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austini
29 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2008 : 18:34:01
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Hi gang,
Occasionally someone here has mentioned or asked about noises coming from their spine and/or joints. Typically an answer is given that this is nothing to be concerned about as it is just gas being released from the joints like when you pop your knuckles. However many times over the years explanations have been given by martial arts/yoga instructors and spine rehabilitation experts etc that there are two very different reasons for the noise.
If you get cracking etc noises from the spine during a certain movement and it doesn’t happen again for say 20 minutes or more then that is simply gas being released from the joints and is basically harmless. However if you get the same noises each time you do a particular spinal movement then this is due to instability (eg lax ligaments and degenerative changes) and can be considered a problem.
For example, in my case if I’m lying on my back with my knees bent and feet on floor and turn my legs to the right side there is a heap of crackling, grinding and clunking of the lower half of my spine. Sometimes this will result in increased peripheral numbness in my feet and various aches in the glute and lower back region. I could repeat this dozens of times one after another and the noises are just as noticeable each time. Hence this is NOT just harmless gas being released from the joints. A few medical practitioners/physiotherapists etc I have seen in recent years agree that it is due to lax ligaments and spinal instability.
Another example is if whilst standing I lift myself up off the floor on a bench edge and swing my legs from side to side you can hear by lower back cracking loudly (with every movement no matter how may times) across the other side of the room. For that matter even when I simply lift myself off the floor my entire lower back region cracks/clunks each time. Unfortunately most of my life (now 48) until recently I have had a bad habit of constantly cracking my own back and neck which has no doubt contributed to the problem.
I have been successful in overcoming most of the my TMS issues and pain but I’m still having a problem letting go of the constant noise and feeling of instability/looseness in my pelvic, SI and lower back region. This is partly due to the fact that from memory even Sarno and other TMS doctors explain the noise as being due to gas release from the joints. But knowing that this is not the case in my situation has made it difficult for me to let go of this structural issue completely.
So I would be interested to hear if other TMS’ers here have had a similar problem with spinal noises that are not simply gas release from the joint?
Thanks in advance – Gordon
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 19:35:52
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Do you really KNOW that your issues are not gas release, or have you just been told by people who believe this that it is the case?
I don't have the medical knowledge to support or contradict the premise (though speaking frankly I am quite skeptical of it), but in general just because you have been told X by some exercise & medical practitioners doesn't mean it is true. I was told by many MDs, chiros, PTs, etc. that RSI is the result of sitting at a computer too much, which I now know is in fact not true.
Anyway, if they truly think you have instability they ought to have some suggestions for fixing it. You could try those and see what happens If they have no suggestions then you would have little to lose by treating it as TMS.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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austini
29 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 19:50:46
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Hi Armchair...,
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.
A number of different practitioners have said that the amount of noise in the lower back and how easily it is elicited is uncommon based on the many patients they had seen over the years. So I suppose I'm still falling victim to feeling that my problem may have a structural basis due to it being supposeably somewhat rare. The feeling of instability through the pelvic, SI and lower back region also reinforces these thoughts.
Thanks - Gordon |
Edited by - austini on 04/20/2008 19:54:16 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 20:25:03
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Who cares what the noise is. I can make my toe and my wrist 'crack' any time I want by making certain movements. So what? It doesn't hurt so I don't care. I just ignore it.
I have had a habit all my life of cracking my knuckles. My experience is that if you 'crack' the same joint enough times it becomes more susceptible to making noise.
Nevertheless none of this really concerns me. It is benign so I just ignore it. It's tough enough to ignore painful symptoms. It should be easier to ignore harmless noises. |
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Inferno
15 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 00:16:58
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This is exactly what I've been struggling with now for over 2 years, namely, the snapping, clicking, popping, cracking that I've felt in my knee. Pain is one thing, but the various noises, as well as the accompaning feeling, tends to make one focus on the pain (in my case my knee). I know for a fact it is not "gases", but I surmise my tendons crossing or snapping over bone. What really makes me struggle with accepting TMS is that the popping, cracking sensations came soon on the heals of the onset of pain. Before that my knee never made any demonstrable noises. Now it clicks, and snaps on practically every step.
In defense of TMS, an orthopedic doctor ruled out any significant knee problem via MRI (except I do have a thickened IT Band). I also did not have any dramatic knee injury to justify the pain that I feel. I also, I might add, fit the TMS profile.
All that said, I have a theory that TMS can cause joints, back, etc...to make these noises. Perhaps the Tendons, ligaments, muscles, etc.. are altered in such a way that they don't really work as "smoothly". The term "tension", and "stiffness" are often used to describe TMS. Perhaps the muscles are too "tight", which in turn causes "normal" body motions to "get out of wack". I know I'll catch hell for intimating anything along the lines of a "muscular imbalance", but couldn't it be possible that TMS can cause something to that effect? It may be harmless (ie- do no damage), but in a constant state could cause pain.
If you do a search on this forum, you will find many people complaining about an increase in joint and spine noise that accompanied the pain. I've noticed this particularly with Carpel Tunnel and neck issues. If this is true, I wish that Sarno would have addressed this in his book. It really makes sense that if TMS does cause and "altered state" in muscles, tendons, etc...; then does'nt it make sense that it would also alter the "performance" of those tissues? Actually, I do recall Sarno mentioning how TMS in the shoulder can cause "winging", produced from constant muscle tighteness or tension.
