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meldav
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2008 : 15:50:37
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hi,
i have recently joined this forum, and have 2 of the books (im about half way through both)
I have been suffering from Chronic Back,neck,shoulder,spine pain for 4 years
anyway, im suffering from Depression (i believe its quite bad and getting worse) My GP has increased the anti-depressants to the maxium dose about 7 weeks ago, but still i feel its getting worse.
back to my qestion,
can someone recover from Chronic Pain if they have depression ?
mel xx |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2008 : 16:31:02
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Absolutely. Use a TMS approach to tackle the chronic pain and I wouldn't be surprised if the depression begins to improve as well. Studies for the longest time have showed that placebo pills can be nearly as effective as antidepressants (without any of the side effects) in the treatment of depression.
I just saw a piece on Discovery Health on the placebo effect in which a woman with severe depression of >30 years recovered following the administration of placebo pills PLUS fMRI studies showed increased frontal lobe activity following administration of the placebo, consistent with actual physiologic mood improvement.
A mind-body approach to dealing with a mood disorder is, in my opinion, the best approach one can take. You may also want to look into the work of Dr. Martin Seligman for other nonpharmacologic approaches to tackling depression, but if you are well-grounded in, and confident with, the TMS principles, then even that is not necessary. Good luck.
Best,
MK
p.s. I just saw on your profile message that you were diagnosed with fibromyalgia and think you MAY have TMS, but aren't exactly sure. If you were diagnosed with fibromyalgia, then you were diagnosed with TMS! You have TMS without a shadow of a doubt. Fibromyalgia IS TMS, granted a more severe variant. |
Edited by - mk6283 on 03/30/2008 16:38:47 |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2008 : 17:16:38
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yes, you can recover
remember, it's very often about suppressed / diverted rage
at least in my experience, as a more or less recovered fibromyalgia sufferer of 30 years!!
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2008 : 00:23:16
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Mel,
If your anti-depressants are being managed by a GP and you feel things are still getting worse, you may want to see a psychiatrist or other mental health professional. Depression can definitely be part of a severe case of TMS, but if it is serious depression, therapy from a professional (psychiatrist, psychologist, or licensed therapist) is likely to be a recommended part of the treatment. For sure keep up with your meds for now -- you probably already know that changing meds for depression has to be managed carefully.
If you become familiar with Sarno's theory of TMS and understand how it applies to you, and continue to work through depression with therapy, you'll probably find that you have success with the chronic pain and depression both. I had a mix of pain and depression for a number of years and am recovered from both now after finding Sarno's work and then going to therapy (it's been almost a year of therapy now). The pain went away quickly for me but the depression took longer to deal with. Give it a try and see how things go.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 07:55:18
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Armchair,
Can you tell me a little about your success with depression - I imagine you had anxiety too? Did you find that it increased when you started the work with your therapist? I really want to get off the antidepressants I am on - I hate their side affects. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 13:57:41
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Hi Suz,
This is kind of a long post. It might help to know where I'm coming from.
I had depression on and off for many years starting when I was about 15, along with some minor pain complaints (knee pain on running) before it turned into TMS (in the form of RSI) and took over control of my life when I was 22. With some perspective on it now, I can say with confidence it came from never learning to feel my emotions, especially anger and other negative emotions. My family did not really 'do' these kinds of emotions. The modus operandi was smile and go along, don't fight and argue, work hard and be good. For the same reasons I did not learn many of the skills for handling conflict and emotion in other relationships. (Even now, seeing and acting out conflict as healthy is HARD.) Writing in a journal was a safety valve for me. I still was not really in touch and processing the emotions but at least I was able to release some of the pressure.
In college I stopped writing in my journal as much. Whenever my life would get substantially less happy and more stressful, the depression would come, and it would then get a little better when things changed. When I was getting ready to graduate, I was pretty stressed and the pain came on. After that I mostly had pain again for a while until I had some crappy things happen simultaneously, and then I had pain AND depression again for a while.
