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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2008 : 08:50:54
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Hello again, all!
I am a guy who spent lots of time on this forum a while back, mostly in search of an answer to my problem with pain. My pain and other symptoms hit during a period of time when I was disgusted with my work, bored at home, felt trapped in every aspect of my life and emotionally drained.
I spent months and months attempting to employ the techniques outlined by Dr. Sarno to rid myself of awful neck and upper back symptoms. I was confused and bewildered about ongoing symptoms because I was fully aware of all the stressors in my life and my own personality. I used to read his books and hope for inspiration, but I got hung up on absurdities in his logic, like the brain picking capillaries near a herniated disc to try to trick you and other such nonsense. I had to throw out the idea of distraction as the purpose of TMS and see it as a result. A result of continued negativity and stressed nervous system. Dr. Brady seems to have come closer to acknowledging the overloaded nervous system, but still attributes it to those dastardly repressed emotions that we are hiding in our mind's basement amid the cobwebs.
So I started to read about anxiety conditions. These, as opposed to Dr. Sarno's work, have been scientifically studied and well-documented in the literature for decades. The cure lies in acceptance and understanding that the symptoms are just everyday symptoms of stress exaggerated by fixation and sensitization, and calming your system down by dropping the fixation and responding to life's challenges instead of shrinking away from them because you fear failure, embarrassment, or not living up to some perfectionistic standard. This often involves cognitive restructuring and learning to think differently and stop working up your emotions into a tidal wave of adrenaline and cortisol that leaves you drained, tense, achy and in pain.
I found out how they work and what to do about them. I had been nervous and anxious all my life and only occasionally became aware of it, mostly when my body reacted strongly to some situation that sent shockwaves of adrenaline through my body. So, I sought out the cause of my problem and was amazed to discover how negative my thinking was. I had always assumed the worst was going to happen, that catastrophe lay around every corner, that I had no power to influence my own happiness, and on and on.
This is the cause and perpetuation of TMS (or more, accurately, anxiety-induced muscle tension and pain). It is also the cause of FMS, CFS, and a host of other "diseases" that allopathic medicine cannot treat at all. No intervention works other than drugging people into a stupor, which doesn't work at all, really, it merely masks the agony lying just below the surface and in many cases causes terrifying side effects or dependency. My personal choice was to look the devil in the eye, because it was me the whole time.
My GP's office should have a drive-through window for anti-depressants and call-ahead ordering. But there are people out there who have recovered from these conditions by fixing their thinking and being responsible for their lives. I sought help from one, a kind-hearted genius who explained everything that was happening to me on a physiological level in terms of how my thinking was causing it to happen and keeping the cycle going. Tensing is an active habit the you can become conscious of and let go of.
It is a tightening of the body in response to a perceived threat to your social reputation, physical health, or whatever else you "perceive" as a threat. As long as these things threaten you in your mind, you will get symptoms. Been severely embarrassed before? You tense against those feelings if you take it seriously. You feel deeply, work yourself up over it, think about it in times when you should be relaxing, but instead you are pressing the adrenal accelerator to figure out how to avoid this feeling again or how you can talk to your boss without shaking all over. And trying to impress or influence the thinking of others people with your wit and charm as though you are a puppeteer with control switches in your hand to manipulate the minds of others.
TMS is in my opinion, a byproduct of anxiety disorders, nothing more and nothing less. People with these conditions are just not honest with themselves about their insecurities when they say their lives would be great and wonderful if they could just get out of pain. Getting rid of pain means letting go of the tensing habit, but what about all the rotten ideas you had before your symptoms came upon you? Those have to be fixed. And psychoanlysis, as advocated by Sarno, has a terrible track record in dealing with nervous conditions. The psychiatric community has all but abandoned this type of treatment.
Lastly, I found that all labels serve no purpose when we are talking about nervousness. All the different labels listed in the DSM-IV, the diagnostic Bible of the psychiatric community, might help practitioners, but they don't help us. They get us thinking about conditions instead of solutions. Symptoms overlap. Look at the symptom list for FMS. All of them are common stress symptoms experienced individually or en masse by people with entrenched anxiety. And all are caused by a rampaging nervous system and adrenal exhaustion. Do you really think a disease can be accurately diagnosed if 11 spots are tender to touch? What happens if three go away, does that mean you now have myofascial pain syndrome? What causes that, doctor? Well, we don't really know. Why do we stay tight and tense and unahppy? That is the $1 million question that must be answered and addressed for long-term peace.
