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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2008 : 20:23:40
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quote:
You only have to look at the diversity of those experiencing this "syndrome" to see that there's more going on.
And what diversity is that? Demographic diversity? If you refer to symptoms, you couldn't be more wrong. Anxiety conditions target the nervous system, period. Anywhere there are nerves, one can have symptoms, pain, numbness, tingling, twitching, electric jolts, which means literally anywhere. And these people have histories of them. They just don't understand them, what causes them, and how to get rid of them. What I am saying is nothing different from Dr. Brady except his treatment plan is a Sarno retread. This doesn't work for a bunch here, so I gave them a viable alternative.
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austini
29 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 23:00:48
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Hi Hillbilly,
I totally agree with you. Essentially all these symptoms are due to an "oversensitised" central nervous system. Without anxiety, fear etc the pain can't exist.
Cheers - Gordon |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 06:26:11
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Hillbilly,
What I mean most importantly by "diversity" is that there are many people who started with the anxiety theory (including Weekes program), found it inadequate for their case, and moved on to other psychological theories. You can certainly find them on this board if you give it a thorough reading, but more importantly, they are all over the literature on psychosomatic medicine and alexithymia.
What you are doing is a common human behavior -- generalizing from yourself. You were cured with treatments for anxiety, therefore everyone else has the same thing (couch this as you may, that's the behaviour). Humans want to believe that their flaws are shared by everyone (unsurprisingly, they also want to believe their strengths are unique). But the truth is there are a large, complex set of human bio/psychological flaws that lead to these various syndromes.
I found my cure reading Sarno. But I didn't believe every word of it (far from it -- many suggested I leave the board because of my objections to parts of the theory). But even after finding my cure I've continued to read the conflicting literature and accept that most of the theories contain some truth and most of their treatments will work (at least in part) for some.
What you've done is generalized from your own success that every one else is just like you. I don't know that this will do a lot of harm, except for the gullible who'll be turned off what could be valid lines of inquiry. But what it will do is make you sound like an annoying zealot to anyone who isn't prepared to jump on your bandwagon.
-Lexis |
Edited by - alexis on 02/27/2008 06:27:14 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 08:43:59
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quote:
What I mean most importantly by "diversity" is that there are many people who started with the anxiety theory (including Weekes program), found it inadequate for their case,
This, of course, means nothing. Because someone read a book and then abandoned it is proof of nothing at all. The cure Dr. Weekes speaks of required discipline of thought and action, something I certainly didn't have in abundance when I was ill. There are many millions of people who have been told repeatedly by doctors that there is nothing wrong with them except bad nerves, and yet they feel pain or tingling or other sensations and immediately think the doctors are wrong, have missed something, etc. This is how people stay ill from agoraphobia for decades. But her explanation of how the nervous system gets out of whack is very simple and scientific. Her method of cure was remarkably successful, and this was a very radical approach during her time. Her method grew out of her deep concern for her patients.
I never stated that all the various problems that people suffer from on this board are a direct result of anxiety, the emotion. That is very, very different. These things have to have a name, so I refer to what they are called. Intense, sustained anger and frustration, boredom, sorrow, guilt, and a host of other emotional difficulties can disorder the body's functions just as readily, but here is the interesting thing. We can walk around for years and years, unhappy, barely enough energy to get through the week, in a general funk about anything or many things. But once the body starts to make noise, in order for it to stay there, to interefere with daily life, to cause mental fixation, fear must be present. Dr. Sarno says so as well.
If you don't fear something, it can't get and keep your attention. When you have nervous ailments, try as you might, the noise keeps getting louder and louder until you do pay attention to it, and then nearly all the time. It becomes a near constant thought. That is how Dr. Weekes cured her patients, by teaching them to function normally despite their strong symptoms being present. This is barely at all different from Sarno's exhortations to return to normal activity. People with any of these ailments can return to normal activity, but they won't feel normal, and that is what scares them.
