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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2008 : 09:51:47
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SO who are they? Dr. Sarno mentions them, but do we have a clue why they 'fail'? DO they just quit? Did Sarno discharge them due to no progress? Where do they go once they realise that, what is almost the last bastion of hope for their chronic pain puzzle, isn't working? Those numbers would suggest that one out of every ten will not get any use out of TMS work, so when does one decide or get to find out if they are that 'one'?
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 16:44:21
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| Kevin, what have you done to try to treat your anxiety condition? |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 19:53:14
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| Those people simply need more help and support in order to succeed. Therapy, www.thepathway.org, a course in miracles etc.... there are tons of ways to get the necessary support to lift yourself up to a higher level of consciousness which will in turn get rid of TMS pain |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 20:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Kevin, what have you done to try to treat your anxiety condition?
Don't know what this has to do with my questions. I'm honestly wondering if Sarno talks about 'them', or gives any speculation why someone would not succeed after TMS work.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
Edited by - la_kevin on 05/24/2008 20:21:00 |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 03:00:18
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my guess would be they were unable for whatever reason to allow themselves to experience the emotions they were repressing. that doesn't mean they failed, they just haven't completed what they need to yet.
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i'm not s#!t.
i'm champagne. |
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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 09:05:57
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| I think when I heard Dr Sarno talk about one study he did, there were 4 individuals (out of the 30 in that study? .. does anyone remember? .. I can't remember whether this was on one of the videos of recent news interviews or where I heard him say this) but that those 4 were still in long-term psychotherapy. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 09:38:10
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Sorry, Kevin, if I inferred that you were talking about yourself. I believe the main reason for people not getting better from anxiety conditions is that they listen to their body instead of reason, a hypochondriasis of sorts sets in over time. When symptoms are severe, it makes it very difficult to believe in a nervous condition, but the signs are obvious that the symptoms increase in severity along with inner turmoil or stress every single time, which belies any organic process. Belief is the main obstacle and first step in recovery, which can last a lifetime.
For those who do accept their diagnosis as harmless (TMS or anxiety), the biggest obstacle is fear. Those who believe totally that their symptoms are psychogenic yet are still afraid of experiencing their body's own exaggerated response to stress will not recover either. |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 14:27:48
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It's very very hard, even for me, not to wonder "is it really psychological". I struggle some weeks to maintain that it is TMS. To ask somebody not to think of physical pain as 'physical' is so counter intuitive, it might takes months just to get past that one part. For me, I know there is a relation to my mind and the pain, I just wonder 'how much' is psychosomatic, and how much is real 'injury' (or whatever) In the end, I know that I have had moments of complete pain freedom, after certain light bulbs have gone off in my head, but these moments have been for a day at most. My pain ALWAYS goes away during sleep, always goes away when I'm out in a social event or at a club/bar,always goes away when I get to the point of crying in therapy. So these things remind me that it is not 'physical'. But Jesus, it's a hard fight.
In the back of my head I always have this thought like, "Hmmm I wonder if this is the reason I'm having pain", or "Well what if they missed something" or " maybe THIS is the REAL reason" or " What if...if...what if...if I did more of this...maybe....what if blah blah blah"
It's enough to drive someone completely bat****. But seriously, out of all my research I still cannot find ONE plausible reason why the body would be in Chronic pain after this long. Other than a movement disorder like Dyskenesia or Myoclonus or Dystonia, I cannot see the connection to chronic muscle spasicity or pain.
How could a person's muscle tissue be 'injured' for years without letup or cessation? It's ludicrous when you think about it. But then I see these 'chronic back pain' websites which promote these theories that it's the MUSCLE IMBALANCE that is off,yada yada yada, and I get sucked in to THAT train of thought.
Ok I'm rambling. SOrry, weird obsessive moment there.
Long story Long...ok I'm babbling. WOW
I'll just shut up because I can go on forever about this crap, LOL.
Ok actually, that wasn't that much of a rant. It's just that my mind sometimes thinks "There's another answer" out there to get me to that 100% cured level. I always envision that we all have an enzyme or something that nobody bothered to look for, like I'm Sean Connery in that movie where he was in the Amazon with that girl, looking at flowers for the Cancer cure.
And then sometimes I think that because I MYSELF haven't been cured 100%, that somehow this TMS stuff is 'wrong'. So then I think that maybe it's me. Maybe I'm that percentage that doesn't 'get it'. But I seriously have done a lot of TMS work and understand my mind more and more everyday, at least my therapist says so. He thinks I'm one of his best patients. (Go figure).
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
Edited by - la_kevin on 05/25/2008 14:33:30 |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 22:01:02
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Kevin:
I too struggle with this all the time. I had a major episode of pain last year which floored me for 14 hours and kept me in bed for another 2-3 days. Ever since then, my trunk has been crooked. My right hip is farther forward than my left. My spine tilts to the left considerably throwing my shoulders and torso out of whack. The amount of tilt definitely changes based on the amount of tension or pain I'm experiencing, but even during NO pain times - I still tilt.
So what did I do? I started thinking muscle imbalance, postural reaons for my "crookedness". So off I go for some X-Rays - and nothing is found besides a little normal age related stuff. But no bad stuff in the bone structure to cause the tilt. So, since I don't believe in Chripractic - off I go to Physical Therapy. And truthfully, since I've been going - my mind has been totally focused on my body. Guess what - I've gotten worse.