Many of you know how you struggle with anxiety and yet are here to try to get rid of physical pain. Some are in therapy trying to process childhood emotions with the help of a psychotherapist on the recommendation of Dr. Sarno. If you want a small piece of advice if you are struggling with his theories or even got out of pain but are still unhappy, depressed or just never relaxed and comfortable, help is out there. You have to let your nervous system calm down (this could take months, even without new "stress responses") and this means giving up the most stressful thought of all, "I won't ever get over this." If you coddle your symptoms and feelings in this way, it is likely you will be right.
Remember, TMS, like anxiety, is a diagnosis of exclusion, which means there is NOTHING wrong with you physically. Your body is capable of normal activity. Your nervous system is not, however, cooperating because of your mental state. Fix this and let your body do its designed functions.
Lastly, many do get better simply by understanding there isn't anything wrong, getting back to physical activity and forgetting about their back or neck or whatever, so in that regard, I applaud Dr. Sarno's work. But I can't believe he has overlooked or brushed aside the obvious history of so many of struggling with anxiety and not addressing it at all other than to call it an equivalent of his discovery.
Here's to your health and recovery! |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:07:52
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I'm glad you found success. I think that many also find success with anxiety from Dr. Sarno's work. I did, and it did not "take my nervous system months to calm down". I was able to break the conditioned cycle of anxiety and see significant changes in how I felt immediately, although the work is ongoing to some extent.
With pain and anxiety, and pain caused by anxiety, it is hard to see how you can deny this is connected to TMS, since it follows the fundamental principles that the pain is psychologically caused and can be dealt with by understanding that fact and following through on it by working with the source. Sarno acknowledges the body tension aspect in the very name of the syndrome.
I also found that insight psychotherapy has been helpful in discovering the roots of my anxiety. It is not just a habit from various random encounters; it has a source in repeated childhood experiences. I do not think the therapy community has abandoned treatment for these problems entirely, though not all therapists are compatible with this approach.
It's great that a slightly different approach worked for you. Because of the psychological source and conditioned results of conditions as seemingly unrelated as "FMS", "RSI", anxiety, back pain, and depression, many approaches that address the psychological source work for each. Some, for example, swear by mindfulness meditation, others by TMS. I hope you won't assume that your success with something else means that TMS and/or psychotherapy doesn't work, but just that there are more tools in the toolbox.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
Edited by - armchairlinguist on 02/26/2008 09:09:17 |
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Kristin
98 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:50:41
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| I have been deeply wondering about the same topic you discuss a lot lately. I have been an anxious worrier most of my life and I see it's affects now on my son. He is also anxious. He is exhibiting OCD symptoms now. He was allergic to peanut butter and spent a great deal of his young life worried about the food he was eating and so I think a built up of anxiety has taken it's toll. He also came home from school this fall and found our young cat dead. I can relate to his fears and worries yet he is more open with them whereas I, as a young girl and woman, hid my fears and worries as I saw their negative effect on others(weird to think I was protecting others by not sharing my fears). These days with help from understanding TMS I have been able to manage my fears better. I want to help him. He's 14. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 10:40:18
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ACL,
I wanted the struggling to know about alternatives that work and have worked for decades if they are reading this forum frequently and being frustrated because some recover fully, others partially (you appear to fall into this camp, according to your success story), yet they just seem to stay where they are. This is frustration, which helps put the T in TMS, perpetuating the cycle.
If you follow the Sarno theory and it works, I wish you all the best. But if you've been at it for a long time and aren't seeing the results, my post was for you. Anxiety-prone people are intelligent. Let them look at the statistics for insight therapy versus CBT in curing nervous disorders. Then they can choose which tool in the toolbox works best.
What happens in Sarno's own office? If people struggle for a while, they go to psychotherapy. And what is the result? Read for yourself in The Divided Mind. I don't have my copy handy, but success is less than half, and certainly doesn't support his 90% cure assertions. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 13:15:06
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Hi Kristin,
I am dealing with a son that is anxious as well. He is only seven. I have had numerous discussions with him when I see his fears dictate his behavior and have pushed him a bit here and there to attempt things or participate in things that he would not have if left on his own. This is a difficult thing for me.
He wants to go to a dance this Friday at school. I asked him what he wanted to do at the dance and he didn't know. I asked if he thought he would dance, and he said no. Why not? Because people might laugh at me and that would hurt my feelings. As far as I know he hasn't been publicly humiliated in his young life, but could've seen it happen to someone else and felt for them. Anxious people do sometimes feel the emotions they think they detect in others.
