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iyusaf
USA
57 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2009 : 12:35:16
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The pain has not gone away permanently although I have seen resolution of one or more specific symptoms. It has changed from one form to another -- a game of whack-a-mole. I was a Sarno patient many years ago (maybe fifteen; I've lost track).
Times are tough right now in the global economy. I have slammed into some difficulties. The present situation is touching on some intense feelings and has pushed my rage soothe ratio way over to one side. The environment is about as bad as I have seen it in my life.
The pain is back with a vengeance. This time, like last time (2004), it is sciatica pain. It is not disabling because I accept there is no structural problem and mostly continue about my business. However it is painful and exhausting and makes me less patient and tolerant in my day to day life.
When the pain is screaming at me I do not treat the symptom with drugs. I lay down if the opportunity exists and try to get under the pain. I try to feel. It would be hard to argue that I am focused on the physical. I am very actively involved in deep feeling with a professional. I accept that there may be an enormous amount of this stuff. Perhaps I am only touching the surface despite the time, energy and success in digging up real feelings.
I am having trouble this round with the notion that knowledge and acceptance will cause the symptom to dissolve. That is, I believe I have fully accepted TMS as the culprit but have not broken through the pain. This is my own "clinical" evidence. My doubt is that TMS may be no different than a number of other placebos for breaking the pain symptom. Perhaps it is simply a more powerful and longer lasting one. Anyone willing to set me straight? |
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Capn Spanky
112 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2009 : 14:38:26
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I like to analyze things.
I rarely accept things at face value.
No-one is absolutely right or wrong, no issue is black or white... there are many a shades of gray.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
I am very skeptical of claims of medical cures, especially when it's made by those who are outside the mainstream of medicine.
But I can guarantee you one thing. Dr. Sarno's treatment for TMS is NOT a placebo. IT IS A CURE! When I equivocated or had doubts about this I remained in pain. Now I believe it with all my heart and I am 100% pain-free. |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2009 : 14:49:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Spanky
I like to analyze things.
I rarely accept things at face value.
No-one is absolutely right or wrong, no issue is black or white... there are many a shades of gray.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
I am very skeptical of claims of medical cures, especially when it's made by those who are outside the mainstream of medicine.
But I can guarantee you one thing. Dr. Sarno's treatment for TMS is NOT a placebo. IT IS A CURE! When I equivocated or had doubts about this I remained in pain. Now I believe it with all my heart and I am 100% pain-free.
I agree fully with the bolded part. My biggest pain drivers are doubts about my ability to recover and fear of the pain coming back. When those two things creep into my consciousness, the pain follows within minutes. I truly do have to forget about the pain in order for it to not return.
For me personally, I believe that I have TMS and that there is no other cause for my back pain, though I am a no-brainer because my MRI shows very little visible degeneration in my back. So that leads me to question if there is something on your diagnostic tests that would lead you to believe you do not have TMS? Assuming you have gone the traditional routes to manage your pain--chiropractor, massage, PT, surgery--have those treatments worked? I'm going to guess they haven't or you wouldn't have found Sarno. |
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HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2009 : 17:44:56
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I believe TMS is the same thing as placebo, despite Dr. Sarno saying it is not.
I also believe that untreated TMS is like "Nocebo" which is the opposite of placebo. You believe you are broken and thus your body feels that way.
But successfully treated TMS i sa form of "permanent placebo" because when you are successful at it, your brain is always saying "its going to be ok and everything will get better" And it does.
Dr. Sarno defines placebo as temporary, and by that definition, TMS would not be placebo.
I am a psychologist. There is no evidence that placebo MUST be temporary. I believe Dr. Sarno's approach works because it allows the brain to engage in an infinite "placebo-think."
That does not mean there is something wrong with your body that only feels better because you "believe" you are better. Rather, your body was feeling teribble because you "believed" it was broken. Now you "believe" it is not.
In other words, it all psychological. In both directions. You get what you focus on, the cognitive thought patterns are the "builder" of your subjective experience.
My 2 cents
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Edited by - HellNY on 02/23/2009 17:45:38 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2009 : 20:00:58
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I believe that if one gains pain relief from following Dr. Sarno's treatment plan they are experiencing nothing but a placebo. He goes to great length poo-pooing various diagnoses and treatments out there in Healing Back Pain, and warns his patients that if they get relief through any other means than his that they are experiencing a placebo. The evidence for this is ironically in his words, as he states that placebo cures are almost always temporary. Take a look at the myriad who frequent this board who are still in pain after YEARS of trying the treatment or who come down with something else and stay upset about it and it goes round and round.
