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crk
124 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2009 : 08:41:12
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Although my first experience with TMS was a back problem, and although back pain is Sarno's main focus, I think there are TONS of "running injuries" out there that are TMS.
I believe every major running magazine, with the exception of Marathon & Beyond, now has a regular Injuries column. I can't even look at them. I am very susceptible to TMS triggers, thanks to my totally crappy childhood. If I see an article about Runner's Knee, my knee will hurt the very next run and I have to shoot it down before it turns into an episode. I've gotten pretty good at it, but it's truly annoying.
I also frequent many runner's forums and blogs, and the Culture Of Injury is huge. I try to mention TMS to people from time to time, but the hype is so believable to them. Moreover, I believe the "Child Primitive" in us HATES anything strenuous so runners are natural TMS targets.
I am curious about other runners on this forum. Is anyone out there a runner and how has your TMS interfered with running? What kinds of strategies do you use to combat TMS while running? I am interested in using this thread as a sort of support group for TMS runners if anyone is interested.
My main strategies are:
-nip it in the bud if you can. The sooner you see it as TMS, the quicker it goes away. Most of mine can be gone during the same run in which they appear, but when I have an important race coming up it's a little harder. (Insecurity, inferiority complex.)
-Continue all runs as planned.
-Review Sarno's recovery reminders as well as what I call my List of Hurts before going out for my run.
-Think about the "good" foot or knee or whatever, and calmly remind myself that the other one is exactly the same.
-Remind myself that I am perfectly healthy and strong, and the pain will go - it always does!!
-Look other pedestrians in the eye and picture them as my family of origin; focus on my feelings of emotional hurt as I pass them.
-Do not let the pain distract me from psychological issues. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 07:24:30
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CRK.
I agree wholeheartedly with you about running injuries. First off I believe that runners do get legitimate injuries – it is the nature of the beast. What separates us TMSers is that we let a little pain turn into something much bigger than it really is. I find that many runners get twinges or some tendonitis but don’t let it take them over. For me, and I am still trying to be good about this, is to not let something small turn into an injury that lasts 3 months. In my case, I would get a typical “running injury” and it would lasts months and months even after getting and trying all treatments. Other people would have to take off a few weeks, then they are good to go. Not me. They would last way longer than the ordinary course. And then I would get into the mantra of “how come these people are healed so quickly”; “how come they respond to treatment”; “why do people run for years and run tons of mileage never get hurt”.
I also feel that in my case, I put so much pressure on myself to get better and then I get in the mindset of “why me”. So what I have done is really focusing on not letting every pain blow up into something massive, not to get into the “I am going to lose months of running now” thing.
I’d love to read about what other runners have to say about this.
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 08:58:37
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HSB, that's interesting. I can honestly say I have never had a true running injury. I've been at it since 2002, have run 17 marathons, and am currently training at about 55 miles per week. I am 50 years old.
Every pain I have ever felt has turned out to be TMS, with the exception of normal muscle soreness after hard efforts or races. I do not have any reason to think that any pains were true running injuries that went on to become TMS. Right from the start, they just responded too quickly to psychological therapy. And they always arose under the exact same psychological circumstances. That last point is especially strong evidence. My unconscious mind is ridiculously predictable now.
I do believe there are legitimate running injuries, but I think they are rare. And I believe they are always accompanied by other symptoms than pain. (With possible the exception of some stress fractures, which show up on bone scans but can be the same as cracks in the spine that Sarno mentions-- bone abnormalities that are not the cause of pain.) I will talk to my friends who think they are "injured" and ask them things like, "Is there any swelling or redness? (no) Or any other symptom besides pain? (no) Does the pain come and go in illogical ways? (yes) Does it move? (yes) Does it sometimes hurt when you are completely still, and other times not hurt though you are running on it? (yes)" But I cannot go further with most of them. Out of probably ~20 people I've talked to like this, only 2 accepted the information I gave them. |
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Monte
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 09:19:03
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crk,
you are absolutely correct. I would say that 95% of all piriformis and sciatica are tms. And probably 50% of all knee pain is tms.
Understanding tms and then reviewing your pain (injury) history can give you some big insights and eliminate a lot of frustration trying to heal a running injury that is really tms.
Monte Hueftle
http://www.runningpain.com
Monte Hueftle
monte@runningpain.com |
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cfhunter
119 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 19:41:27
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Ahhh some fellow runners. Well...I can certainly sympathize with the TMSrunner and also (presently) suffering with an actual injury. 3 fractures in my right foot legitimized by a bone scan and FINALLY on my 9th x ray (if you know fractures they don't show up until they start to heal...talk about a TMS/ REAL injury conflict for ME!) 3 fractures showed up.