I looked up your story. When you had RSI, a guarantee you that the symptoms you felt were constantly on your mind. If you forgot about it for a while and then remembered it, you immediately felt that sinking feeling. I also read something out on Rachel Podolsky's site. I could've copied and pasted it into my first message, it fit so well with what I am saying. Her statement was that the thought of this never getting better is the fuel that fires that engine and keeps RSI pain going. Read it for yourself. This is how nervous ailments work. Fear is a stress on top of the stress you are already under, so constant stress creates constant stress symptoms, one of the most prominent being muscular tension and pain.
Let me state clearly that everyone is not like me. Thank God! I had to read and read and analyze and reread and analyze and finally make the connection, accept what my six doctors were telling me was right. There was nothing clinically wrong. I listened to the language my body spoke instead of reason. When my coach finally was able to point out these flawed thinking patterns and help me understand the stress my thoughts had kept me under for most of my life, I saw quick changes in my body. She called this the "paralysis of analysis." I see this very trait in the scant reading I have done on this forum the past couple of days. These people are intelligent and thoughtful and don't feel normal. They are bewildered by their body's lack of comfort and constantly seek out answers in their minds.
Dr. Ron Seigel, a man who cured himself after reading Dr. Sarno's first book and then talking to one of his patients, certainly diverges from Dr. Sarno in his own treatment plan. His focus is also on -- anxiety.
Alexis, your post contains no information at all that counters my stance. It merely states that you perceive my statements to assume that my way is going to cure everyone. I know it won't. I know there are those that will not ever believe their thought life and resultant emotions can cause this type of suffering. If you have something you think proves my argument wrong, please share it. The method of discrediting the messenger works well in presidential campaigns, but it doesn't hold water here. If you are annoyed, that is your choice of reaction. It is not my intent to convince you. You are "cured." |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 10:05:29
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She called this the "paralysis of analysis." I see this very trait in the scant reading I have done on this forum the past couple of days. These people are intelligent and thoughtful and don't feel normal. They are bewildered by their body's lack of comfort and constantly seek out answers in their minds.
This SOOOO describes my Fibro friend. She swears the doctors don't know what they are doing since they can't find anything. Her body's comfort level is ALWAYS on her mind. She's continually aware of any little thing that causes her discomfort. I find it interesting that she also had an extremely disfunctional childhood that she hardly acknowledges so I'm sure she's never worked through her feelings about it in any constructive sort of way.
I feel lucky in that getting rid of the fear of pain or injury has pretty much cured my pain. I know there are a variety of experiences among members of this board but I found the fear aspect of TMS to be the debilitating factor. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 10:24:13
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Swmr1,
Your experience is consistent with most. I believe strongly that if most who think they have TMS faced their fears of discomfort and returned to normal activity, their pain would disappear relatively shortly, so long as they didn't look for it all the time. This explains, at least in my mind, how many get better using Sarno's approach. People somehow are able to face the fear that keeps that stress accelerator on the floor. Once they walk through the fear and live, they don't think of their pain as such a mountain anymore, but most need repeated practice at this. This is no different from curing panic attacks. The concepts are entirely congruent. All my best for continued health. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 11:09:51
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People somehow are able to face the fear that keeps that stress accelerator on the floor. Once they walk through the fear and live, they don't think of their pain as such a mountain anymore,
In the case of my friend, it's almost like that "mountain" is something she's used to and almost doesn't want to let go of. My reasoning is probably way off, but I keep having to fight the thought that if she REALLY hated what she's going through, if she was TRULY angry about it then she'd move forward. She'd say "To hell with this I'm going to push forward if it freakin' kills me!" Maybe I'm just more easily ticked off and impatient than she is (though I have reason to believe that she has more reason for hostility).
It's as if something about her pain is secretly working for her and she's reluctant to let that part go. I am baffled so I say very little and keep my thoughts pretty much to myself. |
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Alpha
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 12:09:24
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@Hillbilly: Hi, I have some questions about the anxiety disorder approach.
