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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2008 : 11:16:56
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| I just have a question. I was just thinking since fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome are TMS and they cause lymph node enlargement how come tms can't just cause lymph node enlargement by itself? I know TMS isn't causing my palpable lymph nodes but was just wondering the correlation if there was one between excessive stress, tms, and chronic lymph node palpability. |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 12:05:29
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You had the lymph node biopsied and it was reactive/benign so what are you worried about??? Conquering the fear is half the battle here. At this point, you either have to move on or seek help for anxiety/hypochondriasis because you have done your medical duty. Approaching this as TMS isn't going to help matters. You don't have any TMS symptoms.
I would really try to just forget about it. If its not getting bigger, then I promise you are fine. It hasn't changed in size in over a year, is that correct? How big was it to start with? Just because its palpable that doesn't mean anything. A lot of people have sub-cm palpable benign/normal lymph nodes.
You have been cleared by medical specialists so you either need to let go or see a psychiatrist, in my opinion. The goal here is to be able to live a normal life again where you are not consumed by fear any longer. I don't think approaching this as TMS alone can achieve that.
Best,
MK |
Edited by - mk6283 on 12/07/2008 12:17:39 |
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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 12:10:29
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| I'm worried because of the high false negative rates. I'm woried because more are popping up. Idk if its because I'm getting really good at finding them or somethings spreading. |
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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 14:24:40
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| Before when I responded my computer didn't show me your entire post so to answer your other questions. Im not sure if its changed in size and I can feel at least 6 nodes. I'm getting either really good at finding them or they are multiplying. also when the largest node was biopsied it was 1.5 x 1.9 cm. You are right the goal is to live a normal life and I want to so badly but I'm afraid due to falsenegative FNA and core needle biopsy I'm worry excessively. I am trying and I talk to someone. I just can't get the info I read off my mind. If they were in my neck I wouldn't worry but its the collarbone area which most people if not all people cannot feel their nodes there. I'm just getting chest pain real bad and when I push in my collarbone there's a node in my muscle which I think is causing the pain. Its referred pain to my heart. Thats why I asked the question about fibromyalgia. Thank you for your response I am feeling less anxious. I just hope they havent gotten larger. I have no infection so I know these nodes are permanent. |
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Effie
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 16:38:43
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| When you described the node in your muscle, that sounds a lot like a "triggerpoint." Before I learned about TMS, I was told that I had chronic myofacial pain syndrome, in which there are knots that are called triggerpoints in your muscles. I had a bunch of them in my back and shoulderblades, they feel like hard lumps about the size of peas. One knot can pull your muscles so tight that it can cause another knot in another place, and the referred pain can get really bad. If you Google "triggerpoints" you'll find a lot of information about them, including some diagrams of where they can be found on the body. Wikipedia has a very good article describing them. Once I learned about TMS I stopped the triggerpoint massage therapy and stopped worrying about them, it took a little while, but they gradually subsided. They can still pop up when I'm under stress, though. They are definitely not recognized by the medical community at large, and I now believe they are caused by TMS and they are exacerbated by stress and fear, and they go away once I acknowledge to myself that I don't need to worry about them any more. |
Edited by - Effie on 12/07/2008 16:59:03 |
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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 18:49:51
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| Effie- I looked online and yes it seems it can def be a trigger point however I am a bit confused this pain can come on its own? It feels like It is deep sharp and in my heart. Hypothetically if a lymph node enlarged in this trigger point area can it be hitting the trigger point to make this pain? Its only my left side and when I turn my head to the left I'll get the pain from my collarbone to chest. All of a sudden I'm getting this pain. |
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Effie
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 04:51:59
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| Hi Jena -- after I wrote my reply last night I remembered that I had chest pains, too, when I had the trigger points. Although I didn't have one near my collarbone that I knew about, I did have one in my chest area, closer to my armpit. After I stopped all treatments, the triggerpoints subsided and the chest pain did too. I was never sure if the triggerpoints were causing the chest pain, or if it was just the anxiety and fear I was experiencing from the pain, which was definitely REAL and very intense. I now think I was having what the doctors call "panic attacks" from the fear and pain, although I don't know why they call them that because they don't feel like panic - they feel more like a heart attack. Around the time I was having the back pain it became so severe at one point that a doctor put me on Hydrocodone, which definitely did not help the pain and gave me really bad panic attacks and chest pain. But I had EKGs done at that time and they did not show any abnormality. And fortunately, they disappeared along with the pain once I believed I had TMS. The cycle of TMS is extremely scary -- one thing can lead to another thing and the next thing you know, it's all spinning out of control. I'm so glad I discovered it and was able to break the cycle of fear and pain that TMS causes. |
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Effie
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 05:00:20
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| I just did a quick Google search for "trigger point heart pain" and it appears that trigger points in the chest area can cause heart pain. Try doing a search and see what you can find . . . |
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Pd245
58 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 09:03:10
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I have trigger points in my chest muscles, collarbone area, neck, everywhere. Lately I've been getting more chest pain, which I figure is the TMS trying to freak me out. A little test I do is press on the area that hurts - if I can tell that it's the muscles that hurt (they usually feel tight and sore when pressed on, or they refer pain), I can calm my fears that I'm having a heart attack, and I just say to myself - it's just TMS.
