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fluffhead
USA
8 Posts |
 Posted - 01/17/2008 : 23:00:30
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Hey,
I'm planning on seeing a TMS therapist in Los Angeles, but can't choose. Does anyone know anything about Don Dubin or Arnold Bloch? Are they both high quality? Any info would be great! Thanks! |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 09:35:48
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| I've had eight phone sessions with Don Dubin and like him a lot. He's very insightful and works hard. Prior to Don, I worked for nine months with a Sarno therapist in NYC and got nowhere. It only added to my internal rage |
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fluffhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 16:46:21
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Truenorth,
That gives me some confidence in my decision. I have been trying to treat myself for a while, and have only been successful for certain symptoms. I'm planning on doing phone sessions as well. Did Don Dubin help you in terms of pain (not just understanding yourself and your unconscious better)? I can only afford a small number of sessions, so I'm looking for something that would be effective in 4-6 sessions. What's your opinion? Thanks
Also, for anyone else who is familiar with LA therapists--let me know your thoughts. I know Don Dubin is supposed to be most experienced, but i like Arnold Bloch-- I spoke to him, and he seemed quite perceptive. Though he doesn't have as much TMS experience (i think only 20% of his patients are TMS). |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 23:55:37
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Arnold Bloch was my therapist. One of the best people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. He and I still talk once in a while. He's a very patient man who experienced TMS himself so he knows the deal.
I don't know much about Don Dubin. All I can say is that we personally didn't click when I spoke to him. That's why it surprises me that people hold him in high regard, but he might work for you.
I'm sure if you talk to David Shecter,you can get a list of other therapists in the L.A. area. DOn and Arnold aren't the only two available.There's about 7 altogether in L.A and surrounding areas.
GOod luck whatever your choice.
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"It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment." Armchairlinguist(?) |
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fluffhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 19:08:48
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Hmmm, yes, I know there are lots of therapists in the LA area. I've spoken with a few, but liked Arnold Bloch, and Dr. Schechter told me that Don Dubin is the most experienced. So, i have it narrowed down to them. I'm glad to hear that i'm not the only one who didn't quite click with Don. I'm torn between not clicking, and knowing that he's supposed to be most experienced, and most of his patients are TMS. Though, I talked to Don tonight--he told me that it can take up to 6 months to recover, and he doesn't think that I have a good chance at success with only a limited number of sessions. He originally told me something completely different. Arnold told me to try 6 sessions first, which seems reasonable.
Are arnold's sessions streamlined so that it's not just long, deep psychoanalysis (i can't afford that many sessions)?
Can you tell me approximately how long (and how many sessions) it took you to get significant improvement/a high degree of recovery?
Thanks, everyone for your help.
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 21:56:48
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Try and work with him about the money. I think he would be open to it. It's hard to say about the number of sessions because I don't know how bad your TMS is. I had severe TMS and he took about 10 sessions for me to see anything move at all. But we had to do a lot of work. It really depends on you in the end. You have to basically immerse yourself into "you" to get anywhere IMO. I think a lot of pressure gets put on the therapists to get you out of it somehow, ya know?
It would be my opinion that someone who has stubborn TMS give themselves more sessions than 6. Six seems kind of low. But some people might just need that. Remember , I'm talking as someone who had severe chronic TMS for years and in many body parts like Fibro, so I wasn't the norm, I don't think.
His sessions last about 50 to 60 minutes.I had about 16 sessions with him, and could have gone more. I'm by no means "done". I just learned enough to do it myself now,that's the only difference. He agrees that I developed to a place where I didn't really need him.
All I can say is that if you choose to do this, you HAVE to make it a daily, hourly practice. You have to completely look at yourself and your philosophies in a new manner and really work at it.
Arnold is a real understanding and calm person who takes his work very seriously because he cares about people. In my opinion, I have never met a therapist as cool as him. He helped me through a complete collapse a couple times. I would say, go with someone you click with or else it can hinder the whole experience. If it's him, good luck.
Best wishes on your recovery.