My bone scan was white hot though so that was an obvious marker too. BUT the NON injuries that I attributed to TMS and still do are extensive:
Piriformus syndrome, tendonitis of knee, Mortons neuroma (got it from running so they say...about 3 1/2 years ago...still have it and was running through it when I broke my foot, hip pain, ankle pain etc etc.
The list goes on. My final way of dealing with it before this happened to my foot was to tell myself that it was NOT a serious injury and to just forget it! Literally my knee hurt so bad one day while running a 6 miler at mile 3 I was feeling like I would have to limp back...I yelled at it and it went away like a snap! POOF.
My husband does triathlons and is training for an ironman....every time he has an event he has a huge pain or major ailment(last week he had the half ironman in FL. and it was his hip). The minute his races start the pain disappears.
Amazing.
He NEVER even would listen to my theory of tms until it was the ONLY thing that seemed to help him.
How's that for evidence.
My truest belief about TMS is this: How can SO many people have SO many of the same damn things wrong and be so much alike? that to me is proof alone.
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 08:45:17
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Cfhunter, Neuroma was one of my early TMS running "injuries." I am extremely susceptible to suggestion, probably because my TMS is always looking for a way to pop out. My sister had "neuroma," next thing you know I "had" it. Difference: she had 3 foot surgeries in as many years and still has pain, and I had ...Sarno. I had already been cured of my back pain so I knew what was happening and got the neuroma to leave.
I believe so many of these TMS manifestations in runners come from the fact that we are performance oriented and are always sharing our times, our splits, our workout details, etc. I think the TMS comes when that sharing brings up feelings of inadequacy from childhood or wherever. Self judgment follows and TMS wants to protect us from perceptions of unworthiness. That's my theory. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 12:27:54
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CRK-
don't you think (at least i do in my case) that you are jealous of all those runners who can run miles and miles and race marathon and after marathon w/o ever getting "injured". that is definitely one of my issues. don't you think that these runners do not have the TMS personality of worry, fright, fear, anxiousness, etc.? one thing that i have been working on is that every little pain is NOT going to turn into a 3 month out of running thing. i want to be like those runners who get aches and pains but shrug them off; not a worry in the world. i am getting there. |
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 13:55:32
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Hi HSB, I can't really think of any runner I know like that. They all seem to get "injured" eventually. If I'm slowed down by TMS pain, I have the advantage of knowing it has nothing to do with my sport.
I do have 2 friends who I know got real injuries - you could see it all swollen up and red. They healed. And Deena Kastor broke her foot. But I don't see injuries as inevitable. I believe humans are born to run. (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1117_041117_running_humans_2.html)
Your comment about "shrugging off" tms pain is interesting. I am beginning to change my view of this. I am beginning to think that "not being concerned or intimidated by the pain" is one thing, but ignoring its significance is another. I like to use the occasional triggers I get to ask myself, "what is my unconscious struggling with?"
Are you running now? How is it going? |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 17:41:35
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hi crk-
yes most runners do get injured eventually but i kind of feel that the difference between them and me (TMS'r) is that they don't think it's the end of the world, that it is not going to take weeks/months to get better. they won't try therapy after therapy. i am getting much better in not thinking that every pain is going to take me out for months and have to seek treatments. i still have the fear when something comes up (the fear of being out of running for 3-4 months as in the past). but it is much much less.
yes i am running. i ran my first marathon in 10 years last month. during the 4 months of training i had many "niggles" but nothing blew up. i think i only had to take 1 or 2 days off of running throughout this period. believe me i have tried many many times in these 10 years to run another marathon but never made it through the training without having that "injury" that puts me on the sidelines and sending me running for treatment.
i'm thrilled i trained, started and finished albeit almost an hour slower than 10 years ago!! |
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cfhunter
119 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 18:50:23
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I have been without neuroma pain for as long as 6 months before..then something happens and POOF there it is.
So I refuse to have surgery. My mom has one too and she struggles more than me I believe...
This fracture issue had me in a stir for awhile. "Is this really all it is? Will it REALLY heal??" etc
I finally got with a doctor who walked in...said "Let's get you back on the road!" wihtout even knowing ME he knew I was a runner and he walked in with a positive attitude.
