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debbette
44 Posts |
 Posted - 08/30/2008 : 12:29:56
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I'm confident that I have TMS and I know I'm angry and the depth of my anger and why I'm angry. My symptoms which started as tingling in my right foot, also moved to my left foot, my left arm and now, the left side of my face. I'm still focusing on the anger and guessing the TMS is trying hard to convince me this is something other than TMS.
I thought once I identified the source of my anger and acknowledged the TMS, I would get better. I seem to be getting worse.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Debbie |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2008 : 19:48:43
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Check out "symptom imperative" again in your book, and remember that when TMS is desperate to keep you from making the distraction ineffective it may ramp up the symptoms. It means you are winning. :) So don't let the distraction work on you!
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What were you expecting? |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2008 : 09:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by debbette
I thought once I identified the source of my anger and acknowledged the TMS, I would get better. I seem to be getting worse.
First of all, you cannot claim that you identified the source of your anger. The anger you can identify is not the same as the unconscious rage that causes TMS. Furthermore, the anger you can identify on the surface is rarely a major ingredient of the rage. It is the stuff deeper down, that you are not aware of, that needs to be explored.
Second, trying to identify the sources of rage is only a part of the treatment equation. It is more important to break the cycle of symptom escalation and fear -- to recondition your reaction to the pain. This is a long-term process on which you should not put any timetable or it will just cause frustration.
The symptoms often get worse before they get better. The brain will not give up without a fight. |
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debbette
44 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2008 : 19:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
First of all, you cannot claim that you identified the source of your anger. The anger you can identify is not the same as the unconscious rage that causes TMS. Furthermore, the anger you can identify on the surface is rarely a major ingredient of the rage. It is the stuff deeper down, that you are not aware of, that needs to be explored.
Thanks for the responses - I really appreciate them.
Dave, I really just don't get this. I know I've read it in the books but I don't understand. I mean, aren't we journaling and focusing on the anger we feel to get to the unconscious anger? How are we supposed to "explore it" and get better if we can never identify it?
I really felt as though I was making progress ... soul searching, reading and journaling.
Can someone please explain this to me... how we can get to those unconscious feelings?
Thank you,
Debbie |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2008 : 09:32:12
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Deb, it's important to recognize that finding the 'true source' of the rage is unimportant to overcoming pain. In that much I wholeheartedly agree with Dave. It is easy to become obsessed with journaling and trying to 'find the emotions'. That is not the goal. At best, journaling is a pressure release valve (when done in the throes of emotion), a statement to the brain that we are paying attention to emotions rather than ignoring them, and an exploration of possibilities that can lead to an understanding of how we might have come to have such a full reservoir. (For me, listing off my pressures clarified that I had a lot going on, and I could see how TMS would develop from that.) It is a part of the reconditioning process that Dave described, but the physical reconditioning and resuming a normal life are equally or more important after acquiring the understanding of the connection between emotions and TMS.
That being said, though, I don't agree with Dave that it's impossible to truly figure out any of the things that affect our unconscious rage reservoir or to feel the rage. I think this is an area where Sarno, untrained as a psychologist and buying a bit too much into Freud, erred. It's impossible for me to provably show that I have felt what was once unconscious sadness/rage/etc, but I have certainly experienced flows of sadness and anger that felt like emotions I had long put aside and not acknowledged -- sometimes for many years, sometimes for a few days, weeks, or months. The depth of the emotions I experienced made it clear to me why my mind had chosen physical pain, because I found the emotions so intense that the physical pain almost did seem preferable at times.
Furthermore, I eventually went into therapy in order to learn to feel my emotions and stay with them as they came up, as well as how to respect my own emotions and put them into play appropriately in relationships. If it wasn't possible to feel emotions more than I was at the time, this therapy would not have helped. For me this has resulted in less emotional suppression/repression (hard to distinguish the two), a feeling of being more alive, and a sense that I am able to safely direct my own life by what I want. However, most of this happened during the later phases of my physical recovery and after I was physically recovered. So I can attest that this process is not necessary for physical recovery to begin.
At this point I would recommend that you focus on reconditioning and eliminating fear from your thinking habits, while keeping in mind the basic TMS principles and the results from any journaling or introspection you've done.
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What were you expecting? |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2008 : 09:43:01
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quote:
Originally posted by debbette
How are we supposed to "explore it" and get better if we can never identify it?