No, Cap'n, I'm sorry, but I don't see this as a cure. I applaud you for working your way through it in your own way, as did I, but the placebo label can more easily apply to Dr. Sarno's treatment than many he denounces.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 02/23/2009 20:03:50 |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2009 : 20:22:56
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Those are dangerous thoughts, iyusaf. ;)
---
author of tms-recovery . com |
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mizlorinj
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 08:44:06
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TMS program treats the CAUSE, which is TMS, mind/body, etc. and that is the only answer. You can treat symptoms from now till doomsday. No thanks. Those who come back with other pains but healed the original one have continual stressors; new situations arise that need attention. We are human; we react to stressors. I had a headache briefly last week but I know why I had it and did the work to alleviate the pressure, thus, the pain.
One you know they are nothing serious and can do your journaling or whatever method rids you of the perceived stressor, even if just viewing the situation differently, your pain goes away.
So this program is not a placebo.
That said, if you do not believe the TMS program will work for you, it won't.
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Edited by - mizlorinj on 02/24/2009 08:48:54 |
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Capn Spanky
112 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 09:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
No, Cap'n, I'm sorry, but I don't see this as a cure. I applaud you for working your way through it in your own way, as did I, but the placebo label can more easily apply to Dr. Sarno's treatment than many he denounces.
Yet thousands are totally and permanantly cured. Outside of yourself, how many have you cured with your theories?
I don't mean to attack you personally, Hillbilly.  But often I see you quite boldly denouncing Dr. Sarno's treatments and theories, as though they are pretty far off base. To be honest, I wonder if this is more harmful than helpful to folks who are struggling.
There's nothing wrong with questioning Dr. Sarno. I have my own serious problems with certain things. But I know that I did not get better until I completely and fully accepted the principals best summarized on the very first page of "Healing Back Pain".
If you have found a new and better alternative for those who are struggling, then God bless you! Please share it with us! But don't **** all over Dr. Sarno in the process. Not when it works so brilliantly for so many of us. |
Edited by - Capn Spanky on 02/24/2009 10:02:34 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 10:28:47
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quote:
Yet thousands are totally and permanantly cured.
And proof of this statement of fact comes from where? Sarno's own claims, of course. No, cure means no relapse. Where are the data stored about relapses? Monte Hueftle claims many have been pain free for years and then call him because something is going on with their body that they can't rid themselves of.
And what about the absolute insistence that nothing else could possibly cause pain besides inner turmoil? How did Robin McKenzie, Pete Egoscue and many others gain fame with their postural retraining treaments if they rid no one at all of their ailments? Wouldn't all of these people be screaming in pain and running around trying to find a TMS doc or Sarnotherapist? No, of course, they have had a placebo effect, so powerful a placebo effect in fact that they need no further treatment. Thus sayeth Sarno.
As for the snide and absurd remark about my theories and how many I have cured: I haven't written five books, four of which said exactly the same thing claiming I could cure everything from back pain to seborrheic dermatitis. Applause for your being pain free, but please spare me the histrionics about "cure." There are plenty here that would pay good money even for placebo relief. Have they just not believed? That must be it. They just need to keep reading the books.
Now, being the skeptical type that you claim earlier in this very thread, what would you say to those who have journaled their fingers off, screamed into pillows, beaten everything in their house except — and possibly including — the dog with bats, and gone through years of Sarnotherapy, yet still are in tremendous pain? Please help them see the light.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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LuvtoSew
USA
327 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 10:44:05
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| If it is a placebo, it sure beats surgery and drugs, at least its a non invasive placebo. |
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mizlorinj
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 11:29:12
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Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But then I wonder: If you don't agree with Dr. Sarno and some or most of his ideas, why spend your time on this Forum?
Dr. Sarno's ideas have worked for many of us--I am one of them who went from bedbound to up and about within two weeks using his program. There are plenty of other success stories here too.
Best wishes. |
Edited by - mizlorinj on 02/24/2009 11:32:16 |
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HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 12:54:42
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quote:
Originally posted by mizlorinj
Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But then I wonder: If you don't agree with Dr. Sarno and some or most of his ideas, why spend your time on this Forum?
Dr. Sarno's ideas have worked for many of us--I am one of them who went from bedbound to up and about within two weeks using his program. There are plenty of other success stories here too.
Best wishes.