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"It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment." Armchairlinguist(?) |
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fluffhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 22:15:37
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Kevin,
I definitely agree that I need to commit and work at it--i already work at it daily. Right now, I can only afford 6 sessions (with a discount), but if I see improvement, then I will consider more. My TMS symptoms are not extremely severe, but there are a lot of them (hard to keep track of). And i don't think my psychological issues are that extreme either--though of course i have some. So, hopefully I will see some early improvement. I really appreciate your opinion! I hope that you continue to improve as well. |
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 23:39:55
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I had no idea that there were therapists who knew about TMS or specialized in it.
Where can I find a list of these people? I live in the SF Bay area. Any recommendations near San Mateo county?
I will be starting with a "regular" therapist next week to deal with various issues. But in addition to her, perhaps it would be helpful to talk with a TMS therapist. How much do they usually charge (ballpark)? I assume that none are covered under insurance. |
Edited by - positivevibes on 01/19/2008 23:43:35 |
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fluffhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 10:29:22
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There are TMS therapists and TMS doctors sprinkled around the U.S. You're lucky that there seems to be some doctors and perhaps therapists in your area. I got a list from Dr. Schechter (the TMS dr i'm seeing in LA), and it appears that there are two therapists in SF:
Stephen Khamsi, PhD: 707-996-9434 (had just one tms patient)
Carol Saturansky, PhD: 415-441-5485
Also, there is a TMS dr. in the SF area:
Parvez Fatteh, MD
24301 Southland Dr, #411
Hayward, CA 94545
www.pain-medicine.net
(510) 265-5795
There's a directory of TMS drs and therapists on http://www.tarpityoga.com/directory.html, though the therapists i mentioned don't seem to be there; i'd call them though.
The therapists may be covered by your insurance. Most of them are just normal psychologists, who along the way found out about TMS. The question is whether they are in your insurance--i'd ask. I'm not sure about those therapists, but it seems that the prices are around $125-$150 per session (which is quite hard to sustain), though some therapists are flexible if you're paying out of pocket.
I hope you find what you're looking for! |
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fluffhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 11:47:44
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| I forgot to mention, that most therapists will do phone sessions, if it's too far to reach them, or if you don't like the therapists in your area. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 19:09:12
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positivevibes,
I see a therapist in San Mateo County. She's insight-based and acquainted with John Bradshaw's work, but not familiar with TMS except intsofar as I acquainted her with the material. I started seeing her when I was already pain-free so TMS per se isn't really what I work on with her, more the emotional work. If you're interested in getting her info, let me know and I can send it to you.
Otherwise, you might check with
1) Center for Creative Growth in Berkeley (more insight-based Bradshaw therapists)
2) One of the therapists mentioned in this thread:
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2391
2)
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 08:30:53
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Fluffhead,
Based on my experiences with two TMS therapists, I think you're approaching it the wrong way. Both of them would tell you it's counterproductive to focus IN ANY WAY on the number of sessions, when will I start to feel better, etc. The focus should be on the journey and not the destination, which is admittedly hard to do when you're in pain and do not have deep pockets.
Unless you are more persuasive than I am, I don't think Don Dubin or anyone for that matter will give you more than a 5% discount. |
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fluffhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 18:42:41
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free2bme,
I think that Arnold Bloch sometimes does phone sessions. Have you spoken to therapists in the LA area? They seem pretty receptive to therapy over the phone. Though i think that they might first want you to get officially diagnosed by seeing a TMS doctor. Also, i'd just give Don Dubin a call, you can probably make an appointment with him in a few weeks, though i'm not sure of how packed he is.
Truenorth,
I definitely see how it can be counterintuitive to focus on how soon I will get better. Now that i've made my decision that seeking treatment is realistic, i'll try not to think that way. Though i definitely had to realistically investigate my options before delving in. But thank you, i'll keep your advice in mind |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 20:34:43
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free2Bme,
I just finished my ninth phone session tonite with Don and I'm beginning to have doubts if I'm going to continue. Like the other therapist (a Sarno sanctioned one in NYC), he strays from Sarno. For instance, he says I have to "love myself" or I will not get better, and more troubling, that I will not become pain free if I have, as my goal, to become pain free. My head was spinning. He wants me to just "be" and accept the pain, without any hope of getting better. He says the pain is the tension of me wanting to "fix" something and until I stop that, I'll continue to be in pain. Hey, beam me up, Scotty. I don't know where to go with this. Maybe he's right. I have to sleep on it.