I really felt as though I was making progress ... soul searching, reading and journaling.
Can someone please explain this to me... how we can get to those unconscious feelings?
First of all, you should not get discouraged or frustrated as that is an enemy of progress. You are doing the work, which is good. However, make sure you do not have unrealistic or unnecessary goals.
By definition the unconscious rage cannot be felt. The mind introduces TMS symptoms to distract you from that rage, to prevent it from being felt. Think of it as a child inside you that has these feelings. The child has primitive, irrational, "forbidden" emotions that the mind deems too dangerous to be felt. Hence, it creates the TMS distraction to keep your focus elsewhere and keep those feelings buried.
While the rage itself is unconscious, the ingredients of that rage stem from your life. Mostly, it comes from the pressures you put on yourself to be a goodist or perfectionist. These personality traits stem from inner psychological issues such as low self-esteem. It is an important part of the process to explore these psychological issues, to attempt to identify sources of the unconscious rage. However, it is impossible and unnecessary to truly identify them. The important part is just to try.
Along the way you will certainly identify feelings you may not have been aware of before ... you will feel anger, and sadness, and other emotions. This is all part of the reconditioning process. By allowing yourself to feel these "dangerous" emotions you send a signal to your unconscious mind that you are going to face these feelings no matter what. You defy the mind's attempt to distract you with TMS symptoms.
The mind will not give up without a fight, so it will perpetuate and even intensify the symptoms. But over time, you will win the war, and the symptoms will fade, because the distraction stops working.
The important part of the process is to recondition yourself. The pain and other symptoms are a conditioned response you have learned over many years. Like any bad habit, it takes persistence and time to break it.
So, don't beat yourself up trying to identify the specific sources of rage that are causing the pain. You can't, and you don't have to. Just keep doing the work, don't try to track your progress, don't get frustrated with lack of results. You are embarking on a life long change in the way you think about and react to the pain, not a quick fix. It's akin to losing weight. Diets don't work. The only lasting 'cure' is to change the way you think about food and exercise on a fundamental level, and to lose the weight slowly but surely. Recovery from TMS is a similar process. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2008 : 09:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
That being said, though, I don't agree with Dave that it's impossible to truly figure out any of the things that affect our unconscious rage reservoir or to feel the rage.
To be clear, this is not really what I said. Of course we can feel emotions that we haven't felt before, that are ingredients of the inner rage. However, we cannot feel the unconscious rage itself because it is unconscious. There is a difference between this unconscious rage and other repressed emotions, such as anger you feel towards a parent or boss that you have not allowed yourself to feel before.
Of course, this is all just semantics, and ultimately this entire explanation is simply a metaphor. The inner workings of the brain are far too complex for us to truly comprehend. In fact, our desire to analyze, to intellectualize, to understand, can be an impedement to recovery.
The most important part of recovery from TMS is to learn to ignore the symptoms and accept that they are benign. The rest is a highly personal process. |
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moose1
162 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2008 : 14:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
It's impossible for me to provably show that I have felt what was once unconscious sadness/rage/etc, but I have certainly experienced flows of sadness and anger that felt like emotions I had long put aside and not acknowledged -- sometimes for many years, sometimes for a few days, weeks, or months. The depth of the emotions I experienced made it clear to me why my mind had chosen physical pain, because I found the emotions so intense that the physical pain almost did seem preferable at times.
Furthermore, I eventually went into therapy in order to learn to feel my emotions and stay with them as they came up, as well as how to respect my own emotions and put them into play appropriately in relationships. If it wasn't possible to feel emotions more than I was at the time, this therapy would not have helped.
this describes my experience so precisely it's nuts. i have been in therapy for four months now, trying to get to the bottom of terrible anxiety symptoms, and i can tell you that this is EXACTLY my experience. maybe armchair and i are in the very small minority here, but learning to *feel* my feelings - feelings that turned out to be not totally unconscious but *just* below awareness, yet still unreachable without a good therapist - is proving to be critical in relieving these symptoms. i have to stress that i have NEVER in my life been able to access these feelings - and never wanted to - until now, so you can imagine the size of the pool of painful stuff i have.
for me, much of the anger was just a front for what turned out to be feelings of intense sadness, loneliness, feelings of separate-ness, sorrow and a longing to belong. when i got a taste of these feelings, sobbing after not having cried for 15 years, it all starts to make sense.
so, while i think it's true that you don't have to identify exactly the feelings that TMS is trying to distract you from, in some cases like mine, it is critical to truly feel them...even if you don't know what exactly it is you are feeling.
