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sborthwick
87 Posts |
 Posted - 03/31/2008 : 12:44:07
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I am finding this really hard. I have gone back to working with Sarno's pscychologist and my equivalent of anxiety has come on extremely strong. Last week, I had 2 sessions wtih the therapist -
and oh boy, I was in a complete tailspin.
I called Sarno who told me this is completely normal.....and a good sign!! The unconscious is increasing the anxiety to keep me from getting at the real problem - the underlying rage. He told me to continue my meds and to continue the work.
Well - that's great I guess.....but ignoring anxiety is very very hard. When I am in it, I cannot do anything else except worry. It is a very effective distraction. I think - better than pain. If I get twinges in my back now - that doesn't bother me so of course they go away. How do you do this with the anxiety? |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2008 : 13:58:33
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Wish I could give you an answer. I myself in mostly pain free. I don't even think of pain or really have pain anymore. Whatever anxiety is there it is deep seeded. Mine comes out in nervous tics, eye twitches mostly, but they're minimal. As soon as I journal hardcore again my anxiety level goes up, I can feel it.
So I'm kinda of in this limbo where I don't really need to journal for pain , but do for anxiety? Strange. Exercise helps mine, but only on the surface. I would say(for you and for me)to keep doing TMS work until the anxiety is 'normal'.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
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Dor
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2008 : 14:02:51
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You float through the anxiety - don't fight it. The more you worry and try to fight or run away from it the more it will stick. You begin by understanding that anxiety is basically caused by adrenalin coursing through your body - the old fight or flight response. And yes, it can feel like mental symptoms, not just pounding heart or sweating. Then you tell yourself that you know what it is, that it can't hurt you, you are not going crazy, and that it will pass. It will pass with enough acceptance of what it is, taking away the fear, and floating through. Remember - float, don't fight. Try to find a catch phrase that works for you - like - let go. The more you hold tight to the anxiety out of the fear of it, the more you feel it. So, let go. I know that sounds simplistic, but say those words a few times, or ones that work for you, and you will feel a bit of a release. Most people with anxiety think they have to hold onto themselves every minute or they will break apart. Actually, the opposiste is true. It is the holding on so tightly (the fear) that keeps it there. I have been there, I do understand. As I suggested to another member of this board, purchase the books by Dr. Claire Weeks, a once leading expert in her field and one whose work is used extensively today. Is that not after all what Sarno speaks of only in different wording - letting go of the fear, letting go of the past, moving through it, and carrying on despite it!
Dor |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2008 : 18:08:51
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IMO anxiety is very difficult to ignore and has to be dealt with in some way. I posted my techniques in your previous thread. Have you tried them?
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 07:54:46
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Thanks folks. I don't have any kind of racing heart or panic symptoms - just a constant state of fear and constant worrying over things - I blow things out of proportion with negative thinking.
I am doing Lucinda Bassetts tapes along with seeing Sarno's therapist. When I have a session with his therapist - the anxiety level is nuts. I literally worry and blow things out of proportion for the next few days. My poor boyfriend finds it really hard. Most of my worrying is around our relationship. I also have a very tricky situation at work - which I dwell on alot.
Sarno said this is very normal and a good sign. My question is - does the mind ever really stop doing that. This could take forever - and just be extremely uncomfortable for a long period of time.
I guess I am fearful of the anxiety which is feeding into it.
I have absolutely no pain at all.....which is great. I had back pain for 12 years and now nothing for the last 2 years. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 08:58:30
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quote:
When I am in it, I cannot do anything else except worry.
On second look at this thread, I noticed this. I am guessing you're just trying to express the difficulty of breaking the cycle, but notice that you're using fairly fatalistic language here.
You CAN break the cycle. You just might not have figured out how yet.
Somehow I just recalled the scene in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (3rd book), where Arthur is about to be killed by a rockslide, but then sees his suitcase and forgets to fall and ends up flying. When he's tempted to think about gravity (a sure ticket back to the ground), he starts thinking about tulips, and a whole lot of other things, determinedly distracting himself from gravity.
Maybe anything, even tulips, works as a cycle-breaker as long as we are determined enough!