It's basically been a cycle since then. I would improve from the depression with a change in life circumstances, and the pain would vary but not go away. Once I recovered from the pain with Sarno, the depression came back again (confluent with other negative circumstances). I was able to feel some emotions then, and started to work through some things on my own, but things got overwhelming about 9 months later and I just couldn't deal with it anymore, at which point I called a therapist (thank goodness). I just could not fight it on my own at that point even though I knew from Sarno that's what I needed to do. The apathy was too great, the disconnection was too severe, the emotions were too painful.
When I started therapy things got harder, but not really worse, per se. I got an outlet that I needed, someone to talk to who was objective, yet cared about me. I had to come face to face with a lot of stuff that sucked to feel and sucked to think about, times when my needs as a kid really were not met at all, to the great detriment of my development and my relationship with my parents. I did feel worse some of the time, but I also felt better some of the time. I didn't go on anti-depressants -- my therapist mentioned it as a possibility, but I was functional enough (I've always been a functional depressive -- because I am programmed to play the part of a good kid -- partly why I did not get the help I needed earlier) that I just wanted to keep going and see how I would do.
Eventually the depression lifted after some months of therapy. Depression is stagnant emotion, and processing the emotion lifts the depression because you are engaged. Feeling alive is feeling emotions, connecting with yourself, your associates, your activities. I feel alive now. I can feel my own emotions even if I forget to or resist it sometimes. I know better how I feel and I can act on it. Therapy helped me revisit and process the stuck emotions from my life, and is currently teaching me new habits of connecting and processing and relating that are more healthy for me. It is the best thing I've ever done for myself, even if I spend some sessions fighting myself and/or my therapist because I'm having trouble accepting something, and I had to give myself treats after sessions for several months to ensure I would keep going back because it was hard to face things (Rank bribery! But it works on the 3-year-old inside, I assure you.)
I have always been a bit of a worrier too. My anxiety has not been as paralyzing as it sounds like yours is (or as my mother's is), but it keeps me awake at night sometimes, or distracts me from being attentive to the present when awake. I have circular worries and worry about *everything* when I'm stuck in these thoughts. Telling myself I know it's silly and I've already thought of that doesn't help.
I started by fighting the anxiety cycle with anger, since I was out of other ideas, I thought maybe focusing on the anger/rage would cut it out because it's supposed to be a distraction. I would just get angry, maybe about something recent, maybe about something ongoing, or old, anything that would bring up anger. Anger would bring a different set of body feelings into play and help me interrupt the cycle. Then I would let the anger go, slowly, and could feel like I was done. I think the chemicals are different so it screws up the worry cycle which is sustained by the feeling in the brain. This is just a theory. :)
Then I realized recently (I think this may be documented somewhere on the forum) that I worry because it helps me feel some control over situations that otherwise might bring emotions I fear -- feelings of failure or embarrassment at mistakes, anger and conflict. Somehow unconsciously I hope that preparing myself for all possible alternates by thinking of them and deciding what to do, I can avoid those feelings I fear. But I realized that I can't, and furthermore I can't think of all the alternatives because situations involve other people I can't control, whose behavior I'm not responsible for! So since realizing this I will go into that fear, or into the emotions that I fear. This also short-circuits the anxiety because it goes to the core of what it's really about for me.
So that's the long version. To address the original topic to some extent, I don't know if my depression was "bad". I was never medicated and wasn't diagnosed until recently when my therapist classified it as dysthymic depression, which isn't a major depression but it is chronic. One site has this to say "Dysthymia is a condition that tends to develop early in a person's life, but most people delay approximately ten years before every seeking treatment." That would describe me! It was bad enough that I was self-injuring for a while and felt like what was the point of life.
And I would say I'm recovered now. I'm still in therapy to keep improving my connection to myself and my way of relating to others (to make it more healthy and reflective of what I'm feeling -- my therapist calls this "Saying your truth") but I've been pain-free for almost two years and felt tons better, pretty much normal, for the last 4-5 months.
For Suz and for mel and for hazer and others who are depressed, anxious, in pain -- stick with it, I have been there, and I know there is a better place to be, and I believe that that place is accessible to all of us, though we may all need to find our own path to it. Trust yourself and seek your truth. I know, the hardest thing to do when you are depressed is trust yourself! But one of the things that has given me a great wellspring of faith in myself and in life is that even in the depths of RSI and depression I always continued to seek solutions, and I found them.