Food for thought. |
Edited by - Inferno on 04/21/2008 00:36:48 |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 07:31:21
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I would say that 90% or more of my patients that present with neck pain (and plenty of others with other symptoms) complain of clicking and popping noises when they turn their necks. In my opinion, this is a perfectly normal phenomenon that is only noticed by people with neck pain because they are focusing on their necks. I'm turning my neck right now and if I really pay attention: "crunch crunch crunch"... It is very similar to many people with tinnitus in that it is normal to have some constant noise, but that it is only noticed by people who obsess over the sound in their ears.
A definition of anxiety could be hypersensivity to normal bodily functions and sensations, which are perceived as abnormal. This falls into that category.
Naturally, you should consult with your doctor before making any medical decisions. |
Edited by - drziggles on 04/21/2008 07:32:32 |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 11:58:12
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I fixated on multiple body 'noise' for a while. Air , gas, water release, etc. It's all natural. Some people even have creaky knees and joints(which may be a real indicator of something). Some people have naturally noisy joints. For instance, my right knee clicks every time I squat. But if I remember, it's done that since I was a kid, and never gave me problems.
Bodies make noises is my point. Tension on muscles can makes joints 'pop' more often than if they were in a relaxed state. When my TMS was severe , my hip and socket were tight all the time. I could crack my whole hip to the point that someone across the room could hear a 'clunk' sound that made their faces grimace like I broke something. But if I spent 30 minutes in a hot tub and my muscles eased. I couldn't do it. S what changed? Did my injury get healed miraculously by hot water? No, the muscle tension eased and gases dispersed.
SO this is all in the confines of muscle tension pulling on joints.Plus, and I'm assuming, if a 'bone on bone' injury was going on, you would be in a load of pain, and I don't think you would hear it coming. If the noise level determined the severity of injury, then someone hearing 'cracking' in their spine wouldn't be walking and truly paralyzed.
Don't stress over it. TMS get our attention in so many ways. Picture how some Schizophrenics are convinced there is something buried in their skin, or some classes of severe OCD people pull their hair out, or body dismorphic syndromes. Not comparing you to that, lol. Just reminding you the obvious, that the mind can work against you in even minor 'delusions' or obsessions.
Hope that helps.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 14:57:10
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Speaking of bone on bone, I think it was Michelle a while back that had hip surgery and had a TON of pain afterwards, crazy pain. They couldn't find anything wrong for a while but eventually they realized that something wasn't sitting right, fixed it, and she was a lot better almost right away.
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4205&SearchTerms=hip
Popping is pretty irrelevant and easy to ignore when compared to something like that.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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austini
29 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 16:52:32
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Thanks very much for your replies.
In terms of joint noises most of my body including neck, shoulders, sternum, knees and hip etc pops, clunks, grates etc. They have done so since my teen years (now 48). However except for my lower back (and occasionally neck) none of this has ever caused any real pain or any concern whatsoever. Other than my lower back and SI region all joints feel very stable.
Also because the pain does not move around it draws me into thinking there may be a structural problem. The L2-L3 vertebrae is constantly tender to touch (and very tight with restricted range), the left SI joint feels very uncomfortable like it is out of position and the left middle and outer glute region often aches.
But I fit the classic TMS profile in most other aspects. So thanks for setting me straight in that really compared to a lot of people around my problems are pretty minor. In fact my poor mother who is in her 80's has a hip joint that is basically flopping around in its socket, severe osteoarithis in hands and knees, no arches left in her feet just to name a few. Yet she experiences ZERO pain to the amazement of her doctor. Plus she is always on the move doing housework, cooking and gardening etc nearly all day long. She has to actually walk with her feet turned out so her hip and knee don't give way. Otherwise she uses a cane or walking device when she goes out. As for back pain she has never had any and still has great flexibility when bending.
The huge difference between my mother and me is that she only ever worries about everyone other than herself whereas I mostly tend to worry about and focus on myself.
So time for me to mentally toughen up. Sometimes one just needs to put things into the public domain such as this forum to see things more clearly.
Thanks again - Gordon
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Edited by - austini on 04/22/2008 17:05:27 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 17:17:36
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quote:
all joints feel very stable.
I actually don't really understand what you mean about your joints not feeling stable. What does that mean exactly, and could it also, possibly, be something you notice only because you're focused on the area?
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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austini
29 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 17:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
quote:
all joints feel very stable.
I actually don't really understand what you mean about your joints not feeling stable. What does that mean exactly, and could it also, possibly, be something you notice only because you're focused on the area? ...
Hi Armchair...,
I suppose unlike my lower back and SI joint which I can actually feel moving in and out of position other joints feel quite robust and strong. Some people including those which suffer from hypermobility have joints that feel unstable and can phyicially dislocate etc. So even though there is instability in my spine it is not throughout my body like those with hypermobility syndrome and EDS etc.
Cheers - gordon |
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patils
72 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2009 : 17:13:22
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Hi Austin and all,
I am experiencing and worried about same snapping and popping pain in my neck and shoulder area. Mine is also not gas release case because each time I am getting same noise and worried that all this noise is because of structural abnormality.
Is this is beacause of structural abnormality or because of TMS.?
Sachin |
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Spinal Noise – Gas Release Vs Instability?
