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mjwebb05
24 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2008 : 16:16:22
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Hello,
I am new to TMS/Sarno, etc. but just wanted to take an honest poll: has anyone on here who has had success using the TMS programs had pain that, before they found this program, DID actually improve somewhat from conservative physical treatments such as Physical Therapy?? That is the one area in which I am doubting that I am a TMS sufferer when I look at my situation (4 years of low back and hip pain since age 23)....intensive manual Physical Therapy with a daily stretching/strengthening exercise regiment at home HAS helped lessen my pain over the past 5 months. I have also seen a lessening from implementing just some of the TMS/AOS program techniques and reading the books (Sarno, Brady so far)....could I be a combination case, or is it common to have had a "partial recovery" using Physical Therapy before getting to the root of it with TMS?
Please don't yell at me for bringing in a physical method of treatment to this discussion board! Just trying to figure this out...! |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 16:41:33
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Yes, it's common.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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mjwebb05
24 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 16:46:48
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| Great! Thats good to hear.....anyone else agree with armchair? |
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bhushan
India
16 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 23:39:21
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My first post on this forum!
Background: 4 years of gradual 'RSI', pain and occasional tingling in fingers (especially in right hand). Physicians diagnosis: Thoracic outlet symdrome.
I had undergone physical therapy (trigger point and myofascial release), it has helped as I feel my arms,neck shoulder and back are now more stronger and mobile along with less pain.However, the most relief I have got has been by following Dr. Sarno's approach( reading his books, success stories at TMS help, talking to my mind etc). Since 4 days of starting this approach, I am feeling better.I am slowly overcoming my fear of typing. I have the typed above in one go with little pain, earlier it would have been nightmarish! |
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campbell28
80 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 04:00:42
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I had RSI for 4 years and tried all kinds of different therapies - physio, massage, osteopathy, alaexander technique, acupuncture, pilates. I also did stretches every day. At the time I felt these things helped because I was so much worse if I didn't do them. But none of them actually 'fixed' me long-term.
I would go for a massage, say, and feel much better for about a week / 2 weeks. Then it would all come back. Over a year from when I left my job I did 'improve' to the extent that I wasn't in such constant pain.
But I didn't really get better until I ditched all the physical therapy. It really does tie you to the idea that your problem is physical. After I read MBP I had three really good weeks then relapsed, so I went back to doing stretches and Alexander every day. Then the Alexander started getting less and less effective: I used to do it once a day and it would relieve the symptoms for a few hours: eventually I was doing it 5 or 6 times a day.
It was only when I stopped EVERYTHING that I really began to recover. The trouble with the physical stuff, even if it does help - which of course it does, because the symptoms ARE REAL! - it adds to the fear. I became dependent on it, because I was so scared of what would happen if I stopped. I knew that it made my symptoms better - however temporarily. It was a real wrench to give it up.
But I kind of thought - hang on, I've been doing all these stuff for a couple of years. I stretch and do pilates every day, I see an osteopath or whoever once a week - and I'm still not better! They haven't fixed me! If after TWO YEARS of this stuff I'm not actually 'better' - is it actually doing me any good? I used to go through so much stress and fear if I couldn't get an appointment straigt away because I knew I couldn't fix the pain myself.
So I do believe the physical stuff helped me. The symptoms of TMS are real, so of course they can be soothed / improved with physical therapy. But, at least in my experience, the only thing that has actually, finally , got me out of the nightmare and kicked the symptoms away has been treating it as SOLELY an emotional problem.
and also it feels brilliant to know I can do this myself (well, and with the help of a counsellor). But I don't need to fork out for treatments, rely on other people to relieve the pain, feel terrified if the symptoms return.
i do really believe it is best to bin all the physical stuff - at least it was for me - but like i said, it was a big deal for me to give it up.... |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 10:18:02
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quote:
The symptoms of TMS are real, so of course they can be soothed / improved with physical therapy. But, at least in my experience, the only thing that has actually, finally , got me out of the nightmare and kicked the symptoms away has been treating it as SOLELY an emotional problem.
campbell summed it up!!!
In more detail to my experience, I had a lot of partial help from various physical therapies, but after one to six months, most of them had to be done more and more frequently to work and then stopped helping.