There are counselors everywhere who specialize in treating adolescents with anxiety problems, and the numbers as you might guess with further breakdown in families is skyrocketing. Perhaps ask his guidance counselor at school for a list of professionals. I personally think there is immense value in finding someone who went through it themselves to talk it over with because they can almost finish his sentences, so often have they thought the same thoughts. That can be a bit more difficult to find, however. |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 13:55:28
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| so, a solution is to go into cbt, tell them you suffer from anxiety (when its really back pain) and then proceed from there? |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 14:25:56
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Hi skizzik,
Is this sarcasm or is there really a question here? |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 15:21:13
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Hillbilly: look at my posts from this past year and you'll see i struggled with some of the same questions as you wrt Sarno's theories--i have serious problems with some fundamental aspects. I too, am prone to anxiety and that was a key aspect in my most recent 'relapse' which involved psoriasis and congestion (i have overcome them to a large extent). I also prefer the term AOS.
That being said, dont fool yourself into thinking you've got the answer. It's a lot more complex than just "anxiety causes TMS"
quote:
the brain picking capillaries near a herniated disc to try to trick you and other such nonsense.
That's a rash statement. If ive learned anything from years of dealing with this syndrome, its: NEVER underestimate the human mind's capacity to trick etc. I like the description i found on this forum of TMS describing it as an entity, a "gremlin", because that is exactly how it behaves in my and many others' cases. Shortly after this latest relapse, i read Schiffer's book "Of Two Minds" which describes how we can have two completely independent minds functioning at one time, with the possibility that one hemisphere might actually undermine or sabatoge the others' interests. I have found in my case there is no question of the existence of this dual functionality. If you've done any amount of dreaming, i would hope that you would also recognize how powerful and important the subconcious can be. Certainly, anxiety ties into all this, but it is not the whole story.
Anxiety can be caused by previous stress, or present. If its past, then just "calming" down isnt going to address those previous sources, which will continue to feed your anxiety despite any attempt you make to deal with it. Recognizing those subconcious sources is essential in many cases. Don't generalize based on your own particular experience.
I too have serious doubts about the specifics of distraction therapy. Hopefully, new blood will somedaay sort the specifics out. But, ill give you one exaample (of many) that has convinced me personally that distraction from subconcious stress plays a role:
I suffered from CTS 12 yrs ago (coincidentally with sciatica). Doctors wanted to perform 4 surgeries on me! My symptom involved complete numbness of my forearms at night during sleep (or so i thought). Couldn't for the life of me figure how it could be a "distraction" since i was sleeping! But after contemplating Sarno's idea, i figured it out: my arms werent numb when i was asleep, they numbed when i was awake and conscious.
I realized the numbness distracted me the moment i woke, which prevented me from recalling my dreams. When i then made a concious effort to recall my dreams and ignore the numbness, it went away in 2 days, for good! I seriously doubt that your explanation explains this better than Sarno, but who knows? Just dont generalize based on your own experience. As many others pointed out to me over the past year, Its valuable to look at the big picture. |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 15:40:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Hi skizzik,
Is this sarcasm or is there really a question here?
no no no, sorry, I can see how that can be construed. Totally serious.
I guess when I scout therapists on the phone, or have seen them, you can tell they're wondering "why arn't you at a back doctor"?
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 15:44:43
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Ok, stanfr,
There is a book out called, Taming Your Gremlin, which describes in detail, how to deal with anxiety. Many call anxiety disorders their gremlin, so thanks for making my point. The video out on youtube that features Dr. Schubiner (a trained TMS doctor) describing the mental workings of TMS (and other symptoms) is the exact same as the video on the website of a prominent anxiety recovery system.
It describes the amygdala, the autonomic nervous system, the feedback loop, everything. Dr. Brady refers to this as the HPA axis. The amygdala being part of the hypothalamus. I'm not an idiot, nor a zealot, nor did I come here to argue. If you can't stop your suffering through the outlined treatment plan in Sarno's books, why not look at other explanations?
Why do people with various symptoms think they are all trickery? The result is a trick because we start paying attention to it and thinking we are in danger, when in fact ALL nervous symptoms are harmless, though can be excruciating and last a long time. Dr. Claire Weekes describes this beautifully. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 15:51:50
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| People should look at other explanations and methods. I did. Just cautioning you that there is more to the subconcious that you are giving credit to. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 16:28:55
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quote:
others partially (you appear to fall into this camp, according to your success story)
I have no idea what you're talking about here. I recovered from every one of my pain symptoms within weeks of starting Sarno's program. I did post-pain recovery experience some depression and anxiety which I'm dealing with through insight psychotherapy. It's pretty straight-up Sarno all the way.
As I said, I think it's great you found success through another method, but I think you should be aware that the holes you think you're picking in TMS theory aren't necessarily there.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 17:20:24
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"stopped having knee pain and my upper-back pain has receded a great deal. I still get it some, perhaps because it seems “legitimate” to me to be tense there. I’m currently working on challenging that."