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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hematite
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 09:10:51
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I wrote a lot at the beginning of Feb re: the miraculous change in my life from being out of pain. But the truth is that there is so much anxiety I'm stuck, sometimes, in a different way. But it's a huge improvement, knowing it is all in the mind. To get ride of anxiety, I'm going for the spiritual solution, which seems to me to be 1) give everythign to the universe to solve on my behalf, 2) Get busy helping others and putting the welfare of others ahead of my own (not in a sick codependent way, in a loving way)- I've been told unless I do #2, #1 won't work 3) Make restitution to those I have harmed, even if they've harmed me, unless it will make the other person more miserable to do so.
With those three stages, amazing things have unfolded for me, including TMS recovery. And i'm just feeling the anxiety, making friends with it, seeing what will happen if i embrace it like i embrace joy, peace of mind etc.
But the spiritual approach I've been using is getting rid of my need to worry about myself so much. I feel like my self fixation was the problem and this is totally getting rid of all my problems for me, so if i keep doing this, eventually i'm either going to get so comfortable with anxiety i enjoy it or the anxiety is going to go away!
I also use that kick ass tms journal someone had floating around somewhere. That's priceless!
Good luck to everyone who has come to this place. I was in bed on and off for 8 years - mostly on, with pain 8 -10, and millions of doctors, a neurostimulator implant trial, pills, treatments, p.t., and a lot of being scolded by drs who were angry i couldn't get better. Whatever life i have back i owe to sarno and whoever got this site together. i don't go on it much anymore but i do feel pretty freakin grateful knowing that i can come back every month or so and share that things, even 2 months in, are a world of different! |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 09:24:20
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Hematite,
Interesting stuff - sounds like the 9th and 10th step to me! They are priceless. I am having a hard time incoroporating Sarno with that. Especially since seeing his therapist is making me dwell even more on myself - sort of goes against the program if you know what I mean.
Any thoughts? |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 09:27:41
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Armchair,
Really good point! I have a very defeatist attitude....I don't think I really saw that. That means that I am afraid of the anxiety. I guess that is just the same as being afraid of the pain. I stopped being afraid of the pain and the pain went away.
I am going to stop being afraid of the anxiety too! After all, it is not the end of the world. So I worry!!! - who cares!!!
Thanks so much for seeing that in my post. I will take the same approach as the pain.
Sarno still said I should take anti-depressants to take the edge off. i look forward to comign off them.
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hematite
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 09:52:12
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Yes,
I am in a program called RA. It is a solution based 12 step program. It breaks down the program to what the pioneers did that worked so well. When I looked at it, after going through the big book, I realized that they did three things 1) gave everything to god - (I prefer universe as I am sort of a non dualist), 2) Got busy helping others a lot. These 2 together get at the root of the problem, self centered fear. 3) I went through the fourth through 9th once. And then I just stay in 10-12 now.. My self preoccupation is diminishing and finally I feel relief.
I am learning to be my natural self, once and for all. I don't need to not be angry if I'm angry. I give anger to the universe and if I'm still angry, I trust in that. Then I resolutely turn my thoughts to someone I can help. I'm O.K. with being angry, but as the result of following this plan of action, I'm less and less angry every day.
I don't know what recovery will look like for me day to day. For a while I felt directed to take psych meds. Now, not so much. Tomorrow, maybe again. I still go to therapy once per month. I love all things western, alternative, etc. How my problems are being solved is not up to me.
I spent 21 years in 12 step programs and the disease just shifted until it finally went into my body in the form of pain. I'm getting so much relief in my life in so many areas from 1 year in Recoveries Anonymous that I feel only gratitude. There are other people who get these basic principles right away in other 12 step programs, I just did not.
I think feeling my anxiety, rage, etc, is all good. And yet, I don't have to live in these states all day long, and by helping others I often get the strength or some relief to move on in my day. But whether the feeling state gets resolved - that's in the universe's hands. Sometimes it doesn't and I end up watching 6 hours of television. Who cares! Eventually, as I rely less on myself to solve my problems, when I ask for help, it seems to come quicker. I'm tired of having to solve my own problems. It was exhausting. That includes solving or denying my feelings. That includes fixing relationship problems, personality problems, health problems, family problems.
