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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
 Posted - 12/11/2004 : 05:08:05
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Dear all,
One thing that has been disturbing me recently is the tone of some of the messages being posted here. We are here to help, support and share in order to understand and overcome our problems but I feel that some newcomers are being somewhat bullied or frightened away by hard core tms believers who can be quite arrogant and forceful about what they think and believe to be the right approach.
I have noticed that if someone posts saying 'oh please I need help, I really do believe in tms' then the tone most people adopt is a kinder more gentle one but if the posts should in anyway indicate that there is some doubt and disbelief, we all seem to jump down that person's throat.
It is not easy adapting to the idea that the pain many of us feel may not be be physical and doing all the emotional work required. There is no one way to deal with the problems and each person has to work at his own pace and direction . The pain may be the same that is in the back or the neck but getting to the root of what is causing it will be varied. What works for one person may not work at all for another. If anyone doubts or questions the theory and practice of tms then I think it is a good sign because at least the person is thinking about it. It is extremely difficult to decondition ourselves to all the beliefs that have been instilled in us by the medical profession.
Lets not adopt a cultish approach and frighten people away if we are going to use this forum to help.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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holly
USA
243 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 08:14:55
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Very good post Mala. I myself am a devout TMS believer and yet I still have doubts regarding my latest woe. I would like to address the board with two questions if I may. You all probably know that I have this "pinky toes" problem. They constantly feel inflamed when I try to wear shoes. The slightist pressure causes a feeling like a blister being rubbed over and over again. A friend of mine said this to me yesterday "Holly did you ever think that maybe as you get older you just can't tolerate certian things anymore. I know I have things that I can't tolerate to wear anymore like I use to. Shoes are cut so narrow these days" etc. etc.. That was not good for me to hear because it makes sense! My other issue is this problem does not come and go, it is always there. Is that consistant with TMS? I should have asked Dr. Sarno when I was there but that was before I had this shoe experience again. Sorry to bother you all again but who else can I ask  |
Edited by - holly on 12/11/2004 08:20:25 |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 08:41:11
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Hi Mala.
I think I know some of the posts of which you speak..perhaps I'm one of the guilty.I think when people post doubts in a respectful manner,they have for the most part been calmly and cooly addressed,however some of the "newcomers" vascillate between a "would you help me,I'm having trouble" sort of solicitous tone,to one of
"you guys are all wrong and this is why"
I am a progressive Christian who lives in the Heart of the Bible belt...I don't go next door to the Baptist Church and say "You guys are taking this all out of context...they didn't mean it literally"...if I did,I might feel the "belt" of the Bible belt...I keep my doubts respectfully to myself,and inquire only when I truly want help.
I did read your post thoroughly and will take it in to consideration when responding to a new person.
We do get flamy after wandering in the desert for so long.
peace
Baseball65 |
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Irish Jimmy
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 09:02:23
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Mala, good post, I agree. I know people are trying to be helpful when giving advice, but it could come off wrong. Acceptance of TMS was easy for me, I read MBP and saw myself on every page, you might find this odd but I laughed the whole time I read MBP. I laughed because I found answers to Q's docs couldn't give me. I laughed because a foot doctor told me never take a job where I'll be "on my feet all day", or another doctor told me "...you'll never be a marathoner with the way your legs are set up, no wonder you have knee pain". And this other looney doc who told me "you'll have TMJ the rest of your life, everyday". Just to let you know, I'm training for a marathon on those same legs, knees,and feet. And the TMJ went away the next day after visiting lonney tunes doc, and hasn't returned.
I knew these doctors were off, it didn't make sense, but I had no idea or clue about TMS. I would like to think back then if I came to this site I would be incouraged, so that is what I like to do. I like to tell people if you have doubts, good, but if you believe TMS is for you and your doing the work, in time your pains(distractions) will lessen, and there is no greater doubt killer than that. In other words "Don't Give Up!". Those should be powerful words for a newcomer. As far as newcomers go, Welcome, good luck, -JIMMY |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 09:02:36
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Sometimes the best medicine down the road to healing is a good kick in the ass.
Your enemy who tells you the truth, is a better friend, than a friend, who lies to you. |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 09:03:07
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I think the “TMS fundamentalists” really are trying to help. They have experienced - in their own life - that
only a very strict approach (do not doubt, be very patient, never depend on any other method, never ask “when will this be over ?” etc) helped them to get over the pain
But I agree with you Mala.
This “knowledge” have to take time to sink in and if the advices are to aggressive, you just feel like a “bad person” who do not have the “right believe”. And that does not help at all
I think it is important -when you give advises - to speak for yourself -not for “the human race”.
“This certain reproach helped me” is better than “You have do exactly like this!”
But it is also important to not take everything so personal (but that can be tough when you are in pain
and vulnerable). After a while on the board you learn how different people write and can “read them” without
being so hurt.
But we have to be able to express our doubts without being banished.
Kajsa
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 18:53:52
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Sometimes the best medicine down the road to healing is a good kick in the ass.