I feel like I am in a constant state of tension. An amazing amount of fear of my next episode. My back "grabs" at me a few times a day doing nothing in particular. Sitting down, getting up, getting in or out of a car, bending to pet the dog. It's like I'm nearly disabled with the fear of it going into major spasm. The Physical Therapist constantly comments on how tight the muscles are from my hips to my rib cage. That they should be much softer. He calls it a virtual straight jacket - and it feels that way sometimes too. I'm so afraid to move normally that I stay rigid as a way of protecting myself.
Unfortunately, that only seems to perpetuate the TMS symptoms even longer. Sometimes I think the Physical Therapy is helping, other times I question that we are treating the symptom.
I shared my Healing Back Pain CD's with the P.T. We'll see if he gives them a listen or not.
Anyway, my point is that it's easy to lose faith. To question the TMS diagnosis. Me, I'm 100% convinced that the CAUSE of my muscle tension, crooked spine and my pain syndrome is emotional, rage and stress. What I can't seem to reconcile is the tilt in my spine when I'm not feeling any pain. So I question if stretching and certain exercises are needed to restore balance to a body twisted by my mind.
Am I in that 10% you describe? I don't think so. Because most of the time I lead a pretty normal life without many restrictions.
My path is a little uncertain - but I do know I need to dig deep into the TMS emotional work again. Probably even stop the physical therapy. I've had a good two days, but it is the weekend and I haven't been in physical therapy for a few days.
So, despite my conviction that I have TMS, I am still looking for the solution. I'm still not sure if the stretching and P.T. is helping or keeping me sidetracked mentally. Any suggestions are welcome.
And Kevin - I'm not sure if this helps answer your 10% question. I believe that even after Sarno's thorough pre-screening process to make sure the person is open minded enough to accept the diagnosis - there are still 10% that can't grasp the concept enough to make progress. Denial? Who knows. (sometimes I think I prefer the physical pain to dealing with the emotional stuff)
And while I'm not 100% "cured" I know I'm way better off for knowing about TMS and applying the treatment methods than I would be if I purely relied on mainstream medicine to help me out. The past 10 years would have been a LOT worse if it weren't for finding Sarno.
Stay strong...
Dan
PS: To me, if your pain disappears completely at times as you describe - that rules out a physical cause. Just my 2 cents. |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2008 : 02:50:36
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Kevin,
Questions for you:
1. what is so bad about having doubt? what would happen if you allowed yourself to have doubt instead of fighting it? did you know that contrary to popular belief - many successful people actually have more doubt and make more mistakes than the rest?
2. Thats good that your therapist thinks you are a great patient, but you know yourself better than your therapist, so why don't you form your own opinion about yourself? Can you give yourself an honest self assessment about the patterns of your mind and how they may or may not contribute to TMS?
3. why not go and devour books on healing to balance out the other stuff you are reading about chronic pain etc.... why not atleast consider both points of view? there are a ton of books on all types of healing....bernie siegel, wayne dyer, carl simonton etc.... or other books like carlos castenada. Just because these books don't have "TMS" or "back pain" in the title doesn't mean they can't be very helpful
Good luck with your journey, your post sounds very sane for someone who is in the trenches with TMS. Many of us have been there, and many more will be there.
John
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2008 : 17:46:45
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quote:
To ask somebody not to think of physical pain as 'physical' is so counter intuitive
This may just have come out sounding odd because it is quick forum writing, but I wonder if you are actually trying to go too far with this "it's not physical" thing. Sarno's phrasing is really much more that the pain is physical but the cause is in the brain rather than the body, or that the cause is not due to body structure (structural).
Since Sarno regards the mindbody as one entity, it may not be very helpful to talk or think about the pain being physical or not physical. Everything we experience is experienced in the mindbody. Physical/mental is a false dichotomy, albeit sometimes a useful one.
Give yourself some freedom to experience physical things, even pain, in your physical mindbody. Just remember the pain is generated by non-structural emotional causes, and can be banished by them too.
I wish I knew the answer to your original question. I think the world would benefit greatly from Sarno being more transparent about his clinical statistics and outcomes.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2008 : 20:29:13
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Armchair,
What I meant was, it is counter intuitive for a person to think that pain originates form the BRAIN. Everything in the human psyche automatically correlates pain with 'injury', disease, something wrong. To train the mind to not think this is a very hard task in itelf that's what I meant.
And I say that for the person that is on TMS 101 theory. Not the more 'advanced' people like us. But it is a dilemna that also strikes someone like myself who has studied TMS principles for over a year now.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2008 : 21:23:04
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LA Kevin, I think Dr. Schubiner's comparison of TMS to phantom limb pain would be a helpful concept for you to understand. He discusses this in some depth in his first teleseminar, available on his website. Otherwise, simply look into the phenomenon on the internet as I think it will help you grasp how common and feasible it is for the source of pain to lie entirely in THE BRAIN.
Best,
MK |
Edited by - mk6283 on 05/27/2008 21:25:36 |
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The 10-15% That Don't Succeed With This?