So it really isn't so much a partial recovery as a mitigation of symptoms that are ultimately recreated and perpetuated by the mind. No physical treatment on earth can permanently help you when your mind can create new symptoms in a matter of minutes or hours.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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sundse
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 21:49:13
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| I think a lot of TMS symptoms are caused by hypoxia (i.e. oxygen starvation) that can be mitigated by physical therapy. Physical therapy really helped me... even though the main problem is the mind, and its ability to shut off blood flow. When I did PT for one joint and "fixed" it, the problem would move to another joint. I had PT for all the joints, one by one. Then I thought, "Ha! There are no more joints!". Then I started getting headaches. My point is that PT can help a particular problem but it does not cure TMS; TMS will find another outlet for the pain. |
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bestcaddy
27 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 10:21:13
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| Just like the chiro, I felt great when I left and the pain was back the next day. this was probaby the hardest concept of sarno's for me to embrace, once I did it I finally started to heal for real. Just remember this, if Sarno is right, lots of people are out of work, including PT, Chiro people, and drug people, billions will be lost. that is why we must continue to spread this knowledge to each other!!! |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 11:42:46
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Even Dr. Sarno does not dispute that PT (specifically ultrasonic massage) can improve symptoms.
Nevertheless he stopped prescribing it for his patients because it unconsciously reinforces the belief that the pain is due to a physical problem. |
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mjwebb05
24 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 19:09:03
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Thanks, everyone. Your posts are helping me confirm my path. However, I want to be more specific: has anyone found benefits from physical therapy to target muscle imbalances? I.E. a targeted strengthening AND stretching program to bring muscles back into proper balance from front to back, side to side of the body?
I still think the mind body stuff works, just curious....
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 08:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by mjwebb05
Thanks, everyone. Your posts are helping me confirm my path. However, I want to be more specific: has anyone found benefits from physical therapy to target muscle imbalances?
If you are thinking that "muscle imbalances" are responsible for your symptoms then your thoughts are in the physical realm and this is contradictory to TMS treatment. |
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pmazzdog
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 09:07:26
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Hi Mel-
I went through the same thoughts you are having. It is very hard to let go.
I sense you want to believe the mind/body explanation but you fear letting go of what has gotten you to this point of improvement.
I think many of us saw some improvement from therapies. I did also, but not anything sustainable or where I could forget my pain. Not until I let go completely. Even the first few months when there were setbacks I would think physical first....and then calm down and go through my mantra. Now I get sore like everyone else and it just is that. Sorenes and it will be gone tomorrow and is an afterthought. Whereas before it would be a uh-oh moment and waiting for the agony to follow and the whole chain of events would follow. That is no way to live.
Paul
ps we chatted on LTBP |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 09:38:25
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Stretching and strengthening may be good for you (this is a somewhat controversial topic on the form as there are references both in and out of Sarno that say that strechting isn't necessary), but doing "stretches and strengthening" during TMS treatment undermines the belief that the improvement is due to psychological factors. This is why Sarno stopped prescribing PT to his TMS patients.
You need to stop all treatments, at least temporarily, so that you can concentrate on TMS treatment. (This process can be gradual if you don't want to do so abruptly -- it took me a few weeks to totally rely on TMS.)
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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chester
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 12:22:55
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I'm kinda 50/50 on this. I went through PT, and agree that any gains were placebo.
However... Right now, I'm going through a spell in which I get butt/leg soreness every day sitting at work in mid-afternoon. Sometimes I can't get comfortable at all, so I have to get up and move around. Unfortunately, I can't spare 10 minutes to go walking around the building, and I've found that a 45-60 second stretch will give me about a half hour of relief, and let me sit up straight and look professional at my desk.
I know that this pain is conditioning, probably work-related in some mental fashion. My only other option for pain relief is Tylenol or Motrin, and I really try to stay away that stuff as much as possible. So while some might argue that my stretching is holding back my progress, I view it as another form of temporary pain relief that is sparing my gastro system from the side effects of those pills. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 14:31:48
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quote:
Originally posted by chester
... I've found that a 45-60 second stretch will give me about a half hour of relief, and let me sit up straight and look professional at my desk ...
I don't see anything wrong with this. Let's face it -- as much as we must believe that our bodies are strong and adaptive machines, they are designed for motion. The whole reason we walk upright is so we can run longer distances to find food. Of course, the distance from the den to the kitchen is not what evolution had in mind.
Stretching is not a bad thing. Dogs and cats do it all the time. It's natural. If I'm sitting for extended periods at my computer, I will certainly stretch out my arms and shoulders now and then. It feels good.
There is a fine line between exercising and stretching for our overall health and enjoyment, and for relief of chronic symptoms. If we do the latter, we undermine the treatment process. |
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chester
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 08:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
There is a fine line between exercising and stretching for our overall health and enjoyment, and for relief of chronic symptoms. If we do the latter, we undermine the treatment process.
But here's my question - how else to relieve those symptoms? Aren't painkillers really just another form of physical relief, because they address physical, not emotional, pain?
In my case, I know that stretching is not a cure, because the symptoms always come back. I think it's analogous to taking a pill - it's simply temporary pain relief. And to me, medication is far less preferable.