Your enemy who tells you the truth, is a better friend, than a friend, who lies to you.
Yes, I agree but most posters are neither friends nor enemies. They are just people we know through this message board.
You don’t have to be aggressive. Being aggressive means that you’re a bully or too pushy with other people. When you’re aggressive you end up blaming, humiliating, or criticizing the other person. In my opinion people will not want to hear what you have to say if you’re aggressive.
Also, you want to examine why you feel the need to give someone 'a good kick in the ass' when they are down and in pain.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 23:29:11
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Mala,
I assume by quoting my post that it is me you are referring to. I stand by my post and if you read it thrououghly and understand it than you will see why I wrote it the way I did. I don't feel at all bad for what it says and don't retract any of it. Different people learn in different ways. What works for you may not work for the next guy. Sorry I offended your sense of style. As good old Gary said, if you don't like my posts, you don't have to read them. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 01:06:49
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tt
It is very obvious that I was quoting you and I have read your message thoroughly as you have asked me to , both lines. Just what is it that I am meant to understand that you think I haven't and btw no apologies needed, what makes you think that you have 'offended' my style?
Unfortunately there is no way of knowing whether you want to read a post until after you have read it.
Anyway all I was trying to say is that we shouldn't frighten away newcomers to this forum. That's all.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
Edited by - mala on 12/12/2004 01:13:08 |
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n/a
374 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 02:35:40
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Interesting posts, everyone. Any input on this related topic?
I read a feature in a women's magazine yesterday entitiled, 'When Being Hugged Hurt'. It describes the past few agonising years spent by a woman suffering from something called, Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy (TMS possibly).
Here's how they describe RSD -
"RSD is a disease affecting the nervous system, where the brain wrongly tells the body it is experiiencing pain. The trigger can be anything from a twisted ankle or a stubbed toe, to a broken bone or surgery.
It is not a psychological problem - there are very real physical changes in the affected tissues, including swelling, extreme sensitivity to touch, muscle spasms, fatigue and skin rashes.
Pain is the major symptom of RSD. It is extremely intense, and out of all proportion to the original injury. In extreme cases, patients can become wheelchair-bound.
The earlier ttreatment is started, the greater chance there is of good results. Treatment differs for each case, but the most common includes physiotherpy and pain-relief drugs."
Elsewhere in the article, it mentions that 11500 people in the UK have RSD and the woman whose case is highlighted, mentions that psychotherapy helped her come to terms with her illness. Her trigger was spinal fusion, so presumably she had severe back pain.
I am considering emailing a response to this article - outlining that RSD could well be TMS. Any opinions? Any ideas of what I should include in the email?
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 09:49:48
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Mala,
The post I was referring to was my post of 12/9/04, under the topic of Herniated Disc. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 09:54:03
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| AnneG, off-hand it sounds like fibromyalgia to me-therefore a TMS equivalent. |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 09:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
AnneG, off-hand it sounds like fibromyalgia to me-therefore a TMS equivalent.
I totally agree on that
Kajsa |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 14:35:03
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I do think that as a group, and as individuals, we are strong enough in our beliefs that we can tolerate doubts as they are posed by "newbies." I say this more than anything as a reminder to myself, becauseI feel like a jerk for the flippant response I gave to "DiskPain," in which I said "the first thing I would do is not label myself disk pain."
I think my kneejerk reaction to his/her question, which was basically, "how long do you give this whole TMS theory a chance before you give up?", had much to do with the fact that this question gnawed away at me during the first six months of my own recovery, and even after that with the few "bad" flare-ups I had after being pain free for some time.
The thing for me and for all of us to remember is that this doubt is really nothing to fear because in the face of all the evidence that substantiates TMS, in the face of all of our very real healing experiences, it is ultimately insignificant. And in fact, that skeptic voice is actually our friend, that skeptic voice is what led the good Dr. to his initial discovery of TMS and it is what enabled each of us to doubt the dogma of traditional medicine and to look outside of its confines for real help and hope.
I think Baseball 65 offered a fitting analogy with his bible belt reference. I think that the newbies who come here voicing strident doubts and fears about TMS being "fake," are really struggling with thier fundamentalist belief in "real," medicine which is as real as any religion. Thinking on this, I was reminded of Benjamin Franklin, an agnostic "Deist," who was still a member of just about every church in Philadelphia.
I just recently read some of Franklin's autobiography - he was also the diplomat who convinced the King of France to back the American Revolution, and - in which he described his method of winning someone over to his side. Rather than confronting them with rhetoric, he used the Socratic method and asked them question after question until he'd accomplished the task of getting them to acknowledge the possibility that their belief was faulty and then he encouraged them to contemplate the benefits of his own.