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Edited by - moose1 on 09/01/2008 14:34:30 |
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Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2008 : 18:12:22
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"I'm confident that I have TMS and I know I'm angry and the depth of my anger and why I'm angry."
This is a great first step. keep reminding yourself that the process is harmless (although painful, I know). Journaling about those issues that generate anger can help you feel it, deal with it and move past it.
"My symptoms which started as tingling in my right foot, also moved to my left foot, my left arm and now, the left side of my face."
Think about how absurd this is (as long as you have been medically cleared). Pain moving around, helping to confirm that it's TMS, rather than an injury to one area of the body.
"I'm still focusing on the anger and guessing the TMS is trying hard to convince me this is something other than TMS."
You're exactly right. The TMS is indeed trying to distract you with the physical. It's important to constantly bring your focus back to the psychological. I remember early in my recovery, whenever I would have a new symtpom (and there were many), I would focus on what was going on in my life that might be causing my new symptoms. I wasn't always able to identify something specific, but just by not focusing on the physical symptom (and not fearing it), it would gradually resolve.
"I thought once I identified the source of my anger and acknowledged the TMS, I would get better. I seem to be getting worse."
You will get better, in time. Hang in there. Continue to re-read, journal (in moderation), remind yourself what's really going on. Get back to your life. Take care of yourself, balance your responsibilities with pleasurable experiences. Say NO occasionally. Try beating TMS at it's own game, when you have pain, do some activity (something fun or a household chore, anything, prefererably strenuous) to distract yourself from the pain.
Take a deep breath. Feel confident that you have found the information that has the potential to finally help resolve your pain.
I know how discouraging it can be, believe me. Patience is not one of my strong suits. But eight years after finding Dr. Sarno's information, I can tell you that had I given up when my symptoms didn't resolve as quickly as I would have liked, I would still be in excrutiating pain, and might be on disability like two of my siblings who have TMS but can't or won't accept it.
Take Care,
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2008 : 22:54:12
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quote:
First of all, you cannot claim that you identified the source of your anger. The anger you can identify is not the same as the unconscious rage that causes TMS. Furthermore, the anger you can identify on the surface is rarely a major ingredient of the rage. It is the stuff deeper down, that you are not aware of, that needs to be explored.
Clearly, Dave, you cannot state this with any real conviction. This amounts to nothing more than a paraphrasation of Sarno, and I dare say there isn't a soul alive who understands what that means anyway. She's already read the book(s). I can tell because she says she has identified her sources of trouble (doctor's orders) and acknowledged that this is the cause, and not some structural or organic problem. So if she's following orders, why do the symptoms persist? I like it when intelligent people inquire a little deeper and point out weak spots in this work-in-progress theory. If the books were all that were needed, this forum should not need to exist, nor the fourth version of the same theory, with a fifth due out soon.
No, Debbette has hit on something very, very important, and it isn't just acknowledging how damn angry you are, how fearful you are, or what sensitivity you have. It has to do with changing something that is far more fundamental, and that is how we react to the way we feel. This is something that I see discussed here very little. Observable behavior like shopping at Wal-Mart must be part of the treatment, but what happens between the ears must also occur or relief will be short-lived.
Being on guard for fear of passing out or making a fool out of ourselves in public is something with which nearly all with "stress problems" can identify. It is that damned dread that is hovering like a lurking shadow over our day. Perhaps it is the dinner party we must attend or wedding or some other social engagement that looms. Maybe performance reviews are coming and it is just another reminder that we aren't who we wanted to be when we grew up. It could be any of a million possibilities. So...
Once we get a good read on how troubling and upsetting our thought life is, we have to try to change it. A few decades back, it was discovered that people who suffered from anxiety and depression encountered virtual rivers of automatic negative thoughts all day, every day, regardless of socioeconomic standing, heredity, or anything else. That was the core problem that had to be addressed.
So, in Debbette's case, I see a person who is troubled by a nagging tingling. Not pain, but a weird something that has grabbed her attention. So now, instead of the ordinary stream of negative thoughts about external things, the thoughts about the symptoms are now running amok, never ceasing, disturbing all aspects of life, so that now the most troublesome thoughts are centered around the symptoms the thoughts brought about in the first place.
