all, just don't know how to respond & what to say & what to think. I am just so overwhelmed by what is going on with me. i can't sit too long, walking is painful on the knees & I am soooooo depressed. I keep seeing my life as over. No more traveling, no more plans, can't think what i am going to do 2morrow or what i am going to be able to do. I'm sorry that i am so focusing on the physical at the moment but please please let me wallow in self pity right now. i have no strength, no energy to do anything else.
I am still in bangkok and got more results from the ob/gyn 2day. I had an MRI of the abdomen becoz a 6 cm ovarian cyst was detected when i was last in hospital for my colon CT scan 2 months ago.
I had a myomectomy (surgery to remove 7 fibroids) 10 years ago. Instead of taking out the whole uterus, i opted to have the fibroids cut from the womb. The largest was 11cm. Fast forward to now & there is this huge ovarian cyst and a few more fibroids again. This wasn't supposed to happen coz I'm menopausal so no estrogen should mean no cysts or fibroids. My luck!!
Doctor recommends to have the cyst removed for pathology. He also says that the uterus is enlarged and retroverted which means it's tilted backwards. I asked if it was possible that this was causing more than usual back pain and he said possibly but can't say definitely. the ligaments attaching the uterus to the back could be inflammed. Since I am menopausal he suggested that i might want to have a hysterectomy.
i have been researching and looking for more info on hysterectomies.
I am disturbed by some of the side effects mentioned one of them being back pain can you believe.
So here i am utterly confused, in pain, depressed & yes wallowing in self pity.
Thank you all for reading this. Sorry to be such a baby.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 07:03:25
|
I hate TMS.
I hate it. I wish all pain was an indicator something was medically wrong and it could be diagnosed and fixed appropriately.
I hate the grey area of not knowing, the "get it checked out just in case" the resultant depression. The hopelessness, the desperation.
Just plain old hate it.
|
|
|
|
guej
115 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 09:18:05
|
I'm with Skizzik, although Dr. Sarno would STRONGLY disagree and say we were all lucky that nothing was seriously wrong with us. I remember crying after every doctor's appointment last year when all the test results would come back fine, and no one could explain why I was still in pain. If they couldn't find what was wrong, then I couldn't fix it, and the pain went on. You know you've hit rock bottom when you start to envy people who get treatable cancer, go through the lousy chemo, and then it's over and they resume their lives. I know I don't really envy them, but that's how warped your perspective gets when you're in constant pain.
Mala, you've got a lot of weird things going on. Personally, I'd rule out physical maladies. All the worrying about what it could be, will keep you from treating it like TMS. I know I had to go through that physical "quest" before I was open to a psychological cause. Now I don't spend any time chasing physical symptoms. I still spend too much time focused on the pain itself (but that's a whole different post...). Hang in there. When I worried and stressed and cried the most over the physical symptoms, that was when they really took off out of control. Easier said than done, but calming down mentally will calm your body down a bit too. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Rapid deterioration/ spine results & yet more resu