I agree with Sarno but noty every part of his theories. Part of the confusion lies in what we mean by "placebo." I think placebo is simply a term that describes how the mind has domain over teh way we feel. But placebo does not need to be temporary, based on teh way I view it. It can be permanent. Sarno feels that he must differentiate his effects from "placebo" bacsue he believes it is by definition temprorary. I do not.
I doubt there is one mechanims of teh mind for "short term relief" and a different mental mechanism for "long term relief."
I think Sarno's mechanism is teh same thing as placebo, but it lasts permanently as long as you keep believing it does. It also works the reverse. If you believe you are broken then you will suffer,
About those who dont believe in parts of Sarno. I think they should be able to post their opinions when questions are asked. If that is not to be allowed, then questions such as the one that the OP posted should not be allowed either. They by definition seek peopl'es honest opinions. If only 1 view is permitted, then the answers ar pre-ordained and a FAQ should be in place with no questions allowed. |
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mizlorinj
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 13:49:33
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OK. If I didn't agree with most of what Sarno says (doesn't have to be everything) and hadn't personally been helped using his treatment plan, it's unlikely I'd be on this particular Forum trying to help others who are using his approach. I don't feel it would make sense for me to spend my time here.
But hey, not everyone has to agree. 
Best wishes!
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Edited by - mizlorinj on 02/24/2009 14:35:43 |
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marsha
252 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 15:11:22
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Who cares what you call it. You are arguing semantics. If you feel better and Sarno’s way works, GREAT.
Nothing is forever.
Stop arguing! It isn’t good for you and it certainly isn’t helpful to me.
Marsha |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 15:11:41
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| The same argument can be (and has been) made about every other treatment for pain. How "cured" are people who keep going back to physical therapy or to a chiropractor and are still in pain? How cured are people who take pain medications or limit their physical activity or resort to surgery and are still in pain? I'm willing to bet that most of the people on this forum made it here after a very long road of false starts and treatments that didn't work. If the Sarno approach works, whether by the book or modified by someone else, then I'm not going to criticize it. |
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HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 15:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by marsha
Who cares what you call it. You are arguing semantics. If you feel better and Sarno’s way works, GREAT.
Nothing is forever.
Stop arguing! It isn’t good for you and it certainly isn’t helpful to me.
Marsha
Wow. |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 16:03:40
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quote:
(iyusaf) I am very actively involved in deep feeling with a professional.
iyusaf, it's good that you are doing that. Don't stop, because I believe that is vital for one's well-being as a person, irrespective of the pain.
If you feel this isn't going to help you with the pain, then find something that is.
Me personally I don't care if my cure is a placebo or not, that's just a word. What matters to me is that I'm not in pain and am not restricted in my activities.
But that's me. Only you can decide whether this is going to work for you.
But even if you decide to try something else, keep on with the feelings work, too. It can only be a good thing.
Hilary N |
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HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 16:16:09
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I think the only thing I was trying to say about Sarno being or not being a placebo is that there is a whole literature out there on placebo. There is a growing literature on Sarno's theories. Its not just semantics. It does matter, at one level, if they are the same thing or not -- because if they reflect the same psychological/brain process then each literature and associated research becomes applicable to the other. This is how I see knowledge as being integrated.
I have been very successful with Sarno's approach. Its turned everything around. But its also made me think that the whole "placebo" thing may actually be a from of Sarno, but incomplete, since it omits important components.
Iysaf came to this forum with a question, and each person answered what they thought was right. She asked about whether we thought oif it was placebo or not. I dont perceive any arguing. I think thinking about things is different ways is helpful. Maybe if we stop thinking that "palcebo is bogus" then we we wont worry whether or not Sarno's theory is its equivalent. Maybe there are truly a part of a same underlying phenomenon - the influence of our thoughts and feelings on our own health. To me, if they are part of the same process, then knowing that would be a step forward in learning how it works. And also a step away from fearing or worrying that it might be "just" placebo.
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iyusaf
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 10:29:18
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Thank you for your valuable opinions and for entertaining the discussion. I want to clarify one point. I do not see physical treatments whether they are allopathic or naturopathic as alternatives to the TMS approach. The only game in town at this point for me is deep feeling. The difference now versus flare-ups over the last 15 years is that previously the TMS approach worked at resolving my pain symptoms. This time I have no such relief. I would be thrilled if the TMS work resulted in pain relief again, placebo or not.
-iy |
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Is TMS a placebo?