I KNEW he wouldn't feed into my pain cycle BS and he has not disappointed me yet. IN fact..the other day at my "cast off" appt. he left the room (for what I thought was the final time) and he popped back in rather abruptly and said with MUCH conviction "YOU will be fine. You ARE getting better. Have Faith...give yourself the time you need and DON'T worry. "
I walked out of that appt. with confidence. This doctor just really pushed it home for me that what a doctor can SAY can really affect how we react and feel.
The appt. before that he was holding my injured foot and gently squeezed my foot, looked me in the eyes and said "you will heal".
That sealed it for me too...
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 20:36:20
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HSB, I hope this will be helpful and not harmful, but it seems all backwards to me. YOU should be the one knowing the "injury" can go away right away. The runners who don't believe in TMS or haven't heard of it sit back and take their standard 3 weeks off or 6 weeks off and they whine endlessly about the break in running. I am on 4 different running forums and this is what I hear almost every day on all of them. As Sarno points out, even a broken femur will heal in 6 weeks, and be stronger at the break than ever before.
So what you are going through with the "here comes months of pain" is in no way physical! The past does not equal the future. Unlike runners who do not understand tms, you have the option of being free within... well, minutes! You may not have ever had relief that fast, but many have (I have) and you could too.
Keep reading and learning. This kind of freedom *can* be yours. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 06:03:21
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CRK-i still kind of disagree with you. I believe that people with TMS get fixated on their pain and fear. i think in my case it is the fear of having to take time off from running - not just the "normal" 6 weeks but the months and months. TMS is when something doesn't "heal" in the normal amount of time and becomes chronic. that is my biggest fear - that something i have will turn into that chronic stuff. Runners who don't have TMS take off that 6 weeks willingly and KNOW that it won't turn into something chronic. They don't panic and start the fear thing.
Right now i have developed hip and piriformis pain - not sure why or how. Haven't changed a thing. Started 2 Sundays ago. I have NOT stopped running but it is definitely getting worse. I was able to train for the marathon in april and get through the niggles but this one is starting to cause the fear that i speak about. I did run yesterday and it is pretty uncomfortable. I am trying to tell myself that for the past 6 months i have run through EVERYTHING and can do it again this time. I am struggling with this current battle of hip/piriformis/sciatic pain. Any thoughts? Thanks
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 06:54:31
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HSB, I am so sorry you have that pain. I certainly don't mean to negate your views of what is going on with you. I just find that for me, Sarno's descriptions of these kinds of "injuries" ring true - that they are always generated by the mind. I can only speak for myself here, but the more I suspect a physical cause the longer a running pain will last. Is there something in Sarno's books I have missed regarding this?
If a pain has recently started up, most runners will wonder whether they need new shoes or whether they have "pulled" something after a hard workout. I have had so many pain triggers, as I am a recurring TMS victim, that I now instantly ask instead, "What is going on in my mind?" With running pain, it usually is tied to my views of myself as an athlete (not good views), my anxiety over performance, and/or my fears of being outdoors alone (related to childhood trauma). For example, with that last one, it will usually trigger a pain when my runs start in the dark again in the fall. As I learn more about my mental processes I have shorter and shorter episodes and can eliminate triggers fairly quickly. That is my hope for you too. |
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 08:07:16
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HSB, a few additional thoughts in case this helps. I just got back from a short run and I thought about you a lot while running. I remembered a couple of things that I will mention in hopes that it will be helpful.
First, I remembered the opening paragraph of Sarno's Healing Back Pain. I don't know if that's the Sarno book you have, but in my opinion it is the best one (though they are all helpful). It goes way beyond just back pain. Here is the way the book begins:
"I have never seen a patient with pain in the neck, shoulders, back or buttocks who didn't believe that the pain was due to an injury, a "hurt" brought on by some physical activity. "I hurt myself while running (playing basketball, tennis, bowling)." ... ... But this pervasive concept of the vulnerability of the back, of ease of injury, is nothing less than a medical catastrophe for the American public, which now has an army of semidisabled men and women whose lives are significantly restricted by tht fear of doing further damage or bringing on the dreaded pain again. ..."
The second thing I remembered was the two times when I had a really hard time shaking off the TMS pain related to running, even though I knew about TMS and had been victorious in the past. On both occasions, I think that the pain got a "foot hold" because I thought maybe I had really hurt myself. By the time I realized that the pain was "behaving" like TMS, and especially that it was not healing like a normal cut or bruise would (that's one of my litmus tests), it was sort of entrenched and I had to do a lot of journaling and mental work to get rid of it.