It's still a fixation with solving my problems. And that, for me, is why I'm in a 12 step program. I never got the "putting the welfare of others ahead of my own" business before recoveries anonymous. I thought prayer and meditation were enough. But the program didn't work with just that, not for me.
TMS is for me a physical manifestation of the disease of self centeredness. And that disease is rooted in rage, anger, and anxiety.
The relief comes as the feelings are transformed. But just like if I won the lottery, I'm more trusting in what the universe delivers in my day. Oh, here's anxiety, I think I'll be with that and see what it feels like to just feel it. Same thing for rage, etc. I don't even see anything wrong with any part of life, even the self centeredness itself, all beautiful, to me. And yet, I enjoy life a lot more with it out of the way, so there's the paradox and what keeps me following these instructions.
I speak for no one but myself. There are probably a thousand different reasons why people end up with TMS. I actually don't care how I ended up with it if I'm getting relief from what was behind my TMS, which is self centered fear, rage, anger - the works!
Binging, drinking, pain disorders - these were all symptoms. I'm seeking a spiritual solution outside myself because I don't want the tms thing to go, only to end up a gambler or some other manifestation of the selfishness.
That's a long reply to your short question!
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 11:07:21
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Hematite,
OH MY GOSH! I am also in a similar program - involving the steps. I too know that the root of all my problems is self centerdness. I have found tremendous relief in thinking of others - putting others first. But - this is the conflict I have with Sarno's program:
If I go to his therapist once a week - where I sit in the rage that she tries to bring out in me from my childhood and life's pressures - how is that good for the root problem - self centerdness????
This is what I am stuck on. I know how all my self centered fear is much improved when I turn my thoughts to others/go help others - it takes me out of the worry adn self pity. However, I still am experiencing a lot of fear. Sarno's "cure" is to face the repressed emotions - really get into them so that the brain stops creating distractions - like pain and anxiety etc.
Somehow - I am still missing how you integrate Sarno's approach with your 12 step program?
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hematite
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 11:38:59
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I am not supposed to be any further along than I am. if I need to rage, if the universe has directed me to a therapist to rage, then I will f'ing rage.
Resentments are the number one offender. So what. I'm not in charge of how they get removed. A lot of times I may need to revisit the scene of the crime, cry, go on and on about it. But be my natural self.
I will sometimes lie in bed and love my resentments. Thinking there's something wrong with any of it is saying I know better than the universe.
In December, I was on the ninth step. I got some bad but well intentioned advice from a person in the program, went forth and made an amends and it was a disaster.
I couldn't call my sponsor, I couldn't even deal with the program. I had no willingness to do the ninth step. My sponsor suggested, "That's just fine! Just pray for the willingness to work the program. Pray for the willingness to do the ninth step and to call me."
It boiled down to just that. From Nov to Jan I walked around pissed off. If someone asked me how I was doing I'd say, "I feel persecuted!" It was almost fun. See, even though the program says I can't afford resentments, it also says I can't lift them and I'm not in charge of how they get lifted and when. So that 2 months of pissed off really wore it out of me.
So what happened next was I got the flu. And it was a bad one. 8 years ago I was diagnosed with an illness that kills like a huge percentage of people who get it. It's a pretty fatal thing. I survived but anyway, my only symptom was the head flu. So when I get the flu it's usually kind of horrible. Well, I got it bad this time, with no fever, nothing to convince me this wasn't that horrible thing coming back.
I was still pissed, still lying in bed hating about 3 - 6 people, the worst of all was at the top of my amends list. In the middle of the third day of the flu an RA woman called to say hi and I was uite miserable and said, "I don't want to f'ing make amends to that bastard. And she said, "I agree it's hard. But resentments have the power to kill me." It dawned on me that I could literally be dying of this horrible illness again and if there was the slightest correlation with resentments and I couldn't get over the resentment I decided to try making amends as an experiment because it worked well for others.
Well, that was all the willingness I needed. I read a letter to the that same woman that I used as my vehicle for the amends. (the person is violent and hates me, so I figured, a letter is best) and had the willingness to send it.
Within 1 week of sending the letter, the major health restoration took place. And, for the first time in decades I did not fear that person (a sibling). I owned all of my part and it felt like I had told my truth, that I had added to his troubles significantly and I could see my part, finally.