First, what I always liked and held for true about sarnos approach, is, that the symptoms are REAL, even so they are only caused by chronic muscle tension or other nervous system induced benign changes in the body.
Is this also your view, because you write "The cure lies in acceptance and understanding that the symptoms are just everyday symptoms of stress exaggerated by fixation and sensitization". I don't know if you may mean, that the symptoms are minor dicomforts, that everybody has, but we just percieve it as worse than it really is through concentrating on it or do you mean, that the pains and discomforts ARE unusal intense, even though it is harmless, but get more and more, because we get so obsessed with our symptoms.
In other words, after the treatment, do we get rid of all the symptoms of the anxiety disorder?
Second, what is the cause of the whole disorder? Faulty thinking or repressed emotions? Because if I understood right, you talked about how your theraphist helped you to realize the faulty thinking patterns (for example: I will never get well), but you also they, that "Intense, sustained anger and frustration, boredom, sorrow, guilt, and a host of other emotional difficulties can disorder the body's functions just as readily".
So just to get it right, what came first, the distructive (repressed?) emotions or the negative thinking patterns?
Or are the negative thoughts just a product of the anxiety: "Something is really wrong with me", "I will never get well", "My body isn't working", "I have to be extra careful" blablabla.
So that it is basicly: Emotions like anger, fear, shame guilt get repressed, that creates stress on the system, which the body expresses in symptoms, we start to get scared by the symptoms and assume something is wrong with us physically, which leads to anxiety, which increases the stress and symptoms.
Which leads me to 3. Which is the way to recover? Threathing just the anxiety based thought patterns and learn to relax and accept, that the symptoms are harmless and start to live life without fear of physical illness?
Or should one also work on releasing the repressed emotions?
If I understand you right, you would suggest working with a cognitive therapeut insteat of a psychoanalist like Sarno advocates and also adopt the mindset, that nothing is wrong and to just live life without worrying about the symptoms, which (in difference to Sarno) couldn't vanish in some hours but it would take some month.
Sorry my english is not got enough to write more clearly. I hope you understand my questions.
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As you think, so shall you become. - Bruce Lee |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 13:11:05
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The relationship of the time I claim to be pain-free and the time I was isn't all that relevant. I don't, and didn't, spend a lot of time trying to support my accuracy by saying that I was now 100% pain free, because my pain-free-ness is not the point. I said clearly that I am doing ongoing work to take care of non-pain affective symptoms. The change in my anxiety level was immediate on learning which Sarno techniques I needed to apply to it -- it did not take "many months", and I stand by that statement. Obviously, as on any messageboard, you can either accept what people say as true or you can deny it, since there is no proof.
Too bad that you are too absorbed in pulling apart my story to actually discuss the points I made about the closer connections between Sarno's theory and the one you followed than you would like to admit.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 13:13:58
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I agree that being able to ignore the symptoms and not fear them is a crucial thing--at least it has been for me.
quote:
Anxiety conditions target the nervous system, period
What about the immune system, the cardiovascular system, the lymphatic system, and any host of other systems? I can tell you unequivocally that things such as allergies, skin disorders etc can be TMS equivalents, but they arent directly nervous sytem related. I have no question that stress plays a direct role with these things as well, but your statement was too emphatic.
Since you tout science, I would like to hear an explanation from you about what role the herniated disc plays--since it is the beast that started "TMS" in the first place?? Is the herniation "created by stress"?? Does the disc actually cause real pain but we aren't aware of it until stress triggers the recognition??? If so, how do you explain the New England study among others? Either the disc causes pain or it doesnt--Sarno says it doesn't. If it doesnt, why does the stressed mind "target" it?? If it does, how could Sarno's treatment cause complete and permanent relief from these symptoms (it did for me and thousands others) You had better have a good answer, or you've lost all credibility! |
Edited by - stanfr on 02/27/2008 13:19:13 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 13:37:59
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Alpha,
Rather than attempt to be professorial, I can give you an example that I hope simplifies thsi process for you. If a dog jumps out at you while you are walking at night, you might get symptoms of stress that we would all recognize readily: your heart beating faster, sweating, muscles tightening, legs feeling a bit shaky. If the dog stops at his fence boundary, you forget the incident and keep walking. The stress hormones burn up in your system and you return to normal functioning in a short while.