Trust yourself, and seek your truth.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 23:54:04
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Armchairlinguist,
I appreciated that long post--some useful info there. I like the part about therapy making things harder, but not really worse. Also the point about how worrying can give one a sense of having some control is good.
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 09:00:12
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Thanks armchair for taking the time to share your experience - especially with therapy. I am really struggling to continue this - because my symptom of anxiety has been absolutely crippling over the last 10 days since going back to therapy. It has caused terrible arguments and over sensitivity with my boyfriend and many people in my life. I have been pretty dysfunctional.
I have been listening to Lucinda Bassett and Claire Weekes and for the first time in a long time have real hope that I can get over this - and get over it pretty quickly.
I actually don't have any problem going back into my childhood - getting angry - crying, raging......this has done nothing to help my anxiety. I actually am not sure this is the answer at all.
I think the continued negativity and thought patterns are causing the anxiety....change those and the worrying stops. This is where CBT comes in. I also think that continued stressful situation, coupled with obssession with oneself and ones feelings and body symptoms and a very perfectionist personality all fuel this worry.
I am really torn between Sarno and CBT - like Claire Weekes. I spoke to Don Dubin yesterday who I think uses Claire WEekes work too. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 11:22:06
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I don't think that Sarno and CBT are necessarily contradictory, myself, depending on how you approach it. Sarno is right, AFAIK, that CBT doesn't help deal with issues in the past (and how they are affecting your present, which to me is more important than the "past issue" -- how it patterned you emotionally and how it still affects your life today through that pattern), it is for dealing with the simpler species of patterns, thought patterns. I am personally skeptical about CBT because its practitioners believe that thoughts create emotions, when my experience is that while thoughts can sustain and exaggerate emotions, it's fundamentally emotions that create thoughts -- thoughts are, in part, how we express emotional reactions to ourselves (besides being the tools of logical reasoning).
Both pain and anxiety are self-perpetuating and to some extent the point of Sarno's work is that you have to get out of the habit of perpetuating them. In that sense it is very compatible with CBT, which is about getting out of the habit of perpetuating negative thoughts. :)
But I think for those of us who have had longstanding emotional disturbances too, therapy or self-discovery to understand how your past affected and is affecting you is important so that you can process things, move on, and form healthier patterns in your life. If you want my bald opinion, I think you may need that kind of therapy. Some of the things you say about your boyfriend remind me of things I have said in the past that I later saw weren't so healthy for me. But that might not be the thing you need most acutely right now, if the anxiety is really a problem. I know you already have a book, but I read a book about anxiety that I really appreciated called Women and Anxiety. It was very illuminating about causes of anxiety and a structured but flexible plan to help deal with things that make you anxious.
Seek the path that's right for you. If it isn't "by the book", and seems contradictory to Sarno to some extent, so be it. I myself have contradicted the good doctor by determining that it is possible to feel my repressed emotions and going about doing that to some extent. ;) I still agree with many aspects of his work, he is just not foolproof, and his knowledge is at its least with affective equivalents, since he was not trained in psychology, psychiatry, or psychotherapy.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 12:21:05
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Fabulous explanation armchair. I completely agree that my past childhood traumas have dictated how I react to things. I struggle with the distraction theory in general. I do think that Claire Weekes work more than anyone's works well because it teaches one not to be fearful of any feelings or physical symptoms. She talks about "floating" through them and just letting them happen. Basically, she helps take away teh big Fear factor that feeds into them.
