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dtes87
19 Posts |
 Posted - 12/18/2009 : 11:32:28
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| Its because of my laptop that Ive been using for multiple hours a day by using the touchpad with my elbows in a horrible position. Now my fingers get numb and I have a radiating pain from my elbow through my forearm. I know how this RSI occured. But how does one know to treat something as TMS or just another injury? Ive had an old RSI with my hands due to laptop use, but I would never expect this to happen. Im bummed, but I wanna work out in the gym and am hoping if I just ignore the pain/numbness, it can dissipate. Thoughts? |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 10:15:25
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my own recommendations (from a 95% recovered RSI sufferer):
1) see a doctor - check it's not the result of something more serious. Have all the relevant nerve conduction tests/MRIs etc.
2) If they conclude that it's RSI or carpel tunnel, then make sure you think very carefully before going ahead with any surgery (i guess it'll depend where you live for this - the UK with the good old National Health Service seems much less likely to refer for surgery for RSI than the medical insurance "someone else is going to pay" American system....)
3) don't "just try and ignore it" - it's unlikely to work....
4) Buy Dr Sarno's book(s), start a bit of personal pschyoanalysis....
5) Read through the wealth of resources both here (the success stories section - mine is "Gibbon's story." And also the TMSwiki section on RSI http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Repetitive+Strain+Injuries+-+RSI )
6) email me if you want any other advice....
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dtes87
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 12:06:49
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| See, but doesnt Sarno give examples of people who have structural problems with no pain? I sort of see a contradiction. Structural problems shouldnt lead to pain, yet one should "see a doctor to rule out structural problems." I thought Sarno didnt believe RSIs really even existed? I had a neck injury that has vastly improved, I dunno if time was all it needed, but I do know that using my laptop and researchig health websites gave me this RSI ironically. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 12:10:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dtes87
...if I just ignore the pain/numbness, it can dissipate. Thoughts?
It's exactly what you have to strive to do.
You are still thinking physical, attributing the pain to computer use and talking about "old RSI ... due to laptop use."
It may take some time but you have to learn to stop attributing the pain to these causes. |
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dtes87
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 12:41:13
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| So Dave, what do you think regarding what I posted about structure/injury vs. TMS? What about happy people who have RSIs? I am in a lot of pain as I type, and my right hand is numb and tingly. Sounds dumb, eh? But Im hoping ignoring it WILL help. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 13:01:10
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I think you might be overthinking this...
Of course one must go to the doctor to rule out any serious disease, illness, or structural problem. But in the latter case, we are talking about serious defects, and not "run of the mill" diagnoses such as herniated disc or anything that ends in "itis".
TMS is a clever process. It will sieze the best opportunity to convince you that there is a real physical problem. If your pain is TMS, your unconscious mind has recognized that you are fearful of RSI, so it gives you those symptoms that you are likely to attribute to computer use.
Rather than think about "is it or is it not TMS" it's better to focus on treatment. That means accepting that the problem is psychological, and not physical; stopping all physical treatments; ignoring the symptoms as best you can; and shifting your thoughts towards psychological issues. |
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dtes87
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 13:37:20
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| One more question, Dave, then i'll let you be....if your boss at work told you to type something for 8 straight hours for a whole month and you felt pain in your wrists, would this be a true RSI or TMS? |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 13:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dtes87
See, but doesnt Sarno give examples of people who have structural problems with no pain? I sort of see a contradiction. Structural problems shouldnt lead to pain, yet one should "see a doctor to rule out structural problems." I thought Sarno didnt believe RSIs really even existed? I had a neck injury that has vastly improved, I dunno if time was all it needed, but I do know that using my laptop and researchig health websites gave me this RSI ironically.
Of course some structural problems do exist - and some can of course cause pain. The question is however whether RSI is a fundamentally structural problem or a fundamentally psychosomatic problem. There could always be (though hopefully not!) a serious reason for your symptoms. This needs to be ruled out, and medical advice at least listened to. Also, I'm just a chap on a web forum, reading a very brief account of your condition, it would be pretty irresponsible to do anything other than recommend that you first seek professional medical help.