I aspire to this sort of cool headed response to people who hold opinions differing from my own. I don't always succeed but it's a good aspiration to have. It's not always easy to be cool-headed, especially when you're working on the transformation from represser to expresser. But when trying to convine someone of something that appears to stand in direct opposition to everything they've learned is correct, a diplomatic and socratic approach is often more successful than a preachy, didactic one. And every time I have been able to calmly, consciously explain why/how I came to believe in the validity of Sarno's TMS theory and how I was able to implement it in my own healing program, it has helped me as much or more than the person I was attempting to help. It's a win-win.
I will try to remember that and my own two-year wilderness-wandering in between first hearing about and rejecting TMS and my later acceptance of it. I will try to be frank but not snide, "cruel to be kind" maybe but not cruel.That said, I would encourage any newbie (or old-bie) who comes here with doubts to express them in a respectful manner and to help us, help you by not antagonizing us unneccesarily. Let's all have an intelligent conversation. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 16:05:58
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Mala,
It would be helpful if you would be more precise as to which posts you find objectionable and voice your criticism in that thread. Then the newbie, who has been given a harsh reply, may be consoled with a gentler TMS viewpoint. Otherwise, you are casting a widenet, snareing some innocent fish. |
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floridaboy
40 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 17:09:35
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I am sure I am guilty of the topic of discussion as some of my posts were removed by "Big Brother" for being to offensive. My defense, simply stated is that some people just irritate me! I decided to "recognize my emotions" and told the person in the post my "true/unrepressed" feelings. In the words of the famous character RAMBO..."they drew first blood". When newbies attack the very people who are taking time to try to help...I tend to lose it...sorry. By the way, I know what you are thinking...that the tone of our "help" is probably to blame. In the case I am personally referring to...sorry, not the case. All veterans were kind, patient and nice in their posts. The newbie just got weird.
By the way, I do not disagree with the original idea...Recovery is a tough road. It would be nice if we could use a rating system for this board and archive in a special file all the great posts. Kinda like Amazon or epinions when "rate" a review as "Extremly helpful", Very Helpful, etc. That way when someone new asks a question that has already been addressed...we can say..."go to the "best of file"". Just a thought.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 18:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by floridaboy
I am sure I am guilty of the topic of discussion as some of my posts were removed by "Big Brother" for being to offensive.
The rules on this board have not changed. This is a moderated discussion on topics related to TMS.
I typically do not delete any posts, even those that stray off topic. If I do delete a post, it is usually because it contains a personal attack.
Heated discussions are welcome. Personal confrontations are not.
For those interested in flame wars, there are plenty of other places on the Internet to go. |
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Carol
91 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 18:26:07
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I want to first comment on RSD. I believe this was mentioned in one of Sarno's books, probably MBP since that is the one I use most. He mentioned it as probably a severe form of TMS if my memory serves me correctly.
Now, for the tone of posts. There was a time on this board when some people really did get quite personal and nasty in what I perceived as attacks on others. That time seems to be past, and for the most part the posts are very helpful and kind.
That having been said, I do think that one recent poster who was considering surgery was scared off, as he never signed back on the message after his comment that he felt that others were screaming (or something like that) at him. That was unfortunate because he sounded desperate, but upon re-reading the post I think it was a definate over-reaction on his part. I sure hope he gives the board another look, but I really don't think anyone intended to be insulting or nasty to him. And, bottom line, there isn't a thing any of us can do to dissuade him unless he is ready to give up on surgery. I think some people get addicted to things like surgery and physical therapy because of the attention and sympathy they get.
Carol |
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2004 : 01:45:16
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Logan
Logan
I must say that I highly appreciate your thoughts on this subject.
I agree with everything you say - and think that you present a
very mature and also constructive policy.
To be cruel is never a good way to “teach”.
We have to show respect. That does not mean that we will not
speak our minds.
Kajsa
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diverlarry
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2004 : 06:06:57
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Sometimes the best medicine down the road to healing is a good kick in the ass.
i would not call this a harsh reply. people need to hear all sides of a discussion. its up to the individual to decide whats good for them.
this reply may have not helped one person but may have greatly helped others. i remember going to my doctor and her telling me " there is nothing physcially wrong with you....you don't need to come here anymore....go out and do something " her "kick in the ass" got me going on the road to recovery. you can sit around feeling sorry for yourself or you can go out and do something. and who said this was going to be easy. i believe everyone should be free to express themselves here.
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Kajsa
Denmark
144 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2004 : 07:14:25
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Actually
You CAN give someone a kick in the ass without being cruel.
It is a difference between being cruel and being direct.
In my youth I had strange fever
for months - I did not know what is was.
It id not go away. I went from doctor to doctor. They took a lot of tests.
Everything was ok. But the fever continued -and I was very tired and sad.
So finally I went to a doctor who said.
Through away your fever thermometer!
I did . And the next day I was ok.
The fever came back a couple of times but I followed the doctors advice and
ignored -and it went away.
(I have often thought what would have happened with me if CFS was “invented” at that time and somebody given me the diagnosis)
The doctor was very kind but very direct. He never made me feel stupid but
he was firm and direct.
Of course it was TMS and I had “a TMS personality" even in those days
(I was only 20).
Kajsa
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Let's not scare off people