But if you go home and think about that dog all night and how you felt, your system might not calm down for a very long time, then you might worry about why you still have a pounding heart long after this has been past and get worried. What will worry do? Send more hormones into your bloodstream, keep the symptoms going, and eventually you might fall ill.
In adult life, there are perceived dangers everywhere: social dangers, financial dangers, health dangers, war dangers, lots of stuff. If you are a worry-prone person, you can constantly fixate on these dangers until you scramble your nervous system. The dog is constantly barking in your head. This is the thinking habit that I recognized in myself. I also recognized a pattern of doing this for decades before I got any symptoms. it wasn't until all these things piled up on me that my resistance to them broke, and my body felt the ill effects.
I was completely better in eight weeks. Many times it takes less or more time. I think this was a function of my desire to get better, and my confidence in the person who was leading me to recovery. I lost my confidence in Sarno when I tried his exact program to the letter, yet continued to suffer. This is my whole purpose in starting this thread.
It all depends on how resolute the person is about what is causing his issues and how readily he/she can force himself to function and face fearful or dreaded situations. Exposure therapy is a well-documented way to overcome fear. This is what Sarno advocates by recommending full, normal activity. This cures the physicophobia he refers to and can lead to a banishment of pain. There are examples of this on the forum here for you to read. I don't claim to have invented the cure for TMS. But I do know that struggling to understand this theory, for analytical people especially, can lead to more frustration, more stress, and more symptom entrenchment.
The cure is outlined well in Dr. Brady's book: calm the autonomic reactions down. He has added relaxation exercises based upon hard scientific proof (Herbert Benson's research), which Sarno totally poo-poos. He also states in exact terms to how anxiety disorders begin what happens in the HPA (hypothalamus, pituitary, autonomic) interaction that keeps the secretion of stress hormones flowing. But he also uses the technique of trying to write out all the negative feelings on paper and advocates antidepressants for depression. This works for about the same percentage as Sarno claims.
So my advice is to attempt to get better with Sarno's approach. If it doesn't work after a few months, don't despair. It just means the system is still overloaded. This can be reversed even after decades. Google the name Faison Covington for proof of this. Despair over the symptoms just adds to them.
Direct answer to your question: I don't believe for one second that our emotions are seeking our demise and our brain is searching out ways to distract us from danger. You have no direct control over your emotions, anyway, so let them come and go without thinking about them all the time, hiding from them. You can, however, change your thoughts and influence your beliefs through practice. If you believe you can't do something and force yourself to do it, you retrain your brain to throw out the old belief and accept the new. This is not a radical departure from Sarno's message, so don't worry so much about it.
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 13:48:40
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Is the herniation "created by stress"?? Does the disc actually cause real pain but we aren't aware of it until stress triggers the recognition??? If so, how do you explain the New England study among others? Either the disc causes pain or it doesnt--Sarno says it doesn't. If it doesnt, why does the stressed mind "target" it??
Implicit in this statement is a VERY strong assumption. That the stressed mind "targets" it. How on earth can this be proved? If there is a herniation anywhere near the location of tender soft tissue, this is blamed for the pain by practitioners. Sarno's point about this is one that I agree with totally. But the brain picks this area? Picks it? Come on now! The New England Journal study was not of stressed patients, so why did they have herniations and other abnormalities? Who cares? The herniations don't cause pain. I can accept that. But dude, you swallow the Kool-Aid big time with your assumption of the targeting.