I would strongly recommend reading the linked resources to RSI on the TMS wiki - they will answer some of the questions you're asking now....it's not a case of saying that RSI "doesn't exist" - but simply that it does not have a structural cause. That is a very very important distinction. I suffered RSI for 3 years and to a pretty serious degree for 1 1/2 years - no one can possibily tell me the condition isn't "real." The mind and the body are inextricably linked.... |
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dtes87
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 13:47:31
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| THIS is where the contradiction is that I see. So do you listen to doctors or DONT you? Do you stop when you feel pain or DONT you? Why is it that I had no problem with my elbows until i started excessively using a pad on my laptop without a mouse? I do have health phobias, but only because I feel pain from what was already through repetitive strain or injury. |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 14:02:56
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quote:
Originally posted by dtes87
THIS is where the contradiction is that I see. So do you listen to doctors or DONT you? Do you stop when you feel pain or DONT you? Why is it that I had no problem with my elbows until i started excessively using a pad on my laptop without a mouse? I do have health phobias, but only because I feel pain from what was already through repetitive strain or injury.
can i ask that you read the linked material? What you are asking has been covered in a lot of depth before....
briefly:
seek medical advice. It may be something serious. If they conclude that it's RSI and start telling you that you need surgery or psysio or steroid injections or accupuncture then you need to make up your mind about what to do. These treatments won't do long term harm as such, so indeed if you want to go through the full gamult of medical interventions then that's up to you. The truth is that probably none of them will work - the success rates and indeed the medical evidence for their effectiveness is pretty ropey at best. When you're ready to accept that RSI might not have a structural cause, then you are ready to accept TMS and the recommendations for recovery.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 14:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dtes87
THIS is where the contradiction is that I see. So do you listen to doctors or DONT you? Do you stop when you feel pain or DONT you? Why is it that I had no problem with my elbows until i started excessively using a pad on my laptop without a mouse? I do have health phobias, but only because I feel pain from what was already through repetitive strain or injury.
If you read Dr. Sarno, you will understand why the vast majority of doctors will not entertain the TMS diagnosis.
Of course, if you go to a doctor with RSI symptoms, they will do what they are trained to do: diagnose you with tendonitis, send you for physical therapy, recommend changing how you use the computer, prescribe anti-inflammatory drugs, etc.
It is certainly plausible that by changing the way you use your laptop, you strained some muscles or tendons, especially if you are at the computer for many hours straight with no breaks. Of course, it is logical that if you type for 8 hours straight your fingers might hurt!
However, the difference is what comes next. Do you give this pain the power to distract you further? Do you attach a label to it such as RSI? Do you allow yourself to consider it a chronic condition? Do you wear wristbands and use special keyboards? Do you go for physical therapy?
If you strain your muscles, tendons, or nerves through overuse (such as typing for 8 hours straight which is certainly not a good idea) then you must understand that this temporary discomfort will heal completely on its own with proper rest. What you should not do is slap the "RSI sufferer" label on yourself and treat is as some kind of chronic problem.
My advice would be to read Dr. Sarno's book and really try to understand it. Stop focusing on the physical and start thinking psychological. Learn how certain personality traits (e.g. goodism and perfectionism) lead to repressed feelings. The more you harp on the physical nature of "RSI" the further away you are from recovery from TMS. |
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scd1833
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 23:15:45
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I agree with dave, if you go to a physician they will do their best to find a physical explanation for your pain.
Don't do it
go to the success stories page and look at danord's story of recovery from rsi, due to typing at the computer
RSI is TMS |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 05:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by scd1833
I agree with dave, if you go to a physician they will do their best to find a physical explanation for your pain.
Don't do it
go to the success stories page and look at danord's story of recovery from rsi, due to typing at the computer
RSI is TMS
hiya, i hear what you're saying - and from what he has said i think the best thing to do is look at the success stories etc. And indeed, i think that going to a GP will do nothing but prolong the process.....
but.....
I still think it is irresponsible to recommend people do anything other than first see a doctor with their symptoms. They could be caused by something else which needs catching early. In Sarno's books he's always pretty clear that you need to get checked out before starting with his program....
i wonder what other TMS-ers think?
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dtes87
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 11:22:53
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Dammit i probalby dont have TMS, cause im on my laptop literally all day for like the past two months, thats when the elbow pain and hand pain came. Ive been to a GP BEFORE concerning my hands when I was 18, and I know what she is going to say to me. "Rest"
Thats probably the key. But i really want it to be TMS so i can continue typing and not be fearful of permanent damage. Which I guess, is possible cause not everything is TMS. Ive never had a pain in my body in which I didnt have an initial injury or reason to suspect why it was there. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 14:26:43
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quote:
Originally posted by dtes87
Dammit i probalby dont have TMS, cause im on my laptop literally all day for like the past two months, thats when the elbow pain and hand pain came.
I suggest you read the section of Dr. Sarno's book that talks about conditioning. It is perhaps the most important concept in TMS.
In short, if you believe that extended laptop use can cause "injury" then your unconscious mind will oblige by presenting you with exactly the symptoms you expect. The pain is a conditioned response -- a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Of course it is possible to develop aches and pains from using the computer for long stretches without rest. But it is one thing to accept these pains as temporary discomfort, and another to let them graduate into a an "injury" and to fear permanent damage.