I tend to be a bit of a hypochondriac and I usually distrust what doctors say, so my rule to myself is to always get three opinions from three highly respected doctors who specialize in the area I'm concerned about. If all of the tests say it's nothing, and the doctors say I'm fine (and I haven't passed out or bled or had any really obvious symptoms that would send me to the ER), I let it go. These are all control issues, which can be maddening.
It sounds like TMS, but if it will help you let go, you could get one more opinion from a well respected doctor who specializes in that sort of thing. If you've already had three or more opinions from doctors who specialize in that area, it's time to let it go. It also helps to hear from other people that they have those knots, and that's it's normal for them.
But I've been there! By the way, my husband has those knots all over his leg - one sticks out of his calf so much you can see it across the room, but he's been told they're nothing. And he's perfectly healthy. |
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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 19:06:29
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| wow everyones so knowledgable and making me feel better and normal. Is it possible if you contiuously rub in your collarbone to make it enflamed and swollen? Idk if this is my lymph nodes or just muscle tissue or something else making it puffy. Anyone have experience this? |
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phyllis
United Kingdom
46 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 06:40:37
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I was reading an article in the English press this weekend about a charity called Combat Stress which helps soliders back from war zones.
It mentioned a woman soldier has been diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Syndroms and it said stress had caused fibromyalgia.
I have to admit this was the first time I had actually seen it menetioned that STRESS had caused this for the woman. I don't suffer from fm but know that a lot of poeple on the forum do. However, that being said I know a podiatrist who said to a friend who had sore legs that she probaboly had fm and should take anti depressants! What a crazy thing to recommend!
I am beginning to realise more every day the power of the mind. It is truly incredible.
I never hear of the British medical profession talking about TMS. It seems that if you go to the doctor's with any sort of pain they are only too happy to dispense often VERY strong painkillers.
I no longer suffer with my back because I have changed my mind set, but I am sure in the past if I had been offered at least some relaxation techniques this would have helped.
I feel the British medical profession should be trained differently and not offer so many drugs. Unfortuantely, drugs are heavily marketed and profits are huge.
Keep going everyone and the best thing you can do is look in a mirror at yourself and say 'This is not going to beat me'.
We have a famous explorer in UK Ranulph Fiennes. He has done it all - climbed this and that, traversed the Poles etc. etc. and then he developed a bad heart. This didn't stop him! He then ran marathons in about ten countries. I am not saying you should all do this, but he was so determined that he set his mind and got on with it. I am not sure what he is up to at the moment - probably hauling a sledge across some waste somewhere!
Onward and upward.
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Effie
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 18:11:57
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I just wanted to mention that I've read that oxygen deprivation to the muscles is one theory of what causes triggerpoints, and definitely once they form it is helpful to massage them to get the oxygen flowing back through them, otherwise they'll just get worse. I saw a triggerpoint massage therapist who rubbed them so hard that it made them a LOT more painful! I think "triggerpoint therapy" does more harm than good and just continues the cycle of pain. But I did have one regular massage therapist who just rubbed them gently and the pain relief was immediate, I would leave her office pain free. But until I discovered and overcame the TMS they just came right back again.
I don't think it's a coincidence that Dr. Sarno says that in TMS your brain reduces the flow of oxygen to your muscles. He says to visualize your brain sending more oxygen to to the painful areas. Whenever I feel my knots tightening up due to stress now, I use the TMS techniques I've learned and sometimes I have my husband rub the knots gently. So far I've been pain-free for about 8 or 9 months now!
I don't about them being inflamed and swollen, the were mostly on my back so I really couldn't tell -- but there was one on my chest near my underarm - and until I discovered TMS I was convinced that my underarm was swollen and the lymph nodes there were enlarged, but I had a two mammograms and saw several physicians who said they could find absolutely nothing wrong. Now I just use my TMS techniques and that feeling goes away.