Surgery, broken bones, bullet wounds -- all these medical problems start to heal immediately, unless obvious infection exists. Yet we turn to sports "injuries" and other TMS manifestations and suddenly we are to expect weeks going by with no sign of change or improvement? I know a guy who recently qualified for Boston, a really strong runner, and a month later he got a "rare" running injury. So he stopped running. Weeks went by. It still hurt. That just doesn't make sense. Imagine someone having bullet wound that just stayed the same for 6 weeks. It's ridiculous. The only thing that will not heal when left alone is our mental hurt.
I hope this helps and that you will be out running again soon. It is such a great time of year to be a runner. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 08:56:03
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HI crk.
i have NOT stopped running . as i wrote previously i trained for my first marathon in 10 years and was able to run through all the niggles i had. i was victorious. last sunday this hip/piriformis/itb pain started. i really haven't done anything differently. what i think i mean to convey is that people with tms tend to "catastrophize" their injuries. the crux of all TMS pain - and a definite theme that is in many posts here on the forum - is "how do you know what is TMS and what isn't". I am still not great at this differentiation yet. the fear is creeping back into my psyche even though i have been successful the past 6 months. i sense it. i will try to run tomorrow and try to gauge what's going on.
thanks for replying. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 10:24:49
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quote:
i think in my case it is the fear of having to take time off from running - not just the "normal" 6 weeks but the months and months
Of course, the irony is that fear tends to be self-fulfilling.Fear of time off leads you to take time off. I've been running since 1974 and have been dealing with TMS since maybe 1995 or so. In my opinion and experience, we continue to deal with TMS over and over again until a shift in philosophy takes place. Until I learned to accept that I am not special, that the world will not come to an end if I no longer am able to run, and that my pain is of no great, universal significance, I continued to have outbreaks of fear and worry. I still do occasionally, but I have the tools to deal with them now. Sounds overblown perhaps, but make peace with your own mortality, and I guarantee you'll worry less about a 4 week running innjury.
The thing that's helped me more than anything else has been learning to substitute laughter for fear. I laugh out loud now when I feel pain while running. It's impossible to worry and laugh at the same time I've found. No better medicine for the tms'er.. |
Edited by - art on 05/21/2009 10:27:13 |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 10:52:16
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Hi ARt-
welcome back. i am still dealing with some issues. but things have been going great up until 2 weeks ago. one thing you wrote and CRK wrote is about taking time off. CRK said she goes to the running injury forums and people whine about taking time off because of injuries. And she also mentioned about the competitiveness of runners. Don't you both believe that if you are training for something in the future (i.e., a marathon in 3 months) that there is always going to be that great fear of taking time off from training for the pains and ruin your training plan. i think that is what i do -- is that considered being in the future rather than the present? i am planning on running a marathon in the fall. the training starts in july but i don't want to miss june "resting the injury" because then you have to start from square one again regaining your fitness.
that i think is what i mean to infer about the fear of taking time off. i am letting this current "injury" get a foothold again. ran this morning and it has gotten worse and spread from the hip to the back. i have been trying to think psychologically and trying to figure if there is anything that i have done physically or running wise to cause this.
not sure why this current issue has lingered for 2 weeks and has gotten worse when in the last 6+ months of training ofr a marathon i was basically pretty good and able to get past all the 'niggles'.
by letting in this fear - i start obsessing about missing running and not reaching my goal.
tough conditioning to let go of. any advice.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 05:26:04
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"i have been trying to think psychologically and trying to figure if there is anything that i have done physically or running wise to cause this"
You can't do both. Only the first will begin to set you free. You might consider giving up training for specific running events for a while, and run for the sheer joy of it. |
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 17:46:26
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quote:
Originally posted by hsb
... Don't you both believe that if you are training for something in the future (i.e., a marathon in 3 months) that there is always going to be that great fear of taking time off from training for the pains and ruin your training plan. i think that is what i do -- is that considered being in the future rather than the present? ...
HSB, you have brought up an extremely interesting point! For me, the 3 month thing is not a big deal. But just about when my training is peaking before a marathon-- 2-3 weeks from race day-- is when I am most susceptible to tms. Why? That is when I start thinking about my performance as a measure of my worth. All those runs, all that training. And what if I don't do well?