Could I have gotten to this place without walking around pissed off for two or three months? I doubt it. I am to be my natural self and if that's kind of ugly, then so be it. I rely on God to change me, through meds, doctors, fourth steps, therapy, crying rages, the tms help forum, etc, etc.
I used to think all the "right" behaviors and feelings fit into this tiny box and everything else outside of that I needed to watch out for. Always editing and controlling so that I didn't take a step out of the box.
Forget it. That didn't work for me. Complete dependence upon the universe did. That, and getting busy helping others. (as I said before.)
If you're pissed off, here's hoping you can enjoy a little of it!
I'm not trying to save myself from myself any more. If it worked, then great. But it didn't. It just added fuel to the fire.
Hope this is in any way helpful!
p.s...
I am going to be speaking at the RA meeting this Sat nine am central time. It's a phone meeting. If you'd like to listen in, you can write to me at
tmshelpplease@gmail.com and I'll give you the number and pass code to get on the meeting.
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 11:45:01
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that was incredible! -
Have to run to a business meeting - will post more when I get back
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 12:19:06
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Ok - I am back.
Hematite ....I completely agree with you as I live in 10,11 adn 12 myself now - the best remedy for feeling better has been to put others before myself.
However..I still feel that this conflicts with Sarno's theory. His theory is to constantly switch to dwell in what is bothering you - this he says will finally teach the brain and will switch off anxiety and pain syndromes. The program teaches us to pray and to switch ones thoughts to others.
Don't you see this as a conflict?
The therapist told me that I am terrified of feeling my feelings and have learnt to repress. Well - that is not surprsing since the program teaches me that resentment is the number one offender....so of course, I move away from my resentments when I get them.
It sounds like when you sat in resentments for a while, you felt really really angry and sick. Sarno tells us to constantly think of what is bothering us. I am really confused. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 12:24:15
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I used to think all the "right" behaviors and feelings fit into this tiny box and everything else outside of that I needed to watch out for. Always editing and controlling so that I didn't take a step out of the box.
Hematite - can you expand on the paragraph above? |
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campbell28
80 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 12:26:29
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| hematite those were some really really helpful, thought-provoking posts - thanks. |
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hematite
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 14:42:09
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Re: Sarno and the Big book, You know, everything is open to interpretation.
I didn't mention this before but maybe 1 1/2 years ago, I was at a spiritual class, eastern stuff, and the teacher said this guy got enlightened by loving every thought he ever had. So I took that one sentence, which my teacher later told me I took completely out of context, and started lying in bed (I had a lot of time on my hands, in that I was disabled from pain) and loving my rage, loving the pain, loving the fact that I couldn't seem to find the right guy, loving my paranoia, loving my troubles with men, etc.
Things started to change within a few months. The pain even improved a little. But within 6 months I had a boyfriend, I was on a medication for paranoia (which, by the way, I don't need to take anymore but will again if i ever need to) and had found a program that helped me stop constantly trying to work on myself and solve all my problems.
But seeing how loving all of it worked, I think maybe this has helped color my perspective as I continue to recover. I think a lot of misconceptions re: what the universe wanted for me were gone. I'm not a saint. And I am not sure the pioneers really thought it was bad to get angry. Maybe, just like any other area, but maybe more important than other areas, important to trust the resolution of my anger to the universe completely. But I think powerlessness is beautiful.
I used to be a performer and i find something oddly lovely about the other performers I know and their full on I WANT TO GET DRUNK AND STONED attitudes. I think they are at least honest with themselves, and that can go a long way with God. They seem to lack the shame and self rejection inherent in those on the spiritual path.
So, to enjoy the self destruction with the faith that if it's supposed to get better it will. All I need to keep doing is 1) giving everything to the universe to solve on my behalf, 2) place the welfare of others ahead of myself and get busy helping others in a sane way 3) prayer and meditation with daily inventory and if i've harmed someone pray for the willingness to make amends 4) Pray for the willingness to do the first three steps.
Super simple. Everything else just gets taken care of, especially if I have the courage to be exactly the person I am in each moment. And if I don't, I pray for the courage to accept myself. Even that comes from the universe. So basically, my job is to pray for acceptance and to work the program. Pretty simple. Especially in the ugly moments of life when I've utterly disappointed myself. If I can hang on to a sense of trust in the perfection of it all in those moments, I feel like I've done my job!