I'm not trying to be argumentative - the last thing I want to do is undermine the TMS treatment process. I'm just trying to figure out what is the best option when pain needs to be addressed. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 09:11:29
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quote:
Originally posted by chester
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
There is a fine line between exercising and stretching for our overall health and enjoyment, and for relief of chronic symptoms. If we do the latter, we undermine the treatment process.
But here's my question - how else to relieve those symptoms? Aren't painkillers really just another form of physical relief, because they address physical, not emotional, pain?
In my case, I know that stretching is not a cure, because the symptoms always come back. I think it's analogous to taking a pill - it's simply temporary pain relief. And to me, medication is far less preferable.
I'm not trying to be argumentative - the last thing I want to do is undermine the TMS treatment process. I'm just trying to figure out what is the best option when pain needs to be addressed.
Painkillers are fine as long as you have the mindset that you are just relieving the symptoms.
If you have the same mindset about the stretches, then it should be OK. To reinforce this you can try to think psychologically while doing the stretches. |
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chester
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 10:50:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Painkillers are fine as long as you have the mindset that you are just relieving the symptoms.
If you have the same mindset about the stretches, then it should be OK. To reinforce this you can try to think psychologically while doing the stretches.
Thanks, Dave. That what I'm trying to do. If I don't progress the way I hope to, I'll certainly reconsider the stretching aspect. |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 11:19:11
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Hi mjwebb
I just took my shoes off. I read your post and the string and than I took my shoes off to look at the soles.
I know from the time I spent in the 'system' that one of my legs is longer than the other...a LOT longer, but I didn't remember which one, because I have recovered from TMS.
It's the left. My left shoe has virtually no tread on it, whilst the right looks like it's a week old. I haven't paid any attention to it for years, but when I read your post, I thought about it. I am still a gimp. People like to tease me and make fun of the sort of rolling shuffle I walk with. It's like a wagon with egg shaped wheels. Even I laugh when they spoof me.
My hips are tilted at, what the doctors who I worked with ,considered to be an extreme angle. I can vaguely remember the picture.
My DC gave me a heel lift at one point and I was 'cured' for awhile (Placebo...I liked and believed the DC). Later, I was in Physical Therapy with a Wonderful staff and ALMOST recovered enough to where I thought I might avoid surgery. Didn't quite make it though.
TMS exists to keep you focused on the body. Thinking about things like imbalance...even using words like that , will serve the same purpose as the TMS. I assume if someone is imbalanced than there are admonitions to follow to attain and maintain balance? I couldn't just grab one Dumbbell and start curling?
Since it's caused by a localized diminished blood flow, Sarno mentions in the divided mind that even Freud who documented it (but didn't name it) noticed that the symptoms in the parts involved responded to "massage and repetition of the painful activity".
The last time I went to PT was in the chronic pain center. We used to rate our pain (you know the drill)I'd arrive a 7 or 8, be down to a 1 or 2 during PT, leave the place a 3 or 4 and be a 9 again by dinnertime. That was actually one of the easiest parts of the puzzle to fit into TMS after reading Healing Back Pain.
I don't think there is anything wrong with working out. I think about it all the time, and maybe one of these days I'll get around to it.
..but seriously folks. If you have TMS and you think or credit any of your success to the PT, you might get a placebo response (like I did) and it will come back.
there's my 14 cents.
-Baseball65 aka Marc aka piggy aka recoveredTMS sufferer |
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campbell28
80 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 10:09:48
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"has anyone found benefits from physical therapy to target muscle imbalances? I.E. a targeted strengthening AND stretching program to bring muscles back into proper balance from front to back, side to side of the body?"
I totally thought I had some kind of imbalance. The osteopath I saw said my sacrum was 'out' and popped it back in place. Quite a few therapists I saw pointed out that I was ever so slightly tilted to one side. I got very obssessed with being 'tilted' and all the Pilates and stuff I did was designed to keep my body in balance.
That's one thing I still struggle with: I catch myself thinking ' ooh am I tipped over? do i need to change my position to balance myself out?' and I have to tell myself to snap out of it.
but, as baseball's story shows - it actually doesn't make any difference whatsoever. your mind picks something it can use as a distraction and it uses it. 'imbalance' is quite a good one because it seems like a sensible reason to have pain: if one thing is out then it affects everything else and blah blah blah. its all b****cks. I just spent three days digging, weeding, planting potatoes and running very fast down a hill. whatever 'imbalance' i have, and im sure everybody has one, is probably still there, but the difference is I don't really care any more...
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mjwebb05
24 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 11:24:45
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| This discussion is great....thanks everyone for your input! |
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Physical Therapy Partially Help Anyone?