Your messages clearly indicate that you do not yet understand or accept the TMS diagnosis. I suggest you continue to read Dr. Sarno's book until it sinks in.
By the way, I have been on my computer for 10-12 hours per day every day for pretty much 25 years. No "RSI" here. |
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dtes87
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 18:53:42
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But i bet you have an ergonomic setup. I use a laptop touchpad with no mouse and im rarely at a desk, but at my bed with my elbows bent, fingers curled, and repettively doing this for 12+ hours for the past 2 months.
Dave, do you agree that RSIs well...dont exist? If I cant accept TMS, fine, but should it affect damage being permanent whether I believe or not? |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 18:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by dtes87
Dammit i probalby dont have TMS, cause im on my laptop literally all day for like the past two months, thats when the elbow pain and hand pain came. Ive been to a GP BEFORE concerning my hands when I was 18, and I know what she is going to say to me. "Rest"
Thats probably the key. But i really want it to be TMS so i can continue typing and not be fearful of permanent damage. Which I guess, is possible cause not everything is TMS. Ive never had a pain in my body in which I didnt have an initial injury or reason to suspect why it was there.
have you read my story? I had an onset of symptoms after probably hammering on a keyboard/using a mouse for upwards of 16 hrs a day for months on end.....I think it's likely that i may have had some sort of initial physical strain - and that this became conditioned and reinforced to become worse and worse - to the extent where it was a chronic pain condition long after the original physical trigger had gone..... |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 19:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by dtes87
But i bet you have an ergonomic setup. I use a laptop touchpad with no mouse and im rarely at a desk, but at my bed with my elbows bent, fingers curled, and repettively doing this for 12+ hours for the past 2 months.
Dave, do you agree that RSIs well...dont exist? If I cant accept TMS, fine, but should it affect damage being permanent whether I believe or not?
my ergonomic setup was non-existent! Pretty much everything they tell you to do (wrist straight, comfortable distance, head positioning etc etc...) was completely wrong. That's why i do think that some physical strain is possible - it's just that when this is perpetuated over many weeks/months that you are probably no longer dealing with a physical condition. I personally believe that if i hadn't read sarno's book and stumbled across this website i'd still have the same level of pain i'd had over the past 3 years. In fact it was steadily getting worse and worse. And now, i haven't used Dragon software for over 2 months - which considering how i had to use it for all computer use for over 1 1/2 years is pretty amazing.... |
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dtes87
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 19:09:08
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| I worked out daily for 3 years. Im 22 years old. In my 3 years, NEVER have my elbows popped and clicked until this new RSI. And as for my old RSI in my wrists, well, to this day, when I rotate them they crack and crunch, unlike a normal persons. God I wish TMS was true...but I just cant. But hey, if theres no structural problem whether I believe or not, then whatever, right? Might as well just push through the agony. |
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scd1833
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 21:09:13
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cracking and crunching of stiff joints is NORMAL!
a flat passive laptop keyboard can't possibly cause pain!
physical position, etc has NOTHING to do with it.
these are learned responses, inaccurate associations that our confused brain makes.
you're just continuing to focus on the physical!
it's simply a way of thinking, it's difficult to make the mental shift..it's like buying into a new religion or something like that, belief systems are culturaly programmed deep into our collective psyches, and constantly reinforced by the media, MD's, friends and neighbors etc.
It takes real courage, insight, and open-mindedness to "get" the TMS theory, or in my case is was pure exhaustion, and desparation. I guess I was "ready" for the information, because in 15+ years of suffering nothing worked or made any sense with my symptoms.
If this dosen't work for you,(you don't believe it will)maybe you need to back off for awhile, try another approach, or just live with the symptoms, and maybe come back to it after your mind has had time to process your experiences and gain some perspective. |
Edited by - scd1833 on 12/22/2009 21:15:20 |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 02:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by dtes87
I worked out daily for 3 years. Im 22 years old. In my 3 years, NEVER have my elbows popped and clicked until this new RSI. And as for my old RSI in my wrists, well, to this day, when I rotate them they crack and crunch, unlike a normal persons. God I wish TMS was true...but I just cant. But hey, if theres no structural problem whether I believe or not, then whatever, right? Might as well just push through the agony.
you know, the most miraculous thing about accepting TMS was that within 1 day of doing it my elbows stopped cracking. When I noticed that i really started to sit up and think there may be something to it. My elbows used to crack horribly, bone shuddering cracks whenever i was sat stationary for a while....and then *magic* gone.
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Just developed tendonitis in both elbows