This is in direct contradiction to your last statement, and I pulled the above from your success story post. So unless someone else posted this under your username, it is you who are poking holes in your own assertions. |
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painintheneck
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 17:25:40
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Hillbilly,
I am one who has the neck and upper back pain. I also have a panic and anxiety disorder. Both issues began at the same time. I've been 10 years trying to find someting to help get my life back. Off and on I get relief but it never lasts. I do tense when I am stressed or angry or afraid and the symptoms begin. I'd love to hear more about your treatment and how you are doing now if you don't mind sharing. I will check back here or you can contact me via my profile by email. |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 17:38:49
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Interesting topic. I think the problem here is that people are being a little too concrete. You are ALL right. It is undeniable that repressed childhood traumas and past experiences can, and often do, cause TMS. Studies have shown that a very high percentage of fibromyalgia (i.e., TMS) patients suffered from sexual or physical abuse as children. In reading through the forum and reviewing many of the case studies of TMS patients, you will find many that recovered only when they realized that past experiences, that were not presently "conscious" to them, could be causing their pain. Interestingly, many of these patients had tried stress/anxiety reduction approaches in the past without any success.
That being said, it is undeniable that current stresses and anxiety can also cause TMS. This is a simple extension of the common occurrence of getting a headache after a long stressful day at work. I think Dr. Dave Clarke, in his book They Can't Find Anything Wrong!, does an excellent job describing the various types of "stress" that can underlie TMS (or "stress illness" as he refers to it). They are (1) Childhood stress; (2) Stress occurring now; (3) Stress from a traumatic event; (4) Depression; and (5) Anxiety disorders. I know that I, personally, have experienced (and successfully overcome) TMS that was a result of a few of these factors. Hope this helps.
Best,
MK |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 17:39:13
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Painintheneck,
I treated my anxiety problem with coaching from a therapist who specialized in cognitive restructuring. I don't have a hint of symptoms anymore, even though I am under tremendous strain from time to time. Anxiety and its resultant body aches and pains and strange thoughts and such can be cured. Perhaps Sarno and psychoanalysis can help with this, but it is my opinion that it is like using a screwdriver to change a light bulb. Just look into this type of therapy as mentioned above and you will be fine. Your pain is just a symptom of constant tension, and your fixation on it becomes the biggest source of tension, often being worse than what you were worrying about when the symptoms hit. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 18:49:08
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Maybe because my success story is old. I haven't looked at it in a while. When I wrote it I was still having symptoms; I don't anymore.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 19:02:41
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| hill, did you get my response? we posted at the same time. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 19:54:09
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Skiz,
Yes, search for a therapist in your area who specializes in treatment of anxiety disorders. I wouldn't assume this, however, without talking this out with my medical person first. Diagnosis is really pretty easy, though, given a history of chronic distressing symptoms that came during a period of stress for which there isn't a good explanation in medical terms, many tests that come back negative, etc.
Again, I wanted to talk to someone who stared it down and won, not just a theorist repeating from a textbook. That took some searching, but I have a lifelong friend because of it. I love my therapist like a sister. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 20:08:56
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quote:
I did, and it did not "take my nervous system months to calm down".
quote:
Maybe because my success story is old. I haven't looked at it in a while. When I wrote it I was still having symptoms; I don't anymore.
Ms. Chomsky:
Perhaps in light of your restatement, it did indeed take a while for your system to completely release the tension habit after all. There are months and months between your claims of being pain free on this forum prior to making the above statement, so your credibility with me is zero right now. There are people suffering in hellish misery here, so I don't care for this sideshow anymore. If you feel better using Sarno, congrats. THERE ARE MANY WHO DON'T AFTER MONTHS AND EVEN YEARS OF TRYING. Get out of the way, please, and let me talk to THEM! I have nothing else to say to you. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 20:08:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
So I started to read about anxiety conditions. These, as opposed to Dr. Sarno's work, have been scientifically studied and well-documented in the literature for decades.
Keep in mind that if your looking at approaches with longer research paths than "TMS" there are a lot more out there than just anxiety. Alexithymia theory is glaringly similar with over 30 years research, and conversion syndrome, in one form or another, has been written about for over 100 years. Both are based on studies of a much more complex spectrum of emotions that simple anxiety.
While anxiety alone may provide an adequate explanation for many, to state that TMS is "a byproduct of anxiety disorders, nothing more and nothing less" is an oversimplification. You only have to look at the diversity of those experiencing this "syndrome" to see that there's more going on.
That's not to say that anxiety doesn't explain the majority of symptoms for a large number of people. And it's certainly not to say that Sarno is right about everything. But anxiety is just another theory to try out for a fit -- and just like "TMS" the theory won't fit everyone. |
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Science or Sarno?