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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 20:17:10
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| so is there a trigger point in your collarbone area or its not? I'm trying to figure out if this is one or not. I feel a liitle ball deep deep in the base of my neck towards the back. I hope thats what it is. And trigger points are tiny balls in the muscle correct? I believe the swelling went down from rubbing in my collar bone but I'm not sure why that happenend. This is so scary. |
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Effie
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 05:16:56
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No - I do not have a trigger point in my collarbone. I just did a little more research for you and here's a site that shows a diagram of trigger points in the scalene muscles, which sounds like the area you are describing and it also says: "Pain referred to the chest from the scalenes is commonly mistaken for angina":
http://www.amtamassage.org/journal/fall02_journal/scalenes_pg2.html
The article goes on to describe how to "massage" them, but those techniques did NOT work for me. I can't emphasize enough that I believe the best treatment for trigger points, as least for me, has been to avoid worrying about them and to treat them as a symptom of TMS. Like most TMS symptoms, trigger points are not recognized by the medical community at large, and I believe that's a big tip-off that they are TMS related. But I'm hoping that learning about trigger points might allay your fears somewhat.
As an example I'll share this story: I was at a dreaded office-wide meeting yesterday and in addition to the stress, we had to sit on hard church-pew type benches and while sitting there the main trigger point in my back zinged me really painfully several times. In the past I would have immediately become scared and started worrying about it, which would have made it worse, and by the time I arrived home last night I would have been in extreme pain.
But with my knowledge of TMS, I just accepted each "zing" and told my brain "oh wow -- that was a good one! I'm very impressed -- that was a nice try - but I'm on to your little tricks now - I KNOW it's the stress of this meeting and the hard benches causing this and I REFUSE to give you one more second of my time and I refuse to worry about this, so you can just stop with the shenanigans now!!" And after about the third zing, the pain went away and I was fine. And if that didn't work, I would have had my husband massage it gently after I got home, with a little Ben Gay, and that would have done the trick.
So while I acknowledge that I have them, I refuse to acknowledge that they can hurt me any more, and I'm not afraid of them anymore. I think fear greatly exacerbates the pain, at least for me it did, and once I stopped being afraid I started getting better. |
Edited by - Effie on 12/13/2008 05:41:47 |
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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 19:31:50
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| Ive read the article on trigger point however I am very confused about it still. Is trigger points something that happens or everyone has them? My pain is so specific to a certain area and usually happens as I turn my head, does this sound like trigger point to anyone? I really have to get back into this TMS thing. |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2008 : 22:04:23
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Jena, it sounds like you are really caught up on the medical details of what is going on in your body.
When I was in Phsyical Therapy for RSI in my arms, my therapists found all kinds of lumpy nodule things in my muscles and they sure did worry me.
I'd sit there and massage them all day, check for new ones, etc. hoping to relieve the pain. Didn't help. Sarno did. Reading the MBP book change my life, and I recovered from the pain in my arms over a few months.
Guess what? I've still got those little bumps and if I rub my muscle really deep I can feel them, but I've got 0% pain.
Re-read Sarno is my advice and when you find yourself thinking physical, see what you can do to recognize that *thought* and realize it's *just a thought* about your body.
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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 14:44:37
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How is everyone? Carbar I am so caught on medical details because I cant see how TMS can cause such specific pain in the one area in my chest. When your therapists felt nodules were they in the collar bone area and did they move around? See I was convinced for a little while that this might be trigger point but according to the internet trigger points are immobile. My lumps are mobile so its lymph nodes unfortunately. Carbar I must get back into the TMS thing but I dont think this is TMS really. Some of my issues are but not the lymph node thing. The chest pain is really scaring me. I dont know who I am anymore. I am not longer that 23 year old girl , I feel as though I am much mucholder. My back pain is cured though so I am glad about that. I will be rereading Sarno and in fact I might take a visit to him after the new year. My chest pain was so bad lastnight I couldn't sleep. Its sharp, dull, and achy. The sharp pain is the worst.
I will know more this week because I will be getting another CT scan to see if there has been any change in lymph node size and to see whats going on with my chest. Its the middle and mostly the left side. The right side feels great. Thanks for the warm advice I hope this scan turns out good. |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 16:34:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Jena
I dont know who I am anymore. I am not longer that 23 year old girl , I feel as though I am much mucholder. My back pain is cured though so I am glad about that. I will be rereading Sarno and in fact I might take a visit to him after the new year.
Hey Jena,
Arn't you a patient of Sarno himself? I'm shocked you have'nt seen/ or contacted him yet about the hell your'e going thru this past year. Does he charge as much for the follow up visits? Assuming it's a financial thing as to why your'e not seeing him. |
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Jena
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 17:25:39
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| I know and I live so close to Sarno it surprises me as well. I think it is because I truly think I have something real serious going on. If this CT scan is okay I will take a trip to see him. If I remember correctly once you pay the one payment you are a patient for life and I do not have to pay each visit but to be honest I am not commpletely sure. I only had to see him a few times and go to his seminars and I was cured of back pain. I never had to go back for that reason. I will let you know though because I do plan on seeing him in january. |
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TMS, fibromyalgia, CFS, lymph node enlargement