My advice to you, Debbette, is to no longer read the Sarno screeds at all. You have the gist of the problem. Now, the mental journey is clear. You have to find something else to occupy your thoughts besides this tingling. Focusing on how angry you are is not going to help either. That is the problem in the first place. That's all we think about, and that is the one thing that must change. You are giving yourself anxiety by focusing on the bad and the what-if. I did it for 30+ years before I was made aware of it. I wish you the best.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 09/01/2008 22:59:12 |
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mizlorinj
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 07:28:52
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Debbette, as you make a list of things that are "bothersome" and do journaling, you will be surprised what peeling back layers of the artichoke can reveal underneath. As I did my writing these past 1.5 years now, I have uncovered things I thought had been forgotten. And gotten them off me. Therefore, I have found journaling to be invaluable and addressed and removed many past things that had been buried below my everyday consciousness. Feeling the feelings is paramount to healing. Whether I'm getting to unconscious, etc. doesn't matter to me. I know I'm removing things stored and buried in there. And my health is improving as a result.
There are experiences where you do uncover things that are in your unconscious; they can come to the surface. Dr. Sarno gives one such experience in his books. So it CAN happen.
I see nothing wrong with continuing reading and re-reading Dr. Sarno's books. They have helped thousands of people. Sometimes our brains take longer than we like for things to sink in.
-Lori |
Edited by - mizlorinj on 09/02/2008 07:37:01 |
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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 08:36:24
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I never thought I had an anger problem until I read Sarno. Now I see that I'm super sensitive and that many things that other people would never notice or care about make me mad.
I've stuffed my anger for years because
1) I was never allowed to express it; most kids aren't--nor are adults for that matter,
2) I developed a self-concept that I'm a kind, understanding Catholic, so why would I ever be angry?
3) I'm a woman and being angry and aggressive isn't part of that picture. In fact, I usually cry when I'm enraged, probably because crying is more acceptable than flying off the handle. It's frustration, too, that I can't just explode.
That all said, I now see that my thoughts and reactions need to change and I'm working on that. But, for 40+ years, I internalized all my negative emotions and/or denied them. After reading Sarno for the first time, I had this graphic image of myself literally stuffing all my reactions into my body. It helped me take the first steps toward getting well.
As I've explored current reactions by journaling and in therapy, and connected them back to similar situations and reactions that I can remember in my past, the TMS symptoms have diminished.
So, I think as we've all said, it's important to find your own way to drain your own "saved up" or lingering pool of anger and emotions. It's not something you can touch on or see immediately and I think that's what Dave was saying. Draining the pool clears space in your mind and soul. Then, when something bothers you in the present, you have more energy and clarity to deal with it quickly, if not on the spot. Emotions begin as a feeling in our bodies. The trick is to recognize that twinge in the stomach, tightness in the shoulder as an emotion and deal with it (write it down, express it to someone else appropriately, or just sit with it) rather than focus on and thus perpetuate that physical symptom.
Hope this makes sense. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 14:17:50
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Recovery is really about gaining new frame of mind. It doesn't happen overnight. We developed bad habits of repressing emotion over the course of a lifetime. It is only logical to expect that it will take time and persistence to break those habits.
Even if you "think" the right things, it takes time for those thoughts to sink into your unconscious and really make a difference.
I really find it counterproductive to argue the finer points TMS theory. While it is essential to gain the knowledge, it is not necessary to over-analyze, or even to agree with the details of Dr. Sarno's theory.
In the end, it's about reconditioning our thoughts about, and reactions to, the symptoms. Winnie said it very well: "The trick is to recognize that twinge in the stomach, tightness in the shoulder as an emotion and deal with it (write it down, express it to someone else appropriately, or just sit with it) rather than focus on and thus perpetuate that physical symptom."
That's it in a nutshell. How you get there is up to you. |
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moose1
162 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2008 : 20:10:05
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you're right, Dave. looking behind the symptom - regardless of what that symptom is - and getting at the emotion which is giving rise to the symptom is the trick, and everyone is different as to how tricky theirs is. it's really a skill and - as you say - everyone attains that skill in their own way.
cheers,
moose |
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Insight or ideas?