I think his whole notion of targeting and distraction is all nonsense. If Sarno said his patients always had pain in the soft tissues exclusively near herniations, this would be easier to swallow. But what about the person with pain in his arm and a lumbar herniation? Why the arm as a target without a radial fracture or something else?
quote:
What about the immune system, the cardiovascular system, the lymphatic system, and any host of other systems? I can tell you unequivocally that things such as allergies, skin disorders etc can be TMS equivalents, but they arent directly nervous sytem related.
You may tell me anything you please. But if you think the timing of the heart isn't regulated by the nervous system, I can't have a reasonable discussion with you. What causes goose bumps on the skin, if not a reaction of the nervous system? I had a hiving skin condition for 15 years called cholinergic urticaria. It is thought to be an autoimmune response to acetylcholine, which is a brain chemical that is secreted in response to ______? If you said stress, you are right. You are in a fighting mood for no good reason. I came here to help people who are struggling.
I will not respond again to harshness, but I will answer questions for anyone else curious about what I did to recover.
By the way, Sarno himself now refers to this thing as tension myoneural syndrome? Why? Because he now believes the primary tissue involved is nerves. |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 02/27/2008 14:42:26 |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 14:13:38
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| Hillbilly, your right in that there is no "proof" per se, but everything i have seen (and many many others on this board) suggests that it is "targeted" Dont discount this simply because your personal experience doesnt bear this out--this is what ACL and Alexis and I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to point out to you. I am 100% convinced through my personal experience that there is "targeting" involved. I am 100% convinced that it was not a remarkable coincidence that my herniations and sciatica (along with EVERY other TMS related symptom ive had) were on my RIGHT side, and that is why my sciatic nerve, impinged by the herniation supposedly, was to blame. You clearly dont have this experience, so don't presume its all nonsense. I had a septoplasty last year due to chronic congestion on my right side, where there was a deviated septum Afterwords, the congestion simply switched to the left side, since the supposed physical impediment could no longer be blamed. I completely understand your reluctance to accept the idea that the subconscious is prone to these tricks, but i am suggesting to you that you are underestimating it. The 'target' may not be neccessary in every case, but from what ive seen in over 12 yrs of looking at this phenomena is that it generally does, and its not just some coincidence as you'd like us to believe. |
Edited by - stanfr on 02/27/2008 14:17:09 |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 14:42:26
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Hillbilly, i understand the difficulty in e-communication, but your posts come off as incredibly arrogant and presumptuous, and im not the only one to notice this. If you dont think i understand where you are coming from, i highly recommend you read my posts from the last year, when i was repeatedly scolded for making some of the same presumtions you make. We are simply cautioning you that when you make emphatic statements like the subconscious role is "nonsense" and that we are on cool-aid if we believe in it, and simple stress is the whole answer, just calm down and everything will be all right, you're doing a disservice to the people you claim to want to help. As a scientist (MS in physical sciences) and former trial attorney who is an ultra-skeptic when it comes to alternative medecine (i personally dont believe in most 'alternative' claims including benign things like acupuncture and chiropractic!), i can tell you that you are falling prey to the very thing you decry--claiming to "know" what causes what. If you really want to help people, you'd better temper your remarks.
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Edited by - stanfr on 02/27/2008 14:47:42 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 15:05:06
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Stan, I call truce!
Perhaps I arrived here with the memory of when I left the first time, dealing with those who sought my destruction for daring to question something that so many have used to find their lives again. I realize that. I slept with Sarno books beside my bedside for a very long time.
I don't wish to be portrayed as arrogant, but if it fits, I wear it. Penetrating the armor of some of the skulls here is much like penetrating my own. You have to add a little extra oomph behind your spear. I don't apologize for being forceful, because I have researched very fully everything I have stated here, most certainly every word Sarno has published. i do apologize for things that could hurt or stir up strong feelings because I know how important it is to stay calm and rational when fighting stress-related issues.