Anyway, I think the general concept of phone therapy is a viable one. It all depends on the chemistry one has with the therapist. |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 22:25:53
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Truenorth,
I assume this is Don Dubin telling you this?
Guess what? He's right. WHat he is telling you sounds totally "illogical" to you right now because you're not hearing him. Arnold Bloch would have told you the same thing also. There's a lot to "loving yourself",especially to someone who doesn't feel the full weight of that concept. ANd accepting the pain is a bridge you must come to.
It's not giving in to the pain, it's not letting the pain have control,it's not saying to yourself that you WILL BE in pain forever. It's letting go of the control issue with pain that makes that very pain amplified.
HE is telling you that because he knows that our need to have "the fix" is one of the very root causes of the whole cycle being perpetuated in the first place.
Listen to him with an open mind. Like I said to you before, you have to change your WHOLE WAY of thinking about this. Your thought process ,mental habits, defenses, is what got you here. You have to recondition the mind and take on principles that seem really foreign to you. "Loving yourself" or being compassionate with oneself is a concept we NEED to get down to start releasing some of the negative "tension" that hangs in the background on a minute by minute basis.
You ever hate yourself?? I mean truly get to a point where you don't want to be in your skin anymore and look at the things you say and just get tired of your own voice? Now think of the way your body feels when you have that type of thinking. Your chest feels heavier, your stomach feels dizzy, you feel a lump in your core that feels like you can lash out at any moment. WHat do you think that does to your Autonomic Nervous System after years of constant bombardment? It becomes so second nature to your body that it CANT feel at ease or relaxed. Even if you are sitting in a hot tub or getting a massage or having the best sex of your life.
These things are very real dude, and nothing to be taken lightly. Think on it and try to remember that DOn Dubin has a lot of experience in this field. If worse comes to worse you can always stop sessions with him and speak to someone like Arnold Bloch. But he will also tell you what Don did.
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"It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment." Armchairlinguist(?) |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 07:59:06
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la kevin,
Thanks for the post. I agree in general, for everyone, that the concept of loving oneself is important for one's emotional health. I just ask you to cite one instance in any of Sarno's writings where he mentions that the concept of self love was crucial to recovery. I may have missed it but I don't remember seeing it. |
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qso
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 10:32:45
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I think it is implicit in Sarno's writings. The subconscious has child-like qualities (according to him and many before him) because it is accumulated brain qualities from birth residing there. It is that part of the brain that needs self-love (I think) not the part of the brain that is you now. The child part of the brain craves it because that's what we see in actual children right?
In japanese there is a word for an illness that loosely translates as "death from over-work". I was once on a train in Tokyo and saw an intriguing poster showing a middle-aged man who was looking very sad. It was intriguing because advertisements usually have happy people on them. I asked my japanese friend to translate the poster for me. He said, "That's warning people about that illness (death from over-work). It says 'I love my family, I love my job, I love my friends, but I forgot to love myself'". I didn't really understand it at the time but maybe that japanese word is the equivalent of TMS (the death part is not literal, lost in translation). |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 14:14:24
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quote:
I just ask you to cite one instance in any of Sarno's writings where he mentions that the concept of self love was crucial to recovery. I may have missed it but I don't remember seeing it.
Once you have tried Sarno's suggested methods for getting rid of pain, and they don't work, he recommends therapy. At that point, what you need transcends what Sarno can recommend. Not every single person with TMS symptoms necessarily needs therapy and needs to learn to love themselves and understand themselves and feel their emotions. But if you're on the phone with a therapist and the therapist is saying that, chances are it's true and what Sarno does or doesn't recommend for everyone is irrelevant.
I started work with an insight therapist (not Freudian but based on work with the inner child) and have been working on similar things. This was after I was already pain-free, but I became depressed, so I was basically still having TMS equivalents. I'm doing much better now and can testify that learning to love yourself is a long and often painful process, but totally worth it for your future. I don't really use that term, love myself, but tend to think of it as being my authentic self and doing the things I need and want to do and being okay with that.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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TMS therapists