Now since you mentioned the boyfriend factor....I cannot resist asking you about what you saw in yourself? I imagine it is that he teases me sometimes and I dont' like it?? |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 12:25:47
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| The other thing I am finding when it comes to reading Claire Weekes CTB approach is that it is making me feel stronger and more positive. I find myself feeling really helpless after talking to the therapist. I feel that I am a victim of this anxiety and it will take forever for me to get over it. In just 2 days of reading and listening to Weekes and Bassett - I felt a new found positive attitude. I have really begun to understand that the anxiety is really nothing. For some reason, Weekes takes the power out of the symptoms. I feel depressed by Sarno's therapist - as if it is going to be hour after hour and week after week of sitting in my childhood pain and crying and screaming. There is a helpless feeling there. Weekes trains you to feel the feelings right now. I understand that I am terrified of feeling uncomfortable things. So Weeks teaches you to float through and accept them - in other words, trains you to feel. Isn't that what Sarno's therapist is doing anyway - teaching you to feel and stop avoiding doing that? |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 13:30:47
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Hmm, I have to say, your description of Sarno's therapist sounds like she is not a good match for you. Maybe you need a therapist who sees things differently. I think my therapist, for example, is different from yours. I do spend some of my therapy time revisiting past emotions, but my therapist has always made clear her approach is to help me be in touch with my feelings, both how I felt in the past, and how I feel in the present. Parallel goals are to understand how my past affects my present and replace the patterns and habits that are not working for me with healthier ones. So there is a connection there between going and revisiting unpleasant feelings of the past, and how it will help me in the future. Thus I don't have this feeling of it being hopeless and neverending. (Though I am sometimes discouraged that there is so much stuff that it keeps popping up. But working through things has given me more faith that things will come up, pass through, and become more resolved. It feels like cleaning out dusty hidden nooks closets and sometimes.)
I would suggest that you talk to your therapist about how revisiting the feelings makes you feel in the present (e.g. hopeless), and how you would like to connect feeling the past feelings to your present goals. The two are, I think, connected, as I described above. If she doesn't accept that approach, maybe it is not a good match. In the area you are in there must be jillions of good therapists -- I'm sure you can find one that you do work well with, maybe one who is insight-focused but still more compatible with the Weekes program (which sounds great, very compatible with Sarno at the level of dealing with the fear, and sounds as if it is really helping you). My therapist is Bradshaw-method trained, so she uses the metaphor of the inner child which is one that works well for me, but a lot of our interaction is conventional talk-therapy anyway. The method isn't always so important as having compatible goals and understanding of the process.
As to the boyfriend question, it isn't one specific thing but more of the pattern. I see you talking about how he treats you (for example, teasing) and questioning your own feelings about it, justifying his behavior, whatever it is. I tend to do this myself a lot, but I am learning to give more credence to how I feel, and recognize that something making me feel bad makes me feel bad, even if there is not a good reason for it, and that if I tell him it bothers or hurts me and I'd like him to stop and he doesn't stop, that is a strong message for him to send that he does not care too much that he is bothering or hurting me by doing that.
As I mentioned in the case of the teasing, it might be that you want to get to where you can accept his teasing comfortably, and maybe his behavior really is in the normal range, but what I saw there is that you are not comfortable, his behavior really sets you off, and you are justifying his behavior rather than asking him to please at least put it on ice for a while because you are sensitive right now.
My boyfriend, as it happens, isn't wild about me teasing him in certain ways that I find pretty innocuous, for example, about whether he finds certain TV or movie stars attractive. I do think it's a bit weird, but that's how he feels, so I am learning to tune my teasing to subjects and a level he finds more comfortable. I don't think it would be kind or considerate of me to continue teasing that he has told me makes him uncomfortable, whether I think it is normal or not.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 13:52:55
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thanks armchair - you are so helpful.
I do have another therapist I could go back to - she is insight trained and very good. I always felt positive when I went to see her. She is much closer than this therapist.
What is weird is that I am actually scared of breaking off with this therapist. I know tomorrow she will tell me that I have to stay with her and I always end up feeling nervous that I am doing the wrong thing leaving her. I actually feel guilt and worry. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 17:12:17
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Best of luck, Suz. I sympathize and often feel similarly trying to sort things out. It can be hard to stop doing something that isn't working. You can't be sure, but like I said, trust yourself, and do what feels right to you.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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1yehmon2
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 14:12:16
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| I hate laptops!!! Too damn touchy! I sent you a lengthy response and as I was typing the last sentence my sleeve went over something and deleted the entire post. Condensed version: Your depression is most likely totally related to your pain. You've had it for 4 years. How could you NOT be depressed? Order the book Rapid Recovery from Back and Neck pain. cheapest I found was Amazon for $11.00 Finish reading Sarno's books while you are waiting for it. Get that program into your head thouroughly before you start the next book's step by step instructions on how to put what you read from Sarno into daily practise. WHat do you have to lose? only your pain AND depression!!! |
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Can you Recover if you have BAD DEPRESSION ?