Again, I came here to make a case for people who are struggling, analyzing, frustrated, and getting nowhere. I also realize that Sarno's voice is the only hope many have had for some time. I will post on this thread through tomorrow, and I will again disappear because I realize how I got sucked into spending time here thinking about pain and what it all meant, and my life is waiting away from this computer. |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 15:52:24
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The ironic thing is that im amazed youve been treated with kid gloves by the Sarno devoted, when i put up posts challenging core Sarno ideas last year i got jumped on almost immediately  Seems like the forum has mellowed, or maybe the diehards got scared away. But ive learned time and time again not to preach or even give the appearance of preaching! I think its great your offering new ideas and hope for those who need it. This can and should be a place to discuss the merits of any psychologic-based protocol. Like you, i hope to avoid this forum as much as possible because i found that it simply refocused my thougths on the symptoms i was fighting, and that's counterproductive at least in my case. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 16:16:33
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Skiz,
My experience is that we cannot control autonomic responses, hence the name, consciously. We can influence it slightly. The body's own regulatory adaptation (like if you move time zones) can eventually catch up, but it is designed to replicate its conditioned outputs. Sort of like a thermostat that regulates itself. When you need more adrenaline to get through a tense meeting, the regulator opens up for a while during the meeting, then returns to normal. But in the case of this overload, it stays open when it isn't required due to our conditoning to ask for more and more to accoomplish things.
Herbert Benson has proved conclusively that we can control with breathing exercises to some extent the output of stress hormones and the stimulation of the parasympathetic nervous system (the one we like, cause it is active during times of calm). But this is temporary in the Western world. We can't gaze at our bellies all day or someone will take our furniture.
That's why CBT counselors employ many different methods to help bring down the stress response, exposure training to replicate symptoms and defuse fear responses, thought analysis, relaxation or mindfulness meditation, etc. I was given homework to do with my wife so that she could check for accuracy. I think this was helpful.
So many things in our lives put us under stress, but the most stress comes from our streams of worry and negativity because situations last very short spurts typically, but we can stay upset and angry about things, working ourselves up about them for indefinite periods. This habit can, of course, be changed with effort. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 16:20:13
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Skiz,
My experience is that we cannot control autonomic responses, hence the name, consciously. We can influence it slightly. The body's own regulatory adaptation (like if you move time zones) can eventually catch up, but it is designed to replicate its conditioned outputs. Sort of like a thermostat that regulates itself. When you need more adrenaline to get through a tense meeting, the regulator opens up for a while during the meeting, then returns to normal. But in the case of this overload, it stays open when it isn't required due to our conditoning to ask for more and more to accoomplish things.
Herbert Benson has proved conclusively that we can control with breathing exercises to some extent the output of stress hormones and the stimulation of the parasympathetic nervous system (the one we like, cause it is active during times of calm). But this is temporary in the Western world. We can't gaze at our bellies all day or someone will take our furniture.
That's why CBT counselors employ many different methods to help bring down the stress response, exposure training to replicate symptoms and defuse fear responses, thought analysis, relaxation or mindfulness meditation, etc. I was given homework to do with my wife so that she could check for accuracy. I think this was helpful.
So many things in our lives put us under stress, but the most stress comes from our streams of worry and negativity because situations last very short spurts typically, but we can stay upset and angry about things, working ourselves up about them for indefinite periods. This habit can, of course, be changed with effort. |
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austini
29 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 16:28:54
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Hi Hillbilly,
My history is very similar to yours and the treatment advice by the likes of Claire Weekes helped me overcome panic disorder years ago. The pain issue is a more recent event and it was in part thanks to your information here that I was able to see that TMS was nothing more than another anxiety related issue.
So I am in total agreement with what you state and would very much like to communicate with you about a few things such as CBT. However I note you don't have any contact details available. And given that you may not be posting here after today I would be grateful if you would email me with your contact details. However if you would prefer not to do so I fully understand.
Thanks - Gordon
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Science or Sarno?