I learned a lot about this in the past year. First was the Portland (OR) marathon last October. I posted on my running blog all about how I was going to try to qualify for Boston. (Note, public judgment) I planned my race strategy with a steely heart. I went out with the pacers. I had a TERRIBLE race. My stomach cramped, my legs hurt, and I missed that time goal that I was so sure of by 25 minutes. From mile 7 I was asking everyone around me for some Motrin. That was Lesson 1.
Lesson 2. I wanted to "erase" the nightmare, so I signed up for CIM in December. I told everyone that I had only 2 goals. No BQ. Just 1) have a fun time and 2) get a negative split. (First half of the marathon slower than the second half.) No time goal! And guess what? I had the most amazing marathon of my life (it was my 16th). I enjoyed it so much! I not only got both of my goals but I came within 1 minute of my PR, a PR that had been made out of 26.2 miles of suffering and pain.
Did I learn? No. Lesson 3: Relearn Lesson 1. My May marathon this year was another "I am going to BQ now" marathon. Everything was in my favor. Training great. Tune up races: all PR'd. Flat course. I start saying "This is it. My BQ." Two weeks before the marathon I start getting a little tms thing in my foot. I am sure it is tms because it's moving around a bit and flaring up whenever I see other runners. (Who me? Want approval of others? lol) But I do my Sarno thing and it is pretty much under control but not gone. Marathon day, no pain in foot. I go out pretty close to pace, thinking strategy, strategy. At mile 11 I start getting a leg cramp. Another death march. This time I'm 35 minutes over a BQ time and in horrible pain. On the way back to my hotel, I wept to my husband. "I knew. I have done this to myself before." I could have avoided this wasteful and disappointing experience. But I traded my love of running for a boastful, external motivation.
The lesson has finally sunk in. I must run for myself and the pleasure of running. I believe I WILL achieve a BQ, probably in the next year or two. But I cannot put it before the number one goal: enjoying my sport. It will have to come when it comes. Running friends always ask what my goals are for an upcoming race. I have to start responding with, "just have fun and see what happens." Thank goodness I have the memory of CIM to cherish and emulate.
Gosh, I hope I'm not turning this into CRK's personal therapy thread. But what happened to me has been such an eye opener. I am sure there are non-tms victims out there who can succeed with a pure focus on pace and time goals. I am not one of them and I have learned it the hard way. Twice. I've got too much crap from childhood regarding performance and self-criticism. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 17:55:23
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"The lesson has finally sunk in. I must run for myself and the pleasure of running. I believe I WILL achieve a BQ, probably in the next year or two. But I cannot put it before the number one goal: enjoying my sport. It will have to come when it comes. Running friends always ask what my goals are for an upcoming race. I have to start responding with, "just have fun and see what happens." Thank goodness I have the memory of CIM to cherish and emulate. "
Beautifully said. External, performance based thinking is in my opinion unhealthy for the TMS'er. For me, at age 58, every single mile is an occasion for celebration and gratitude.
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 19:40:45
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CRK-
nice post. thanks.
my personal running history is sort of similar to yours. i have been running for many years and have sustained many many many running "injuries" during that time. i do believe that it has always been tms. but i constantly took time off and tried the therapies, treatments, etc. what i have found is that each time i come back to running i am slower and slower and it takes longer and longer to get back. i have never gotten back to where i was. each layoff has taken its toll. i am just about now at a point where it doesn't matter how fast i am; as long as i can run w/o taking time off. this year was great for that. so far it's been over 7 months w/o taking time for for an "injury". so i am getting better in believing that my pains will resolve themselves.
i really don't care about my times any longer. i just can't bear taking time off and starting all over again. i am trying not to give in to it; as you said, crk - it's gaining a foothold.
congratulations on your great race.
p.s. when i ran mcm in 1999 it was one of those races - the sun, moon, stars must have been aligned, the miles passed w/o me thinking. i came in 2nd in my age group. what a moment! i know what your feeling.
i am going to run tomorrow and go with it
i had not raced in 10 years because of the disappointment of never getting to the starting line (injuries and layoffs). this year when i did my first marathon in 10 years, i made a pact w/myself - no speedwork, no intervals, just running. and i made it to the start and i finished. now that i have accomplished that ..... i decided to commit to a fall marathon.
training won't start until july . so guess what .... my back, my hip, my itb are killing me.
my brain is telling me , how can i start a training program "hurt". the tms thinking is sneaking in --- i have to take time off to heal, why did i sign up for a race, i cannot take time off, it will take so much to get back again.... the battle within...
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Any runners? Or would be?