P.S., there are plenty of moments I'm not in that space of total surrender. Who cares! I don't need to make myself more surrendered than I am!
Hope this is helpful. |
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hematite
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 14:47:36
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p.s. p.s.
I just want to add that this route I tried as an experiment and it worked for me. It was the way I found most helpful, but I know everyone's answers are different and that's what is so cool about life! |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 17:48:14
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I do not think that thinking of ourselves and our emotions is incorrectly self-centered. We need to feel what we feel, be who we are, and process our crap before we can move on.
The goal of Sarno's program and the goal of therapy are not sitting, dwelling, obsessing. Sarno recommends (as does Schechter) that about 30-60 minutes a day be spent on the work. The advice to think psychological the rest of the time does not mean dwelling. It means, if you are thinking about the physical (or affective symptoms like depression and anxiety), switch briefly to thinking about the emotions. The purpose is to break the ability of the distraction to distract you, and not get caught in the thoughts, not for you to spend half an hour dwelling on stuff every time you get pain or get anxious.
But at least if you do then you are spending the time thinking about stuff that is important to you emotionally instead of meaningless worrying about distracting symptoms.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 07:18:48
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Thank you so much Hematitie and armchair for both of your great perspectives. Hematite - do you suffer from anxiety now after your pain going away? I love how you are just letting go of controlling everything. I really struggle with that.
I can tell you that right now I am completely obssessed with my anxiety. I worry about it all the time and keep trying to adjust my medication I am taking for it. The problem is that the antidepressants - I take very mild doses - are putting alot of weight on me and that is making me more frustrated and depressed! I don't want to take them at all but they take the edge off a little.
I have Lucinda Bassett's program of attacking anxiety that I am trying to do in addition to Sarno's psychology. In my mind, I guess I have become some kind of "anxiety project" - hmm...this distraction is really working. |
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hematite
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 14:33:14
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Yes, I have anxiety. I wouldn't have spent years in bed in pain, visiting one doctor after another, neuro stimulator implant trial, pain pills, p.t.'s etc., if I didn't have it and needed a cover for that and other emotions I couldn't deal with. But again, I am trusting that as I go deeper into the total dependence on the universe thing, that I don't need to resolve that either. It seems to really be working. I'm not alone with it because other people listen when I need them and I trust that I will be changed, but not on my time table. What is wrong with being anxious, anyway? I find that if my day is kind of structured, a lot of it goes away. But I do spend a few hours each day in anxiety. I didn't know it was a bad thing, though. I have a part time job and I love to cook. Those help a lot. Also, reaching out to others helps, too. Again, 1) complete dependence 2) helping others 3)prayer and meditation with daily inventory and I am just really finding a lot of problems are being resolved on their own. So I kind of think that's going to get resolved, too. But if it doesn't, then there's probably a good reason for that. I'm not even interested in knowing how or when.
It's hard - and I'm not going to blame it on our culture, because I think it's part of every human on the planet, but it's hard to trust absolutely when I was taught I needed to figure everything out by myself. But that didn't work for me. I'm beginning to trust more as I see the results of keeping the focus on the universe and others. If it's on me, I think the anxiety is way up. But I'm not even in charge of if I'm focused on myself or not. (So I don't find one more thing to beat myself up over). I'm who I am naturally. I think finally that is enough. (I actually think of myself quite a lot. Which is probably appropriate.)
I think it's interesting to see that for years I used the phrase "what is my part of the foot work" to edge God out. Today, I really don't value my part of the solution. Solutions come to me. Sarno's book came to me. A new job came to me. New friendships, etc. More money because I was living on the edge a year ago and today I have a little money in the bank. I would go into detail about all the changes that have happened since the whole process started, but I'll just say it's been slightly amazing. There's like 5 or so significant areas of my life that have improved, not counting the pain.
So re: anxiety, I kind of think it's not my problem to solve today. And this is only because after years of trying everything else, this is the only way that worked for me.
Other people may have other good ways that worked for them that are very different. But this is the one thing that worked for me after dozens of failed attempts at other experiments.
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How do you ignore anxiety?
